The 'war on snipers'

[trtk 81]

The game is slowly becoming more and more unfriendly toward snipers. There is the resting weapon sway introduced in .46, which makes shooting from over 400m a luck-based endeavor. There's also the high dispersion - relative to the weapon's actual accuracy and relative to what's useful as a sniping platform - which places the Mosin's COF at something larger than a player's head at as early as 500M, when in reality the Mosin was mechanically accurate at that level out to 1000m. There are also some miscellaneous factors. The mosin bullet does the same damage as an AK round, layered clothing and helmets can absorb two full mosin shots and protect the wearer, vast reduction of 7.62x51mm spawn rates, etc.

 

All of this is symptomatic of a negative developer attitude towards what has long been a beloved playstyle. Read this developer post where it is plainly stated the developers are trying to make sniping prohibitively difficult: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/208692-do-you-think-the-lrs-will-be-removed-from-mosin-when/

 

 

[...] has the end result of making it easier for there to be more leet snip0rs killing other players at long range - something we're not interested in encouraging at the moment. 

 

Why gimp a perfectly legitimate and fun style of combat? They are trying to cater to groups of people who will charge heedless through areas, then complain that sniping is unfair when they are killed for their egregious mistakes in playstyle. This is an attempt to reduce the game's combat to close-range musclebrawls where whoever has more numbers on their side, or the ping/gear advantage, will win. This is an attempt to casualize the game. Close range combat is not fun. 90% of 1v1 CQB encounters end with both players dead because of the terrible netcode, and 90% of group CQB encounters end with the larger group winning.

 

This is not what the players asked for. There were no complaints about how sniping is destroying the game. The design team needs to get out of their heads and listen to what the community wants rather than following their own unwanted and harmful whims. They can start by reverting the terrible weapon sway which occurs even while prone and rested.

Edited September 8, 2014 by trtk

[Grimey Rick 3417]

+1

The weapon sway is real.

[Re-Patch 47]

I completely agree with you! :(
Been sniping since CS 1.3 or something and it drives me fucking nuts that people survive 1-3 neck/higher chest shots because of that stupid item armor protection system.

[General Zod 1118]

The weapon sway is realistic

There

And no mosin ammo is not very rare, not that you need more than 40-60 of them anyway, and that's if you live long enough. 

Not to mention that shooting at 500m should be difficult, since you are holding the rifle in your hands, it's not rested on something. It's not like in the move "Shooter" when the guy stands on a fucking boat on a middle of lake holding a rifle in his hands and lands head shots. 

Damage absorption and any dispersion are a different story. 

Edited September 8, 2014 by General Zod

[Etherimp 1323]

The game is slowly becoming more and more unfriendly toward snipers. There is the resting weapon sway introduced in .46, which makes shooting from over 400m a luck-based endeavor. There's also the high dispersion - relative to the weapon's actual accuracy and relative to what's useful as a sniping platform - which places the Mosin's COF at something larger than a player's head at as early as 500M, when in reality the Mosin was mechanically accurate at that level out to 1000m. There are also some miscellaneous factors. The mosin bullet does the same damage as an AK round, layered clothing and helmets can absorb two full mosin shots and protect the wearer, vast reduction of 7.62x51mm spawn rates, etc.

 

All of this is symptomatic of a negative developer attitude towards what has long been a beloved playstyle. Read this developer post where it is plainly stated the developers are trying to make sniping prohibitively difficult: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/208692-do-you-think-the-lrs-will-be-removed-from-mosin-when/

 

 

 

 

Why gimp a perfectly legitimate and fun style of combat? They are trying to cater to groups of people who will charge heedless through areas, then complain that sniping is unfair when they are killed for their egregious mistakes in playstyle. This is an attempt to reduce the game's combat to close-range musclebrawls where whoever has more numbers on their side, or the ping/gear advantage, will win. This is an attempt to casualize the game. Close range combat is not fun. 90% of 1v1 CQB encounters end with both players dead because of the terrible netcode, and 90% of group CQB encounters end with the larger group winning.

 

This is not what the players asked for. There were no complaints about how sniping is destroying the game. The design team needs to get out of their heads and listen to what the community wants rather than following their own unwanted and harmful whims. They can start by reverting the terrible weapon sway which occurs even while prone and rested.

 

 

While I don't 100% agree with some of the developer decisions, I will say that sniping, while fun for the sniper, is not a good game mechanic. Why? Because there's very little counter-play involved.

 

If you have a scope that sees where I cannot see, and fires at ranges that I cannot fire, then all other things being equal, you win 100% of the time without me even knowing you're there. You can end my character without me being able to do anything about it.

 

Now compare that to CQB, which you say has netcode issues, (which it assuredly does)... I disagree however on "whoever has the most numbers or the most gear, wins".. I cannot tell you how many times I have won fire fights when out-numbered or out-geared.. Gear in FPS games doesn't really make a huge difference. Skill wins CQB matchups. 

 

Don't get me wrong - I snipe and use assault rifles and shotguns and I love the Blaze.. So I'm not against one play style or the other. I'm just stating my opinion mixed with some facts. One of my favorite loadouts lately is a Mosin with an LRS and a double-barrel sawed off shotgun for close range encounters.

 

I do agree however that a Mosin firing 7.62x51 should be a 1 or 2 shot kill... Maybe 3 shots if you hit nothing but extremities. 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Etherimp

[AP_Norris 1018]

I like that they're making long range shots harder is good.

I don't think the idea of picking someone off at long range with little to no consequences suits DayZ.

It's very inpersonal and destroys what I enjoy when I'm in a fire fight, being able to yell at my enemy.

Warn them to back the hell off before I kill them.

While maybe sway could be made a bit more realistic while prone I think this should be done when more variables can affect bullet travel, like wind and environment.

I'm all for them lowering gun dispersion and stuff too.

Also making people use the PU scope on the mosin, since the LRS has weaver rails.

But hopefully when all that is done shots over a couple hundred metres will require some time and thought.

Hopefully the bullet sounds will attract a lot more zombies too.

It's not about making it hard, it's about making it realistic/ authentic I believe.

I think hitting shots accurately over 300m requires quite a bit of skill and experience, not that I have any experience past small bore backyard shooting though.

[trtk 81]

There

And no mosin ammo is not very rare, not that you need more than 40-60 of them anyway, and that's if you live long enough. 

Not to mention that shooting at 500m should be difficult, since you are holding the rifle in your hands, it's not rested on something. It's not like in the move "Shooter" when the guy stands on a fucking boat on a middle of lake holding a rifle in his hands and lands head shots. 

Damage absorption and any dispersion are a different story. 

 

The weapon sway absolutely is not realistic. I can tell you with sureness that no one without serious neurological disorders is unable to hold a rifle still while prone in real life. It goes all over the place now. It is a shoe-horned in, artificial way to gimp snipers.

 

The rest of your post is just excuses and ambiguous half-gripes - what do you mean it's not 'that rare'? I said that it's vastly more rare than it was, which is a fact. Whether it's 'that rare' is subjective. And you say that your rifle isn't rested on anything while you're prone... what? It's rested on the ground, like you. Even more securely if it's on a bipod.

[boneboys 7988]

Have not noticed a problem myself, when I play on my own I hunt snipers (with a score of 7 to date), mostly around Cherno / Balota, the last one a few days ago in Elektro.

 

When playing in my group we always have two snipers watching from afar as the rest of the team go in to loot, this has proved to be efficient.

I will take a closer look and see what all the fuss is about but to be honest as I said above I have not noticed anything that I would call problematic.

[trtk 81]

While I don't 100% agree with some of the developer decisions, I will say that sniping, while fun for the sniper, is not a good game mechanic. Why? Because there's very little counter-play involved.

 

If you have a scope that sees where I cannot see, and fires at ranges that I cannot fire, then all other things being equal, you win 100% of the time without me even knowing you're there. You can end my character without me being able to do anything about it.

 

I understand why you say this, but it's just plain wrong. There is no 'hard counter' in this game, like your example of scopes and ranges - anyone can be outsmarted and killed. You must play to the enemy's weakness. That sniper may seem invincible from 800m, but sneak up behind them and take advantage of their low rate of fire, scoped tunnel vision, and low weapon dexterity. Sniper killing uses a different skillset from CQB stuff. It is cerebral and focused on knowing where they might be, predicting their movements, playing off their expectations, etc. - but because it is more intrigued than 'point makarov at enemy, click repeatedly', new players get frustrated and complain that it is unfair. It is not.

 

You should understand that whenever you die to a sniper, it may feel unfair, but there was a world of things you could've done.

Edited September 8, 2014 by trtk

[General Zod 1118]

While I don't 100% agree with some of the developer decisions, I will say that sniping, while fun for the sniper, is not a good game mechanic. Why? Because there's very little counter-play involved.

 

If you have a scope that sees where I cannot see, and fires at ranges that I cannot fire, then all other things being equal, you win 100% of the time without me even knowing you're there. You can end my character without me being able to do anything about it

Welcome to the world of dayz, where fair does not matter. I have a mosin and you stopped within my range ? Too bad mate you are dead. 

Same goes when I have a mosin and run into you holding an AKM. Too bad for me because mosin sucks in CQB, I am dead.

Another example, I am a fresh spawn and run into a guy with an axe, he kills me, is it fair ? No, but that's dayz. 

When you are in the area known for sniper activity, such as berezino, take precautions, avoid open spaces, standing in plain sights, when out in the open, spring with zig-zags to make yourself harder to hit. 

Edited September 8, 2014 by General Zod

[Etherimp 1323]

The weapon sway absolutely is not realistic. I can tell you with sureness that no one without serious neurological disorders is unable to hold a rifle still while prone in real life. It goes all over the place now. It is a shoe-horned in, artificial way to gimp snipers.

 

The rest of your post is just excuses and ambiguous half-gripes - what do you mean it's not 'that rare'? I said that it's vastly more rare than it was, which is a fact. Whether it's 'that rare' is subjective. And you say that your rifle isn't rested on anything while you're prone... what? It's rested on the ground, like you. Even more securely if it's on a bipod.

 

 

Sounds like you have a broken arm. Always carry a splint/morphine and use it every time you notice major sway.

[trtk 81]

Sounds like you have a broken arm. Always carry a splint/morphine and use it every time you notice major sway.

 

Pretty sure there's a huge sway regardless of your arm health.

[OptimumVision 60]

The game is slowly becoming more and more unfriendly toward snipers. There is the resting weapon sway introduced in .46, which makes shooting from over 400m a luck-based endeavor. There's also the high dispersion - relative to the weapon's actual accuracy and relative to what's useful as a sniping platform - which places the Mosin's COF at something larger than a player's head at as early as 500M, when in reality the Mosin was mechanically accurate at that level out to 1000m. There are also some miscellaneous factors. The mosin bullet does the same damage as an AK round, layered clothing and helmets can absorb two full mosin shots and protect the wearer, vast reduction of 7.62x51mm spawn rates, etc.

 

All of this is symptomatic of a negative developer attitude towards what has long been a beloved playstyle. Read this developer post where it is plainly stated the developers are trying to make sniping prohibitively difficult: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/208692-do-you-think-the-lrs-will-be-removed-from-mosin-when/

 

 

 

 

Why gimp a perfectly legitimate and fun style of combat? They are trying to cater to groups of people who will charge heedless through areas, then complain that sniping is unfair when they are killed for their egregious mistakes in playstyle. This is an attempt to reduce the game's combat to close-range musclebrawls where whoever has more numbers on their side, or the ping/gear advantage, will win. This is an attempt to casualize the game. Close range combat is not fun. 90% of 1v1 CQB encounters end with both players dead because of the terrible netcode, and 90% of group CQB encounters end with the larger group winning.

 

This is not what the players asked for. There were no complaints about how sniping is destroying the game. The design team needs to get out of their heads and listen to what the community wants rather than following their own unwanted and harmful whims. They can start by reverting the terrible weapon sway which occurs even while prone and rested.

If they removed it, it looks like they'd make the PU scope basically the next LRS so I don't think you should worry about that.

 

Also I'm pretty sure that adding more modern rifles is helping people.

[Etherimp 1323]

I understand why you say this, but it's just plain wrong. There is no 'hard counter' in this game, like your example of scopes and ranges - anyone can be outsmarted and killed. You must play to the enemy's weakness. That sniper may seem invincible from 800m, but sneak up behind them and take advantage of their low rate of fire, scoped tunnel vision, and low weapon dexterity. Sniper killing uses a different skillset from CQB stuff. It is cerebral and focused on knowing where they might be, predicting their movements, playing off their expectations, etc. - but because it is more intrigued than 'point makarov at enemy, click repeatedly', new players get frustrated and complain that it is unfair. It is not.

 

You should understand that whenever you die to a sniper, it may feel unfair, but there was a world of things you could've done.

 

 

 

Welcome to the world of dayz, where fair does not matter. I have a mosin and you stopped within my range ? Too bad mate you are dead. 

Same goes when I have a mosin and run into you holding an AKM. Too bad for me because mosin sucks in CQB, I am dead.

Another example, I am a fresh spawn and run into a guy with an axe, he kills me, is it fair ? No, but that's dayz. 

When you are in the area known for sniper activity, such as berezino, take precipitations, avoid open spaces, standing in plain sights, when out in the open, spring with zig-zags to make yourself harder to hit.

 

You don't have to explain this to me.. I understand it on many levels and I don't feel that FPS games should be "counter" based.. My point still stands - it's a bad game mechanic because there's no counter-play. This is how game developers think and this is how they are trained.. And they are RIGHT, theoretically. It just becomes a matter of whether the community wants realism or balanced game-play. If you make sniper rifles super effective, they will be used and abused and it will become sniperfest 2015 up in DayZ SA.. And if the community is okay with that, COOL.. But it could hurt the overall game, and if devs feel it will, then they will attempt to balance it. I think the Dev team is trying to balance it in a "Realistic" and "authentic" way.. Which is good.

[Etherimp 1323]

Pretty sure there's a huge sway regardless of your arm health.

 

Pretty sure you're wrong.

[trtk 81]

You don't have to explain this to me.. I understand it on many levels and I don't feel that FPS games should be "counter" based.. My point still stands - it's a bad game mechanic because there's no counter-play. This is how game developers think and this is how they are trained.. And they are RIGHT, theoretically. It just becomes a matter of whether the community wants realism or balanced game-play. If you make sniper rifles super effective, they will be used and abused and it will become sniperfest 2015 up in DayZ SA.. And if the community is okay with that, COOL.. But it could hurt the overall game, and if devs feel it will, then they will attempt to balance it. I think the Dev team is trying to balance it in a "Realistic" and "authentic" way.. Which is good.

 

I just explained to you how there is counter play. You saying there's no counter to sniping because you bulldoze through sniper hotspots carring CQB weapons is like me saying there's no counter to CQB because I charge into elektro with a mosin and try to outgun people with AKMs and M4s. You are not playing to your weapon's strengths, yet you blame your deaths on balance. That's just sour grapes. Sniping is a good part of the game and does not deserve the treatment it is being given.

[Evil Minion 943]

Why gimp a perfectly legitimate and fun style of combat?

Because it was unrealistically strong and needed to be brought back to normal. In fact not nerfing snipers would have casualized the game by making long range kills far too easy to accomplish. Sway made sniping way more fun for me because its less point&click (as it is in casual games). Its harder, its more interesting to play and its more rewarding if you manage to hit.

Dispersion is a little different as the player has neither control nor feedback here - however if done right dispersion should not affect your ability to kill your target within your weapons effective range. And for the Mosin thats below 1000 meters (even smaller if you actually want to hit the head). Now I would really like it if they changed attachments in way that they (apart from some muzzle attachments) don't mess with dispersion but rather with sway, recoil and dexterity.

And where does this "Mosin bullet does the same damage than AK round" stuff come from? As far as my experience (practical as well as theoretical) goes the Mosin hits harder - did they change something here?

[Etherimp 1323]

I just explained to you how there is counter play. You saying there's no counter to sniping because you bulldoze through sniper hotspots carring CQB weapons is like me saying there's no counter to CQB because I charge into elektro with a mosin and try to outgun people with AKMs and M4s. You are not playing to your weapon's strengths, yet you blame your deaths on balance. That's just sour grapes. Sniping is a good part of the game and does not deserve the treatment it is being given.

 

 

Dude, now you're attacking me.. let me say this again

MY FAVORITE LOADOUT LATELY IS MOSIN WITH LRS + SHOTGUN.

 

I've been playing this game for 2 years (Standalone + >1 year of DayZ Mod).. I was a competitive FPS player, and I've been competitive gaming for 18 years. 

 

I am not whining about dying to snipers. I don't think I have ever died instantly to a mosin sniper. So stop attacking ME and try addressing my argument:

Fact: If you are sniping PROPERLY, the other person does not know you are there.

 

Fact: If you are assaulting someone in CQB, the other person DOES know you are there, or at least has the same capability to see you as you have to see them.

 

Fact: Shooting someone and instantly killing them from 400meters gives them no opportunity to respond or react and instantly ends their characters life.

 

Fact: Shooting someone in CQB requires you to get within the range of THEIR weapon as well, and thus, assuming they are equally skilled, allows them to fire back and attack you equally. This CANNOT BE SAID ABOUT sniping.

 

 

So, while I'm not advocating removing sniping and I'm not whining about dying to snipers, I also recognize that when I snipe someone from 400+ meters with a Mosin, there was LITERALLY nothing they could have done about it EXCEPT to completely avoid the area where a sniper MIGHT be operating.. Except, DayZ is an open-world map and there-for there could be snipers almost anywhere, and GOOD snipers will not be in OBVIOUS spots..

Sniping is a BAD GAME MECHANIC.. It's a BAD GAME MECHANIC for the very same reason it's a GOOD tactic.. Personally, I enjoy TACTICS in gaming, so again, I'm not complaining about sniping.. I'm just saying you're wrong in your thinking.

[trtk 81]

Because it was unrealistically strong and needed to be brought back to normal. In fact not nerfing snipers would have casualized the game by making long range kills far too easy to accomplish. Sway made sniping way more fun for me because its less point&click (as it is in casual games). Its harder, its more interesting to play and its more rewarding if you manage to hit.

Dispersion is a little different as the player has neither control nor feedback here - however if done right dispersion should not affect your ability to kill your target within your weapons effective range. And for the Mosin thats below 1000 meters (even smaller if you actually want to hit the head). Now I would really like it if they changed attachments in way that they (apart from some muzzle attachments) don't mess with dispersion but rather with sway, recoil and dexterity.

And where does this "Mosin bullet does the same damage than AK round" stuff come from? As far as my experience (practical as well as theoretical) goes the Mosin hits harder - did they change something here?

 

This is just a wall of dumb. Yes, they made it more realistic by introducing ridiculous sway which occurs even while prone, having players survive multiple 7.62x51mm rounds through plain clothing, and making the mosin about half as accurate as it actually is.

 

No, that is not what realism means. Please do not tout realism as the reason for the war on snipers, because it is not on your side.

[trtk 81]

Dude, now you're attacking me.. let me say this again

MY FAVORITE LOADOUT LATELY IS MOSIN WITH LRS + SHOTGUN.

 

I've been playing this game for 2 years (Standalone + >1 year of DayZ Mod).. I was a competitive FPS player, and I've been competitive gaming for 18 years. 

 

I am not whining about dying to snipers. I don't think I have ever died instantly to a mosin sniper. So stop attacking ME and try addressing my argument:

Fact: If you are sniping PROPERLY, the other person does not know you are there.

 

Fact: If you are assaulting someone in CQB, the other person DOES know you are there, or at least has the same capability to see you as you have to see them.

 

Fact: Shooting someone and instantly killing them from 400meters gives them no opportunity to respond or react and instantly ends their characters life.

 

Fact: Shooting someone in CQB requires you to get within the range of THEIR weapon as well, and thus, assuming they are equally skilled, allows them to fire back and attack you equally. This CANNOT BE SAID ABOUT sniping.

 

 

So, while I'm not advocating removing sniping and I'm not whining about dying to snipers, I also recognize that when I snipe someone from 400+ meters with a Mosin, there was LITERALLY nothing they could have done about it EXCEPT to completely avoid the area where a sniper MIGHT be operating.. Except, DayZ is an open-world map and there-for there could be snipers almost anywhere, and GOOD snipers will not be in OBVIOUS spots..

Sniping is a BAD GAME MECHANIC.. It's a BAD GAME MECHANIC for the very same reason it's a GOOD tactic.. Personally, I enjoy TACTICS in gaming, so again, I'm not complaining about sniping.. I'm just saying you're wrong in your thinking.

 

Your entire argument is based around 'Sniper players can shoot you from outside your weapon's range, therefore sniping is imbalanced'. This is a bad argument. You are allowed to move as a player. It is down to you to put yourself at your weapon's optimal range, just as the sniper has.

 

As for 'shooting someone and instantly killing them from 400 meters, giving them no opportunity to respond or react' - you understand you can do this at any range, right? Should we give M4s and AKs stupidly high dispersion and sway because players can shoot each other in the back surprisingly?

 

And you understand that it's much more difficult to do this with a sniper, especially with the standalone's move speed?

Edited September 8, 2014 by trtk

[Etherimp 1323]

 

Your entire argument is based around 'Sniper players can shoot you from outside your weapon's range, therefore sniping is imbalanced'. This is a bad argument. You are allowed to move as a player. It is down to you to put yourself at your weapon's optimal range, just as the sniper has.

 

As for 'shooting someone and instantly killing them from 400 meters, giving them no opportunity to respond or react' - you understand you can do this at any range, right? Should we give M4s and AKs stupidly high dispersion and sway because players can shoot each other in the back surprisingly?

 

And you understand that it's much more difficult to do this with a sniper, especially with the standalone's move speed?

 

 

 

You can do it at any range, but only after 400 meters or so can the other person not really have any hope of seeing you. At close range, the other player has equal opportunity to see you as you do them. It's not difficult to hit with a sniper rifle if you're any good and/or you are patient and wait for them to stop.

 

Let's just admit that sniping is over-powered/imbalanced, and move on. I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be imbalanced. I already said that 7.62 damage should be increased. 

Problem is, I think you're judging sway based off having a broken arm...

Edited September 8, 2014 by Etherimp

[Khanarac 252]

You're kinda right. If we didn't abuse the doubleholdbreath-bug, there would be no chance in hitting any target, ever. Sniping often is just shooting someone, missing him and scaring him away. Atleast on the NWA. Most of the time our sniper doesn't bother taking a shot, and he's a great sniper, always has been in dayz and arma. Now with additional lag and still bugged impacts at higher distances (as in: invisible impacts) it's rather luck-based if you hit or not. Esp a moving target.

[trtk 81]

You're completely avoiding the issue and denying reality. Sniping is an imbalanced game mechanic. That's what makes it a good tactic. If it was a shitty tactic, you wouldn't be here arguing for it. If it was a bad tactic, nobody would use it.

 

Just admit that it's imbalanced and we can move on here and discuss how sniping should be implemented. 

 

The only one avoiding anything here is you. I've submitted an argument, you've refused to rebut it and veered off into this new direction, simply repeating your stance and mixing in some terrible logic about how no one could ever argue for sniping just because they consider it a fun and valuable part of the game with a unique playstyle.

Edited September 8, 2014 by trtk

[Etherimp 1323]

You're kinda right. If we didn't abuse the doubleholdbreath-bug, there would be no chance in hitting any target, ever. Sniping often is just shooting someone, missing him and scaring him away. Atleast on the NWA. Most of the time our sniper doesn't bother taking a shot, and he's a great sniper, always has been in dayz and arma. Now with additional lag and still bugged impacts at higher distances (as in: invisible impacts) it's rather luck-based if you hit or not. Esp a moving target.

 

 

If you're missing them you're doing it wrong. Headshots are instant kills. They can't run if they are dead.

[hothtimeblues 128]

I agree. And many many posts have been talking about all this.

It makes no sense to me about how they have no problem adding 100 round drum magazine for m4, we have the 75 round drum mag for AK....... and close quarter combat is an awful, freaking.... mess with the bad netcode.

As the OP states, every single time I've been in close combat with someone, we both end up dead, many times from just one bullet each meaning it's fake that his bullet or my bullet didn't kill one of us first before the other could fire it.

I think it's so stupid how fake the dispersion is after 400 M. I really wonder if it's just harder to make the gun mechanics work better and things will improve later on.

But my god, PVP combat is generally an awful mess in this game. There is only frustration when you PVP, so it amazes me that so many people like to do it. It's obvious that it's only because there is nothing else to do.