Reinvent the Alpha

[kylesaysthings 44]

If you truly had the game's best interest in mind, you'd be creating and maintaining detailed bug reports instead of bitching in this thread. Nothing you post in here is helping anyone do anything.

Reread my posts.  If you still think it's 'bitching' then you should probably brush up on your reading comprehension.  Any opinion that doesn't fall completely in line with yours is not automatically 'bitching'.  Also people are entirely capable of both posting detailed bug reports, AND contributing their feedback to the General Discussion forums.

 

@Ram-bo(since you made your post far more difficult to quote than it needed to be) :P - I have to say that I disagree with the 'beating people over the head' part.  The more pressure, the less opportunity workers have to squander time on things that simply aren't immediately relevant(not always, sure).  I understand things take time, but some of the issues we're looking at are simply taking too long, to where we, as 'testers' are unable to properly test new features since we're stonewalled by unfixed old ones.  Most of us aren't new to games.  Hell, many of us have experience in closed beta testing on previous titles.  When you have people like this speaking out against the pace of the development cycle, then it's at least worth making note of, rather than labeling them impatient whiners.

 

As for the rudeness, that goes both ways.  People post completely reasonable things about their disappointment in aspects of the game, and the white knight community storms in, insults the poster, and tells them to quit the game.  There are definitely jackasses on both sides.  However I'll always feel that at this point in a games life-cycle, meaningful criticism is usually going to be more valuable than nut-hugging.

 

 

I havn't said it yet but there are a few posters who are extremely lucky the forum mods are such nice guys. In a lot of other communities they would have been banned as trolls and troublemakers as they usually don't add anything constructive to the community. They are certainly lucky I ain't a moderator.

And there's a few moderators who are extremely lucky that they're still moderating.  In a lot of other communities they would have had their title and privileges stripped, as they frequently detract from potentially meaningful discussions, or post off-topic standardized responses(like the on in this very thread) rather than actually doing what their position was intended to do.  They're certainly lucky I'm not an admin.

Edited September 3, 2014 by KyleSaysThings

[RAM-bo4250 213]

I have to say that I disagree with the 'beating people over the head' part.  The more pressure, the less opportunity workers have to squander time on things that simply aren't immediately relevant

There were managers that I had while in the military and also in civilian jobs that felt this way. At one of my bases a sign was hung which stated "The beatings will stop when morale improves." I tell you I hated every second of being there. Productivity doesn't come from pressure. It comes from respect and knowing your boss has your back. Let's just agree to disagree.

 

What position at BI do you have to even say the second sentence garbage. What management position there do you have to suggest anyone is squandering time on things that simply aren't immediately relevant? You have no basis to assume such a fact to back up your beating over the head argument. Even if that did work?

 

Hey, I heard they need Beta testers over at that other game.

[LimeMobber 47]

I would be curious to know if charging people to play the alpha actually has improved the release of any game or increased the change that a game is released compared to normal game development trends.

[hells high 676]

A public (purchasable) alpha would maybe resonate better if it's development priorities were a blend of alpha and beta. 

 

The problem there is that you start running into a threshold where its no longer beneficial to polish things out when they need to be rewritten or redone a week later when a new feature breaks it. Games don't go together like a Lego wall, where you just keep piling pieces together; especially when you are rewriting the bones of the engine itself.

 

I would be curious to know if charging people to play the alpha actually has improved the release of any game or increased the change that a game is released compared to normal game development trends.

 

I feel like thats a bit of a backwards way to put it. The whole concept of early access isn't to charge people to play your in development product (even though some studios have taken it to that evil place), it was to secure funding for niche products that publishers wouldn't touch. I'm not sure if you remember (in this industry a day can feel like a year), but publishers used to run the show a few years ago. If they didn't think they could make money off your idea, they wouldn't pay to get your games on shelves. You NEEDED a publisher, until the indie movement, then Kickstarter, then Early Access.

 

Like all things that start out good someone is going to exploit it to squeeze cash out of consumers. I don't think BI is doing that, and I genuinely think that DayZ will directly benefit from the added resources that the Early Access revenue has brought (I don't think they would have acquired things like the wildlife specialist team in Bratislava for instance).

Edited September 3, 2014 by Hells High

[q.S Sachiel 470]

Most don't adopt early access testing models.  Recent PC sales have been excessively mysterious about information release, with Demos a thing of the '90s, industry citing that releasing a demo of your product can actually HINDER sales (because people realize it's not for them/game is bad/or deflation of hype, you decide) and others restricting reviews until day of/after release, or drip-feeding the community trailers to ramp up the communities thirst.  DayZ did a risky move, but it did pay off, so it would seem.

 

many do however adopt pre-release purchase models which on occasion are used as a cash injection to 'get them over the line' as well as swell early profits, or race competitors/substitutes to market.

 

As far as the 'best interests at heart' argument for complaining about development, i'll weigh in and say that plenty of people do this on the street against democracy, and while sometimes they have great ideals, from what I see they're out screaming for their hip pocket, and could care less about the rest once they get what they want.

While complaining does arguably 'keep the team in check' they could easily just buckle to pressure, being jaded by the community and produce your worst fears - fold up, slap some pretty wall paper on it and call it a house.

 

They've said that they are focusing more on the back-end stuff before front end as they're firstly building from scratch, and secondly would like to have core functionality first.  This approach comes at a cost of 'aesthetics' more or less back to the house (even though there's a correct way to build a house mostly because of what Hell's High said above, also because the house will buckle under it's weight if you do it wrong..) they're putting in the foundations and not starting with the brick facade.

 

also, more as a anti-proof to my last post RE information release, i'll stress this time that there is a whole announcement/dev-info outlet at the top of the Forum page proper.

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/209229-status-report-week-of-25-august-14/

get excited.

Edited September 3, 2014 by q.S Sachiel

[Baker. 1484]

The problem there is that you start running into a threshold where its no longer beneficial to polish things out when they need to be rewritten or redone a week later when a new feature breaks it. Games don't go together like a Lego wall, where you just keep piling pieces together; especially when you are rewriting the bones of the engine itself.

Good point. Perhaps early access is simply an unavoidable quagmire 

[hells high 676]

Good point. Perhaps early access is simply an unavoidable quagmire 

 

I wouldn't quite go that far. My point in the comment you quoted was that development of a game isn't straightforward, whether its internal or public as with early access. The unfortunate thing with early access is that people whom aren't familiar with that process get exposed to what are generally the signs of an unfinished piece of software; because that is what an in development build is. Before this you'd buy a game with bugs and demand a refund or for a patch, because you purchased what was marketed as a finish piece of software when it was not. What you are buying with early access is the game when its finished, and as a return you are given access to the development cycle as well.

 

Early access evolved because the big corporations that handle the business side of gaming are run by dinosaurs with charts and graphs. What you buy is another data point, so they know what to fund and what not to fund, what will make the biggest return. This industry is still young, early access may not be perfect but its a result of the history and part of the evolution. I feel like the early access trend is dying personally, people keep getting burned by projects that fail and are becoming smarter consumers, or are turned off by the development process. Who knows what is next.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Hells High

[q.S Sachiel 470]

even writing basic programs can sometimes be an effort in problem-solving.

I'm no paid professional, but writing even relatively simple python programs can be rather roundabout depending on the complexity of your functions and rules.

Edited September 4, 2014 by q.S Sachiel

[terminal_boy 860]

Good point. Perhaps early access is simply an unavoidable quagmire

It's very easy to avoid by not purchasing early access games. At all. Ever.

[kichilron 8550]

And there's a few moderators who are extremely lucky that they're still moderating.  In a lot of other communities they would have had their title and privileges stripped, as they frequently detract from potentially meaningful discussions, or post off-topic standardized responses(like the on in this very thread) rather than actually doing what their position was intended to do.  They're certainly lucky I'm not an admin.

 

 

Why, thank you. I love you, too.

 

The reason these comments towards us as staff in this Forum usually arise is coming from the fact, that the people expect us to be paid for what we're doing here, because we're around so often. This might come as a shock to you - but we're not. We're not getting anything for this and merely doing it because we once were just like everyone else and stood out due to our involvement on a voluntary basis as well as the thought we were putting in our post.

Might also be the reason why not many are Forum Staff these days, as thoughtful posts are getting rarer and rarer.

 

Back to the topic, however - and this might be where I was misunderstood with me copying what Brian posted on the Steam Forum and stickied it (though I actually had a reason for it):

 

We are currently not in a state of the game where you can expect everything to be perfect. Everything's being mashed into the game and bugs are being fixed as everyone's going along. Some of the biggest bugs are atleast attempted to be fixed, though this is not the main concern of this stage.

 

As soon as the Beta hits and we're going in the next stage, we will see a lot of improvements and I personally do not understand anyone that says there are some white knights about yelling "Alpha" at everyone. They might be and they might be rude in their doing (which is punishable through us as well, if they're being too rude about it - just remember to report it to us) - but they're still right and this is where we cycle back to what I posted earlier:

 

• We are still in Alpha and anyone pointing this out again to others is correct
• Those "others" tend to forget that we are in Alpha and what it is for
• We do not expect huge fixes in this current stage nor is anyone focusing on it (as advertised, though)
• I personally wouldn't do it any different, as there's literally 0 point in fixing bugs that I know will be broken with the next patch anyway when I introduce a different feature
• Anyone that knows more than their average "I Have Been On The DayZ Forum And A Lot Of People Say The Devs Are Shit"-attitude knows the above is true, as:
• You can't start fixing an environment that is currently being developed and stripped and changed

 

Now, if you have a problem with me as a Moderator, then contact boneboys about it, as he's the bane of us Moderators and strictly punishing us for misbehaviour.

If you have a personal problem with me, however, contact me personally in a PM. Though I sound grumpy, I usually am not - I am just German.

 

 

Related to this you might want to take a look at this, as it explains a little more.

Edited September 4, 2014 by kichilron
Aunt Edit.

[benedictus 160]

  Sometimes I feel like folks from this community take any criticism towards this game as a personal insult.

 

I think most of them are just bored to hear the same arguments and the same topics popping out over and over again.

 

 

But this one, reinventing business models... thats exactly whats the game needs, new real life business models.

[Cpanther 221]

This Alpha is already different than most Alphas i been on... for starters... it have an "Stable" version, which normally is none-existent in most Alphas.. and... my computer haven't overheated to critical levels yet.. which is nice....

[terminal_boy 860]

No matter what differences of outlook and opinion I might have with the Moderators here, I think they do a pretty good of stopping this place descending into chaos or going on ego/power trips.

[Demoth 366]

This is a scenario I expect to see people on these boards run into in real.

"So I went to the store, and they were selling a hotplate. The display model said, 'if you touch me, I will burn you'. Well, this is American and I do what I want. I touched it and the PIECE OF SHIT BURNED ME! I then complained to management for hours".

[scriptfactory 620]

This is a scenario I expect to see people on these boards run into in real.

"So I went to the store, and they were selling a hotplate. The display model said, 'if you touch me, I will burn you'. Well, this is American and I do what I want. I touched it and the PIECE OF SHIT BURNED ME! I then complained to management for hours".

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

[Demoth 366]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

No, what I did was make a joke to highlight that people ignore clear posted warnings, then whine when the warnings turn out to be true.

And it was a joke... but it must have hit a nerve. Is your hand currently wrapped in bandages at the Sear customer service booth?

[scriptfactory 620]

No, what I did was make a joke to highlight that people ignore clear posted warnings, then whine when the warnings turn out to be true.

And it was a joke... but it must have hit a nerve. Is your hand currently wrapped in bandages at the Sear customer service booth?

 

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem