Filling magazines with rounds should take time (animations)

[0.64 Freerider 261]

Dear developer team,

 

in a real combat scenario, when you emptied your 3 magazines you are pretty much fucked without a sidearm.

 

In Dayz people only have to drag rounds onto their mags and their good to go! (Making those sidearms pretty much useless)

 

In my opinion a realism oriented game like DayZ should include animations for filling your mags because it reqiures you just as in the real world,

to be well prepared and sparing with the rounds you fire.

 

This 75 drum mag will take about a minute of filling time in real life so all this safety of having plenty of rounds, comes at a price.

 

Oh and would it kill the fun?

 

I actually don't think so. People wait already, till their meat is cooked, till they are finished drinking and many other things.

 

For me it would only bring the game another bit closer to a realistic survival experience and ask even more survival thinking and prepararion from

the players.

 

 

Thank you for reading!!

 

Greetings

freerider3434

 

Watch this video and you'll know why we need magazine-filling time for realistic combat:

 

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Edited November 16, 2014 by freerider3434

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I can see this being fair. That way we can still have high-capacity LMGs and GPMGs like the M249, PKM, or RPK, but the cost is that you have to spend a good amount of time setting them up. Actually, the M249 & PKM, among others, would take even longer, because you have to link all of the ammo into the belt in addition to loading it into the magazine (unless you use STANAGs in the M249.)

 

It'd be a fair way to balance out machine-guns so that they could be implemented while still being effective (among weight, stamina, and other functions). This could also be applied to hand-loaded guns, so that you actually have to hand load every round into your Mosin/SKS/whatever unless you have a clip with rounds pre-loaded, so that magazine-fed guns still have a purpose.

Edited September 1, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[rybec 339]

hand load every round into your Mosin/SKS/whatever

I like the idea of loading magazines taking time, but stripper clips should be a bit more common if we're going to have to load them per round into an SKS or Mosin. Or if you have the LRS mounted you shouldn't be able to load a stripper clip because the scope is literally blocking it.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I like the idea of loading magazines taking time, but stripper clips should be a bit more common if we're going to have to load them per round into an SKS or Mosin. Or if you have the LRS mounted you shouldn't be able to load a stripper clip because the scope is literally blocking it.

The stripper clips shouldn't work on the Mosin with the LRS anyway.

 

I'm not sure how common stripper clips need to be. They should definitely be available but I think having to choose between loading more often and more slowly versus reloading quicker and having generally larger capacities but needing to search a lot harder is a good balance. Hand-loading shouldn't be atrociously slow (Looking at you, Enfield L42 from Insurgency: Source), but it should be noticeably slower than magazine reloading.

[dashender7 78]

Absolutely - this is a must! And I agree there needs to be an animation that accompanies.  Holding mag in one hand and hand motion to add each round into the magazine.  

 

Would also like to see them add more stripper clips / loading tools with a different animation.

[General Zod 1118]

Yes, good idea. 

IB4 some one comes and says Imma outdoor man I can reload mags faster, make others learn how to do that. 

Edited September 2, 2014 by General Zod

[AP_Norris 1018]

The stripper clips shouldn't work on the Mosin with the LRS anyway.

 

I'm not sure how common stripper clips need to be. They should definitely be available but I think having to choose between loading more often and more slowly versus reloading quicker and having generally larger capacities but needing to search a lot harder is a good balance. Hand-loading shouldn't be atrociously slow (Looking at you, Enfield L42 from Insurgency: Source), but it should be noticeably slower than magazine reloading.

The LRS shouldn't go on the Mosin, and it wouldn't work with PU.

I think the current hand load speed, maybe slightly slower is good.

[bauertschi 254]

I think this ties in with this suggestion: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/208453-dynamic-reloading-of-rifles-shotgun-pistols-etc/

 

Maybe not a complete fit, but I think it goes hand in hand. I am for animations and slower reloading with single bullets, but animations must be easily interruptable, you should be able to move while reloading for example, ... . No idea, where we will really go and how far. From a priority point I would prefer we get reloading itself done before time for reloading mags to be honest.

 

Absolutely - this is a must! And I agree there needs to be an animation that accompanies.  Holding mag in one hand and hand motion to add each round into the magazine.  

 

Would also like to see them add more stripper clips / loading tools with a different animation.

 

The argument here is "takes time in real life, let's do it here". After emptying a mag irl you could chamber a bullet, remove the mag, fill it (not neccessarily completely if you think you might need it any moment), put the mag back in. All the while you would have one bullet to shoot that puts someone down, when you hit him/her. And not just talking headshots here. In DayZ you can chamber a bullet, load the mag, someone comes around, you shoot him/her, he continues running and puts you down. Very different thing, very unrealistic, but I can only guess that no one here wants ppl to drop from a single .22 shot to the stomach. And let's not forget the rifle would be easily accessable next to you. So from a gameplay perspective I say bad idea. In the game you put it on your back and do the animation. When someone comes around the corner, you have to stop the animation, get the rifle from the inventory ... you are long dead at this point, even ignoring the fact that one bullet would most probably have not been enough to put your enemy down anyways.

 

Brainstorming ... what would I like ... hm, maybe: Do the reload of mags like it is now, but with a timer. As long as you don't move (besides turning with the mouse) add a bullet a second or something. Add a very silent click every time a bullet is added that can only be heard for maybe 2 meters so you would know when the mag is full or you need to continue with the next stack. If you start moving or shooting or something, the reloading stops BUT the amount of bullets you put in stays, no total reset as with cancelling eating. That would result in still being able to react quickly with the rifle and put in some "authenticity".

 

The drum mags shown above are obviously a bigger deal to refill, but normal mags are not that big of a deal. Maybe a real animation would be ok for drums to nerf them, but animations are a big problem, too. There you are sitting at a well drinking and a madman with running to you with an axe, yeah, lets finish the drink. Same with eating. Yes the cancel action should work more fluently, but even if it does, they introduce all kinds of problems. There should be no problem keeping a gun or melee weapon ready when we drink or eat. But no, we got the animations for "realism" and totally "realistically" put our rifle on the back in high danger zones... . Introducing more of the wonderful realistic animations and forcing them on players in firefight situations will not introduce more realism, it will introduce more awkwardness (clunkyness) with a lot of unrealistic dying involved - imo.

 

The main problem with all the animations is that the rifle (or whatever) is completely unequipped, the time it takes to get it back out is simply not realistic at all. We might have rifles on our backs in situations where we feel save, like when sitting around in the woods. But the game does not know that. If you were Chernarus, would you put the rifle on your back to drink in Berezino?

 

Concerning the original post, waiting is not the problem for me. I just think that introducing animations that will put the gun away (unlike reloading) in firefights will mess up the game pretty much. The drinking example from above is bad enough, even if it is not during a firefight.

 

EDIT: As this is relevant here, what would you think about the suggestion to keep weapons equipped while eating, drinking(, mabe loading mags)? That might solve the issue somewhat. Also cancelling actions should simply drop whatever item we were using to allow for faster reaction. It would be anoying when dropping food because we cancelled to not overeat or something, but in a fight situation, the animation would be reduced to get the rifle up - plus some lag that might even be considered realistic.

Edited September 2, 2014 by bautschi

[DURRHUNTER 597]

Very different thing, very unrealistic, but I can only guess that no one here wants ppl to drop from a single .22 shot to the stomach. And let's not forget the rifle would be easily accessable next to you. 

Your stomach would be tore up. .22 LRs are a absolute bugger to chamber. Ive got a .22 single shot that a bolt action and it takes like eh, 7 seconds to reload.

[General Zod 1118]

Loading 60 stanags or the 75 drum mag will be so much pain in the ass. 

[Trizzo 632]

There was much good discussion on reddit, http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/2eqv31/dayz_the_idea_of_charging_magazines/

There was multiple suggestions, from myself included, concerning the timing of which. It is a good idea because as it currently stands replenishing a magazine effects very little.

.5 seconds per round into stripper, mag, speed loader, manual

.15 seconds load a 30 round mag isn't unreasonable

.sub 35 seconds for 75 drum seems fair

.mouse wheel cancels current action feeding and you can reload

This would achieve balance to the silly run around loading minor annoyance.

Loading 60 stanags or the 75 drum mag will be so much pain in the ass.

As it should be. Between that the, the gun itself and the 7ps it's a fair trade. Edited September 2, 2014 by Trizzo

[General Zod 1118]

As it should be. Between that the, the gun itself and the 7ps it's a fair trade.

That's what I mean.

[Trizzo 632]

That's what I mean.

Good...good

[bauertschi 254]

Your stomach would be tore up. .22 LRs are a absolute bugger to chamber. Ive got a .22 single shot that a bolt action and it takes like eh, 7 seconds to reload.

 

Yep on both :). I think the chambering (also feeding from mags does not work as well as with other ammo in my experience, but that may vary per rifle) is so problematic because of the projectile's shape. It's head gets wide very quickly and the lead is soft. When other calibres are not alligned exactly, the bullet will slide in, the .22s will block - even when the projectile should not simply be lead. They need to be alligned more accurately.

 

Currently I need to go into the inventory, go to the ammo, drag it to the gun, leave the inventory when I want to chamber. That also takes seconds to accomplish, with the disadvantage that I'm also stuck in the inventory when someone comes around the corner. In the thread I linked, I suggested reloading with R for convenience - after all, why do it for mags but nor for chambering? But long reload times. A dude with a tore up stomach would go down, in DayZ he keeps running and kills you. That is why I think it is not good to block character movement and put the rifle on our backs, just because we are refilling a mag. The chambering animation without putting the rifle away can take several seconds, all for it. Forcing us to put rifles on our back just makes everything more clunky again.

 

Btw no one mentioned, that we should have a chambered rifle, when we remove a not empty mag. The rilfe remains chambered and the mag looses one bullet. That should definitely be put in. You could reload a mag and still have a bullet in without having to do so manually - all in the argument of realism ;).

Edited September 2, 2014 by bautschi

[dashender7 78]

 

 

The main problem with all the animations is that the rifle (or whatever) is completely unequipped, the time it takes to get it back out is simply not realistic at all. We might have rifles on our backs in situations where we feel save, like when sitting around in the woods. But the game does not know that. If you were Chernarus, would you put the rifle on your back to drink in Berezino?

 

Concerning the original post, waiting is not the problem for me. I just think that introducing animations that will put the gun away (unlike reloading) in firefights will mess up the game pretty much. The drinking example from above is bad enough, even if it is not during a firefight.

 

EDIT: As this is relevant here, what would you think about the suggestion to keep weapons equipped while eating, drinking(, mabe loading mags)? That might solve the issue somewhat. Also cancelling actions should simply drop whatever item we were using to allow for faster reaction. It would be anoying when dropping food because we cancelled to not overeat or something, but in a fight situation, the animation would be reduced to get the rifle up - plus some lag that might even be considered realistic.

 

Great points throughout your post.  I agree that animations and consequences of cancel action need to be better thought out.  Also a fantastic point that taking a drink or even filling a canteen should not require shouldering your weapon.  IRL, you could and should do some these actions with one hand still on your weapon, and canceling the drinking action should be a nearly instantaneous reflex.  Some things, however, like eating canned food could be argued would require both hands.

 

Love the idea that canceling something mid-action results in dropping whatever item you were using. IRL, if you got attacked while eating your sardines and had to go for your gun with a jolt of adrenaline and fear, that can of sardines would be on the ground and forgotten for the moment in no time, not safely back in your pack.  But you're right that this would not be realistic for simply stopping mid-action for another reason like avoiding getting too stuffed, etc.

 

It will always be imperfect either way, but here's to hoping the devs will continue to put more thought into these small details which actually have a big effect on gameplay.

[bauertschi 254]

...Some things, however, like eating canned food could be argued would require both hands.

 

Love the idea that canceling something mid-action results in dropping whatever item you were using. IRL, if you got attacked while eating your sardines and had to go for your gun with a jolt of adrenaline and fear, that can of sardines would be on the ground and forgotten for the moment in no time, not safely back in your pack.  But you're right that this would not be realistic for simply stopping mid-action for another reason like avoiding getting too stuffed, etc.

 

It will always be imperfect either way, but here's to hoping the devs will continue to put more thought into these small details which actually have a big effect on gameplay.

 

Concerning eating with both hands, the character could crouch when a gun is equipped and place it on the floor for fast access. Then cancel action would allow to get the gun back faster. There is no need to put it on the back where it takes forever to access it.

 

If I have to choose between two imperfect solutions, I choose the one that does not kill me...drop that can of beans ;) Such things and how they are now are a main part of why players complain about clunkiness.

 

Edit: One could also let the player choose: Put the rifle on the back when standing, placing it in the floor for ready access when crouching or proning. That way smart player controls have an impact, no reason to make it excessively easy for the users. Who makes mistakes can die.  ... Actually equipping it fast when proning, even when it is on the floor next to you is hard, reduce weapon ready for fast access to crouching, make it slower when proning, but still faster than with the thing on your back. Also another thing of risk vs reward when you are easier to spot or hit, but can equip the weapon faster and start running faster.

Edited September 2, 2014 by bautschi

[BugZ (DayZ) 49]

This is too much just for a game. Instead of that they should add new features in game that can make game more playable. I dont mean cars,planes ect. I mean cmopletely new and diffrent thing effecting on gameplay. Current system really BORİNG survive survive survive.. as longest as you can survive What you earn ? Nothing.. İf you survived for 1 month or only for 1 week what will be diffrence? Of course NOTHING!

[byrgesen 1341]

This is too much just for a game. Instead of that they should add new features in game that can make game more playable. I dont mean cars,planes ect. I mean cmopletely new and diffrent thing effecting on gameplay. Current system really BORİNG survive survive survive.. as longest as you can survive What you earn ? Nothing.. İf you survived for 1 month or only for 1 week what will be diffrence? Of course NOTHING!

 

Tbh mate, it sounds like you are looking for a much more casual RPG centered game.

If you really feel like this, DayZ is most likely not something for you :) Not trying to be a dick, just stating things as i see them.

 

@Topic

I completely agree with pretty much everything in this thread.

We need a timer and an animation for loading mags/clips and the more bullets you have to load, the longer it should take.

Ive read pretty much all of the thread, but did anyone mention not being able to run and load a mag? I guess its a no brainer tbh, as its close to impossible to run and load a mag anyway, but i said it now hehe.

 

I can imagine this being something they do when we get closer to Beta imho, perhaps not even until we are in Beta.

[rybec 339]

The LRS shouldn't go on the Mosin, and it wouldn't work with PU.

I think the current hand load speed, maybe slightly slower is good.

I have no bent bolt mosin nor a PU scope, but I believe it's made to allow a stripper clip to fit.

The stripper clip is 2 and a half inches long but I do not know how high the clearance on a PU would allow

[dashender7 78]

Concerning eating with both hands, the character could crouch when a gun is equipped and place it on the floor for fast access. Then cancel action would allow to get the gun back faster. There is no need to put it on the back where it takes forever to access it.

 

If I have to choose between two imperfect solutions, I choose the one that does not kill me...drop that can of beans ;) Such things and how they are now are a main part of why players complain about clunkiness.

 

Edit: One could also let the player choose: Put the rifle on the back when standing, placing it in the floor for ready access when crouching or proning. That way smart player controls have an impact, no reason to make it excessively easy for the users. Who makes mistakes can die.  ... Actually equipping it fast when proning, even when it is on the floor next to you is hard, reduce weapon ready for fast access to crouching, make it slower when proning, but still faster than with the thing on your back. Also another thing of risk vs reward when you are easier to spot or hit, but can equip the weapon faster and start running faster.

 

All I can say is how do we get you on the dev team?  

 

Again, great idea that there could be more than one option for how to approach a given action - options that weight favor towards ability to react differently to a given possible scenario.  At a basic level, eating with two hands could be easier and quicker and the cancel action takes a second or two longer as the weapon is shouldered, but eating with one hand, while very slow, allows the player to keep their weapon equipped and reflexively and instantly drop the food item to raise the weapon.

[bauertschi 254]

All I can say is how do we get you on the dev team?  

 

Again, great idea that there could be more than one option for how to approach a given action - options that weight favor towards ability to react differently to a given possible scenario.  At a basic level, eating with two hands could be easier and quicker and the cancel action takes a second or two longer as the weapon is shouldered, but eating with one hand, while very slow, allows the player to keep their weapon equipped and reflexively and instantly drop the food item to raise the weapon.

 

Lol, a lot of ppl highly disagree with my opinions, I can assure you of that. And now you threw an idea in that I like. Everyone wants a different end product. I HATE everything that restricts me more in the game than I would be irl, in this discussion that would mean putting my rifle on my back instead of having it somewhat ready when doing a mag fill animation. There are others that see it differently and they also have arguments. Don't inflate my ego too much, I'll be unbearable.

[dashender7 78]

Lol, a lot of ppl highly disagree with my opinions, I can assure you of that. And now you threw an idea in that I like. Everyone wants a different end product. I HATE everything that restricts me more in the game than I would be irl, in this discussion that would mean putting my rifle on my back instead of having it somewhat ready when doing a mag fill animation. There are others that see it differently and they also have arguments. Don't inflate my ego too much, I'll be unbearable.

 

What we need are rifle slings.  I'm sure this has been suggested somewhere.  A rifle sling allows you to keep your weapon very near ready position across the front of your body.  Obviously the game is imitating having a sling when you put it on your back, but this could be further developed.  IRL there are tactical bungee slings that can keep the weapon tightly secured across your chest with minimal movement but allow it to be pulled into aiming position immediately as well.

[AP_Norris 1018]

I have no bent bolt mosin nor a PU scope, but I believe it's made to allow a stripper clip to fit.

The stripper clip is 2 and a half inches long but I do not know how high the clearance on a PU would allow

Pretty sure it doesn't.

Source, Red Orchestra 2.

Not the best source but it is a pretty accurate game.

[General Zod 1118]

What we need are rifle slings.  I'm sure this has been suggested somewhere.  A rifle sling allows you to keep your weapon very near ready position across the front of your body.  Obviously the game is imitating having a sling when you put it on your back, but this could be further developed.  IRL there are tactical bungee slings that can keep the weapon tightly secured across your chest with minimal movement but allow it to be pulled into aiming position immediately as well.

And an improvised one can be made with duct tape or rope. 

[dashender7 78]

Pretty sure it doesn't.

Source, Red Orchestra 2.

Not the best source but it is a pretty accurate game.

 

I own a Finnish M39 Mosin, but not a bent bolt one.  I think the bent bolts on Mosins were made simply for the ability to operate the bolt itself with a scope attached, not for the ability to use a stripper clip.