Base building and secureing your stuff

[Yokai (DayZ) 12]

So I've been talking to my team mates and others interested in DayZ and more specificly base building when that shows up. One interesting point of debate that keeps coming up is, how secure is your stuff going to be when there done?

 

With what mechanics we have in game at this time I have broke this down into several foreseeable options. so now a little explaination on what i meant in the poll options.

 

-Simple damage based system- This would entail being able to force your way into peoples bases/barricades using small/low calliber fire arms and melee weapons. (i.e braking a padlock off a door with an axe or handgun)

 

-Mid-tier damage based system- This would entail being able to force your way into peoples bases/barricades using large/high calliber fire arms and low tier explosives. (i.e shooting off padlocks/combo locks with a rifle, shotgun, or other suitable weapon.)

 

-Advanced damage based system- This would involve using VERY rare or hard to craft items to force your waying into peoples things. (i.e. have to craft something like shape or satchel charges in order to get in a door or through a wall.)

 

-Simple item based system- This would involve finding a rare item(s) that either allows or has a chance to allow you to bypass locks and barricades (i.e. lockpick kits for doors or gates, possible an E-tool for walls or barricades)

 

-Advanced item based system - This would require player(s) to located multiple items that would allow or have a chance to allow you to bypass locks and barricades (i.e you would have to find say a sledge, construct a tool box (as detailed before by dean), e-tool, and any given other items to get passed locks and barricades.)

 

-No system- this would mean that once you set up a location that your base/barricades are more or less impregnable, not much explaination need here.

 

-other- post your ideas or alterations on methods I've mentioned before.

 

Now before i go any further i would like to state that I am 100% against options 1 and 6 but i wanted to make this poll as unbiased as possible as I'm genuinely curious on our forum goers opinions and in no way am i trying to prove any point or push any agenda

 

Personally i would like to see an item based system rather then a damage based system  myself, as I feel the B&E system from the AFTERMATH mod for the DayZ mod did this very well. (unfortenately it was abandoned before it made it passed beta). For those that dont know basicly the AFTERMATH system went like this, to break into a gate or locked door required a sledge and toolbox to start. It then took 5 repetitions to complete on each rep you had a chance to break a tool which would stop the process, if you completed all 5 reps you had something like a 3-5% chance to succeed. if you failed to get it open on the 5th rep you had a HIGH chance to break one or both tools. Walls operated basicly the oppisite of how the doors worked, level 1 walls would take 60 reps upto level 5 walls which took 720 reps. but you instead had a ~95% chance of success each rep with a 5% failure rating and the possiblity to break a tool. This also took a relatively large amount of time to do each rep (1 level 5 wall took something like over an hour to complete, while level 1's took so where around 5-15 min to complete) and again if you failed at any point you would have to start over.

 

I beleive that this introduced just enough rng to make it interesting with out making it frustrating, not to say there was no frustation involed. (several times we would get to say rep ~700 and have a tool break thus having to start again with a new set of tools, and making me want to punch a baby. but in a good way). This meant that tools had to be farmed, sometimes literally by the truck load, to ATTEMPT to get into somebodies belongings, and as a side effect created an economy for these tools themselfs.

 

This system, on our server at least, created sort of a tiered system of clan and player interaction. As larger clans like mine and other usally only spent tools to break into places that we KNEW had items/viechles/etc we wanted. Meaning that for a large clan it was unnessary and inefficent to attempt to break into solo or small group bases. while smaller groups and solo players could attempt to break into larger bases but 99% of the time where unable to farm or accuire the required materials and tools to get into such bases. This created a very interesting dynamic between risk/reward and insured that large clan X stock piling veichles/weapons/ammunition became a very large target, while also allowing defences to grow proportionately to the reward if broken into. This also meant that if a solo player came across a large base and the stars alligned and RNjesus was on your side you could use relitively few tools to get in get what you could carry and get out. (its also important to point our that locks and gates RELOCKED on server restart but walls remained destoryed, so its not like somebody could just pop a lock and your base is fucked from now on)

 

ideas, comments, questions, rants?

 

TL;DR - IM IN YUR BASES KILLIN YUR DOODS (and takin yur things)

 

edit 1 - i would also like to point out that all these take into consideration that duping and MOST hacking/scripting/etc has been taking care off as most these would prove to be pointless with out these facts taking care off.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Yokai

[shadowjack 254]

Voted Simple damage based system. i don't even like the concept of being able to loot ones own body. 

 

Death should be equal to wipe.

[frozenjaws 69]

I've voted for a mid-tier damage system, because i think its important not to allow super fortresses, now im not saying that spending days on a base would be all for show but that the challenge in raiding would be to find these bases. Ideally i'd probably go for a mix of advanced-mid tier damage system as you describe them at least, having to do some tricky crafting or using hard to get items to even attempt breaking into a larger base, but needing simpler things for just barricades or similar. Building massive bases, although cool should be a huge risk as you put a massive target on youself. Where smaller bases would be quite unsecure. 

[Bororm 1156]

I didn't vote because I'd want it to be a bit of everything.

 

I think there should be variable levels of defense, and the same for offense.  Like a shitty wooden door with a simple lock can be broken into easily, but you can also get metal/reinforced whatever doors and more complicated locks etc that take something more.

 

The main deal is that the time invested in offense should, imo, be somewhat higher than what the target invested in defense.

 

An example being, you might invest a bunch of effort into finding/creating some explosive breaching charge to use against a reinforced door, but you have no guarantee there will even be anything worthwhile inside.  It should be a gamble for the attackers, with the potential of an equivalent or greater payoff, where as the defenders should have a more reliable and accessible ability to defend.  If that makes any sense.  The result being that as an attacker you should be encouraged to pick and choose your targets to a degree (due to difficulty in acquiring the tools needed), but that no one is ever actually safe, and if people wanna be buttholes and just break into every base on the map they can, provided they invest the effort.

 

Base building should leave room for a lot of time investment as to how secure you want it to be, but never completely safe.

 

It's something that's incredibly difficult to balance and I don't expect it will ever be right.  Duping and exploits will also always be a major factor, even if a c4 charge (just an example) is a rare thing, it'll just take some dupers to make a ton and ruin everyone's day.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Bororm

[roger___rutten@live.nl 4]

i voted for the mid tier damage and advanced item option. your concept is cool, but would be sad to see only one option to get inside someones base. like Bororm sais is how i feel aswel. different doors recuire different methods. 

[Katana67 2907]

The system should be a cross-section of rarity, effectiveness, and resources devoted.

 

So you'd need some relatively easy-to-find wooden planks and a hammer/box of nails to board up your door, but it can be broken down with a fireaxe.

 

Or, you'd have reinforced wooden doors which require a mid-range (in terms of rarity) breaching round to be fired out of a shotgun.

 

But you'd have to search far and wide for a reinforced steel lock/door, find a padlock, but it takes a relatively rare "welding kit" or somesuch to break down.

 

Doesn't have to be an either-or type of scenario, the barricading system can be tiered to incorporate a variety of protection levels.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Katana67

[Helix2000 128]

i can not say that i am a keen advocate of base building. my idea is boarding up the windows of a house, and barricading the door, but really, i know that it is never going to stop there, so really, base building, go for it, without those virtually indestructible monolith bases that would spring up in the mod...

[Yokai (DayZ) 12]

little bit drunk so ill try to keep this as coherent as possible, if not ill edit tommorow :D

 

 

Voted Simple damage based system. i don't even like the concept of being able to loot ones own body. 

 

Death should be equal to wipe.

 

this is understandable and it is really goin to depend on what the dev team views as "death vs. rearmarment" and will be something i bring up in our next discussion.

 

edit 1- i think its important to point out that i believe our storage options will be EXTREMELY limited, i dont want a pile of assult rifles that i come back to. it shouldnt be "oh i died, wtf ever ima run back and get another gun/supplies/etc." even what i what consider "massive" bases shouldnt necessarily be about storage but something you could kinda call home, someplace you can store some items and a veichle or two

 

 

...

 

I think there should be variable levels of defense, and the same for offense.  Like a shitty wooden door with a simple lock can be broken into easily, but you can also get metal/reinforced whatever doors and more complicated locks etc that take something more.

 

...

 

Base building should leave room for a lot of time investment as to how secure you want it to be, but never completely safe.

 

This bring up alot of points that i hadnt considered, after some inebriated contemplation this i believe is something that i can really get behind. rather then a single choice have a tiered system involving options 1-5 depending on the "level" (i really hate assigning such gamey mechanics as levels of deffences but for lack of a better term) of the defences really makes sense. simple doors can be axed through while larger more dedicated defence may require more "dedicated" time to break into. This is something that, as i said, im really starting to like and ill bring up during our next discussion.

 

I also agree 100% that no matter the time or investment NOTHING should be 100% safe no matter the precations taking, i think that this will come down to a balance between time, energy, and risk involed in constuction to time, energy and risk involed in the break in. i think this is where the base building will be forged or broken, that no matter the system they choose that if a balance isnt found it'll be broken.

 

edit 1- i also belive that with nothing being 100% secure, it should take such a time investment as to avoid trolling and griefing. for example if constucting barricades and locks is to easy somebodies goin to inevitably go to NW and board up the barracks. "HUR HUR BOARDED UP THE BARRACKS NOBODY BUT ME CAN GET IN #REKT NUBS" <- is what i want to avoid at all costs.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Yokai

[over9000nukez 199]

Other:

 

Depending on the time you spent on the base, it should take longer to break in, would suck if someone with a sporter mag unloaded a box (easy to find) and broke into my group's base that we spent about 20 hours on, more hours should mean more fortification, and less and less of a chance of someone breaking all the way inside, (maybe they make progress, and it will take an entire dayz sitting to break into a heavily fortified base.)

Edited August 30, 2014 by over9000nukez

[Capo 323]

I'm honestly not worried about what system they put in, provided there is no way your base can be completely secure. 

[Rammur 59]

Tbh none unless its on a seperate mod server like epoch i prefer my vanilla style dayz without all the man made structure littering the map.I like tents and stuff that can be hidden and formed into a little improvised fort though.

[Rags! 1966]

Realism says that even a small caliber weapon should allow you to gun yourself through doors. 

 

It also says that high caliber rounds and certain melee weapons should allow you to do the same thing.

 

Of course, the game designer in me wants to ask..."If all these easy to find items can break into people's forts and barricades...there's no reason to have one to store your stuff. You'd be much better with the Valley of the Kings strategy and just find a certain tree in the middle of the forest and dump your shit there because nobody will ever randomly stumble upon it in a bajillion years.

[harteman 155]

Impregnable "bases", but have the ability to barricade all other doors in the game and have those barricades be damage based, so an axe or similar could break through, but perhaps could be used to stay safe from zombies, or even be necessary if roving bands of zombies ever become a thing.

 

Edit- You can always camp someones base, so even if impregnable, it doesn't confer immunity to you, as you have to enter and exit at some point.

Edited August 30, 2014 by harteman

[Bororm 1156]

Realism says that even a small caliber weapon should allow you to gun yourself through doors. 

 

It also says that high caliber rounds and certain melee weapons should allow you to do the same thing.

 

Of course, the game designer in me wants to ask..."If all these easy to find items can break into people's forts and barricades...there's no reason to have one to store your stuff. You'd be much better with the Valley of the Kings strategy and just find a certain tree in the middle of the forest and dump your shit there because nobody will ever randomly stumble upon it in a bajillion years.

 

I think base building is an area where gameplay>realism.  By it's nature, this is going to be the case.  After all, it's not like you can climb through most windows of the existing houses etc, or just chop down a wall which you'd be able to do irl.

 

Not to say realism is out the window, but it's just one of those things where a lot of concessions are going to have to be made.

[Etherimp 1323]

I didn't vote because I'd want it to be a bit of everything.

 

I think there should be variable levels of defense, and the same for offense.  Like a shitty wooden door with a simple lock can be broken into easily, but you can also get metal/reinforced whatever doors and more complicated locks etc that take something more.

 

The main deal is that the time invested in offense should, imo, be somewhat higher than what the target invested in defense.

 

An example being, you might invest a bunch of effort into finding/creating some explosive breaching charge to use against a reinforced door, but you have no guarantee there will even be anything worthwhile inside.  It should be a gamble for the attackers, with the potential of an equivalent or greater payoff, where as the defenders should have a more reliable and accessible ability to defend.  If that makes any sense.  The result being that as an attacker you should be encouraged to pick and choose your targets to a degree (due to difficulty in acquiring the tools needed), but that no one is ever actually safe, and if people wanna be buttholes and just break into every base on the map they can, provided they invest the effort.

 

Base building should leave room for a lot of time investment as to how secure you want it to be, but never completely safe.

 

It's something that's incredibly difficult to balance and I don't expect it will ever be right.  Duping and exploits will also always be a major factor, even if a c4 charge (just an example) is a rare thing, it'll just take some dupers to make a ton and ruin everyone's day.

 

 

Basically this..

 

if defense is too easy and attack is too hard, then it's imbalanced... if it takes 10 hours to create a functioning base that can be destroyed in 5 minutes, then it's not worth it to build a base.

 

The time invested in creating a base should be equal or slightly less than the time required to procure the goods to break in and execute the break in.

 

If it takes you 10 hours to create a base, it should take someone 12 or so hours to get everything together, find your base, and break in.. (just as an example.. Don't take that as proposing exact numbers.)

[ld-airgrafix 403]

Bit of everything but not to the extent of 7d2d for example

[stinkenheim 249]

I'd be happy with a mix. If someone's just boarded up a door with planks of wood then an axe or crowbar should be sufficient. If they've looted around and crafted additional things then that should be reflected by it being more difficult to force entry to.

I'd actually like there to be boobytraps too so instead if your base being completely in defended while you are away. That way there is always an element of risk involved in raiding a base

[Bororm 1156]

Another approach is what epoch toyed with (disclaimer: I have not played epoch in over a year, so this info is likely dated).

 

Basically when I played it was pretty easy to break into any base, it was mainly a factor of time spent chopping.  The difficulty was in loot being in safes/lock boxes.

 

So basically that approach is that it's easy to get into the base, but the loot itself is hard to get into.  I actually sorta like it, and think it could work well.  Epoch made the mistake of safes being basically impenetrable short of extreme luck, they had a 4 digit combo, at the time I played there was no way to break into them besides guessing.  Doable, but extremely time consuming, especially with a delay between attempts.  However, any loot not in a safe was easy pickings, and vehicles that were stored inside bases were also freely destroyable (epoch used keys, though they did implement hotwire kits).

 

One issue I do have with that approach however, is that I'd like to see DayZ include decorative items, and for bases to be quite customizable.  Like hunting trophies, or even furniture, and paintings and stuff.  Like what if you could skin a bear and make a rug, or mount a boar head as a trophy.  Take those paintings you see around the map for your own home etc.  In the case of bases being "easy" to break into, with the loot being hard to access then this approach would just lead to breaking in and griefing people's stuff fairly easily.  None of those features are confirmed or even mentioned of course, but I do hope bases are more than just a place to stash loot.  Ultima Online is my favorite game though, so maybe I'm biased =P  Even the most hardcore pks would probably tell you they liked decorating their houses!

[Karmaterror 982]

Base building by barricading should be as realistic as poss IMO. It should be easy as hell to get into player structures. Theres nothing you can do to a building (authenticly) that will keep people out. Pick axe + sledge hammer will get you into any building in 5-10 mins. That 5-10 should be the only advantage over a tent, that can be looted instantly with no effort. Basically wether you go the camp route, or the fortifying route it should still all be losable in a very short time. Fortifying would trade off concealment for that 5-10 mins security, where tents would do the oppsite. No security but well concealed.

 

The simple fact is a 3 deep brick wall would take a grown man with a sledge next to no time to get through. Say you made it 10 deep.....he would just go through the wooden house wall next to it...proper "u mad bro?" moment. But would be authentic, as long as player built structures/ fortifications are reasonably easy to loot (provided you have the right tool/s, I think they will work well :)

[Katana67 2907]

Eh, I think that there needs to be some method of deterring entry that actually requires dedicated time/risk/effort to circumvent.

 

If every yahoo with a fireaxe or firearm can get into my base, I won't make a base (unless, of course, stealth/hiding is actually viable) because there'd be no point to doing so.

 

Which is why I think we need two types of items (well three, but I'll skip the "Temporary Barricading" category)...

 

1. Concealment, Cover, and Impediment Items

- These items can be overcome by everybody, and are not primarily designed to keep people out of your base. They're designed to give you defensible positions, to conceal your movements whilst in the base, and to slow the advance of attackers.

 

- Examples

 

a. Fencing (Chain-link, Wood, Corrugated Metal, Reinforced Steel)

- Able to be climbed/scaled by the player (akin to RDR)

- Provide various levels of cover and concealment

 

b. Sandbags/HESCO Bastions

- Able to be vaulted by the player

- Provide a defensible position from which to defend

 

c. Tank Traps/Concertina Wire

- Able to be defeated with various tools (sledgehammer and wire cutters respectively)

- Able to stop vehicles and players, forcing them to clear the obstacles

 

2. Area/Entry Denial Items

- These items require a dedicated counter-item, and are designed to keep people out of your base

 

- Examples

 

a. Door (Wood [common], Hardened Wood [uncommon], Corrugated Metal [rare], Steel [extremely rare])

- Designed to outright stop a player from entering a building (assume all doors are deadbolted from the inside)

- Provides various levels of resistance against damage

- Able to be destroyed via the use of a dedicated item (crowbar [common], fireaxe [uncommon], firearms [rare], and thermal lance/welding kit respectively [extremely rare])

 

b. Locks (Doorknob [common], Padlock [uncommon], Heavy Padlock [rare], High Security Padlock [extremely rare])

- Designed to provide another layer of protection to doors

- Able to be destroyed via the use of a dedicated item (sledgehammer [uncommon], breaching round [rare], bolt cutters [rare], breaching charge [extremely rare])

- The threshold of rarity in counters is higher for locks, owing to the fact that you already have a door denying entry.

 

I'm sure there's some inaccuracies (as I'm sure a breaching charge would probably be best served in other applications] but you get what I mean.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Katana67

[Evil Minion 943]

As base building would probably be fairly involved and it should have its uses countermeasures should also be pretty involved. However, no base should be indestructable or impossible to break into because then we would have static hoarding places that slowly drain the dynamics.

 

It should probably be a combined system where constructive and destructive action should be balanced out against each other:

• You can find a lock with one or two keys. However not every lock is unique but there is a significant but finite number of different ones. So chances are someone who collected plenty of keys or just happens to have the same log himself can access your storage if you gets there. Then you might find rare and probably quite unwieldy items like a bolt cutter that can be used to destroy locks without requiring the right key.
• Having a stationary safe secured by a numbers lock might be more secure as you can not use a lucky key or simply destroy the lock with a bolt cutter. Now you could try all combinations if you got time for that (have a buddy bring food and water and another secure your back) or you could use very rare explosives to blast it open potentially damaging items inside. However this type of store should also be very rare.
• Building a barricade might require a lot of effort and barricading an area would require multiple barricades (probably having to use tools like welders to fortify).I think once an area is barricaded you can only enter it through a gate - if included - or by having logged out inside the (finished) barricade, after the area was declared "barricaded" (may or may not include stopping people from entering the area). Everyone else who wants to log in inside that area finds himself spawning outside instead. Now actually destroying a barricade would probably require a lot of the aforementioned very rare explosives - or something like a tank. Blasting the gates might be easier (see stationary safe) but won't remove the "barricaded" property but only allow you to enter it by force.
• ...

As a rule of thumb you should need to put about the same effort in building something and in raiding it. Making it impossible to raid or destroy bases should be avoided at all costs as it would hurt the gameplay. Any kind of "artificial ownership" (an item having a defined owner) should be avoided in favor of "authentic ownership" (its yours as long as nobody takes it from you) as defined ownership also cripples the game mechanics. In a similar way things should be able to be detroyed/cracked open etc. if you apply enough damage - but in an authentic way. No matter how often you shoot this steel gate with you M4 or punch it it won't be destroyed. Instead you would need special equipment (explosives, a road roller, a rocket launcher) to damage it.

 

I can also see some structures requiring multiple "layers": First weaken the structure by applying massive damage then using a special tool to bend it before finally blasting it apart.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Evil Minion

[SirSmokalot 0]

Good morning guys, i couldnt resist and made an account just to add my 2 cents to this topic.

 

I would like to see an item based system which is about the combination of "layers" of defense (yeah i have to use this word to, but in a different way than the post before.

These "layers" would be like:

1. improvised Fort-style Walls made of Trees (I hope you get what i mean, sorry I´m no native speaker) - Axe or you wont get in + it will take some time to get through

2. Barricade made of barbed wire - Boltcutter or you wont get in

3. Reinforced wooden door with lock - sledgehammer or lockpicking kit

4. A steel door with combination-lock - now it gets difficult, you will need a welder or something

5. A landmine, IED, Beartrap exactly lying in the doorway you will need something to deactivate the booby trap.

6....

7..

Im going out of Ideas but i think you guys will have some more.

I think it should all be about the combination of these layers, so if you invest much time in barricading your house it should take a massive amount of time to break in, BUT nothing should be indestructible with the right tools. So this is where the Layers come into play.

 

Example:

One dude secured his stuff inside a building and he just barricaded it with some planks or somethin and it took him 10 minutes to do so, if you have an axe and 10 minutes of time all his stuff are belong to you^^

 

Example 2: A group of people invested many hours (maybe 50) to barricade their home with all that shit above and maybe more so the tools required are: Axe, Boltcutter, Welder, Lockpick, Defusekit

with the (assumed) rarity of lockpicks, welder and defusekits and the amount of time you need to axe your way through the walls, cut you through the wire, weld through the door it gets a pretty big thing to break into this base. And maybe there is nothing in there worth the hassle. Aaaaaand... If only one tool is missing (like the defusekit in the end :D) youre screwed!!

 

This will prevent one single guy breaking in the best defended base (he couldnt even carry the tools), building a base would be something that is worth it because it will be relative safe, BUT well organized Squads could break every Fortification if they are willing to work hard for it

EDIT: It has to be damn hard to break in because imagine the hassle to get the stuff to your base (barbed wire, Steel plates) a running vehicle is a must before even thinking of housing, so we have to make ist even harder to break in, otherwise noone would build a base. On the other Hand i dont like the Idea of having things secured the way nobody CAN get them. So i think this is an approach which is more or less realistic, is easy to balance (need for transport of material, rarity of tools) and there remains the possibility of failure even with big squads, remember only one tool missing and there is no reward.

 

I hope you guys like this idea. Maybe you have some ideas you wanna add or you see the major flaws in this system. Feel free to discuss

(again, if something is unclear feel free to ask, I´m german and my english became a bit rusty :D)

 

TL;DR:

Different type of barricades -> different tools to break em

combination of barricades -> combination of tools needed

if one tool is missing -> Screwed, no breaking through

Edited August 31, 2014 by SirSmokalot

[omgwtfbbq (DayZ) 1069]

There is no reason I shouldn't be able to chop down a door with a fireaxe. This isn't Rust; there shouldn't be password-locked wooden doors. A padlock is the most they should go, which even then can be broken.

[JonySK 60]

It should be really difficult to break into someones base. If it was easy it would be pointless spending hours building a base.

Edited September 1, 2014 by JonySK

[Bororm 1156]

There is no reason I shouldn't be able to chop down a door with a fireaxe. This isn't Rust; there shouldn't be password-locked wooden doors. A padlock is the most they should go, which even then can be broken.

 

Have you played Rust? because you could chop down wooden doors easily, and there weren't any passwords involved...  Metal doors required c4 though.