Should Rocket go sooner rather than later?

[chodeofwar 145]

 

look at Arma 3 Breaking Point as an example. its soooooooooooooo far ahead of SA its embaressing tbh.

 

 

I am a huge fan of BP for Arma 3 but after 600hrs of that I have returned to the SA, for now.

 

*************************

@OP

 

As far as this whole argument goes any criticism about the SA can be directed squarely at B.I. It's their game now.

 

You can't single out one person in company and say "you should get the sack". You don't really know anything about B.I. or its employees or how the company is structured and run.

 

It might be a good Idea to get rid of Dean, it might not, who knows? Certainly not you.

Edited August 27, 2014 by chodeofwar

[Etherimp 1323]

Hey, software developer here. Everything is NOT supposed to be broken in an alpha. In fact, during an alpha all features are normally implemented with (at a minimum) placeholder content and every implemented feature should be working as bug-free as possible. ;)

 

 

Please show me the software you've developed so I can criticize it. And yes, everything is supposed to be broken in Alpha. Alpha = Add features, some features break other shit, some things are not done, most stuff is placeholders.. Beta = Bugfix/patch things up.

 

Since you're a software Dev, I figured you'd know this.

 

Now, seriously.. Where's your software? 

 

Have 2 million or more in sales?

 

No? Then Stfu..

 

 

 

Anyone complaining about this game only has themselves to blame: 

 

WARNING: THE GAME IS IN ALPHA AND IS SUBJECT TO A GREAT DEAL OF CHANGE AND DEVELOPMENT. PLEASE DO NOT BUY THE GAME UNLESS YOU YOU WANT TO PARTICIPATE IN THE DEVELOPMENT. PLEASE READ THE STORE PAGE CAREFULLY AND CHECK REVIEWS AND GAMEPLAY STREAMS BEFORE DECIDING TO PURCHASE.

 

Edited August 27, 2014 by Etherimp

[scriptfactory 620]

Please show me the software you've developed so I can criticize it. And yes, everything is supposed to be broken in Alpha. Alpha = Add features, some features break other shit, some things are not done, most stuff is placeholders.. Beta = Bugfix/patch things up.

 

Since you're a software Dev, I figured you'd know this.

 

Now, seriously.. Where's your software? 

 

Have 2 million or more in sales?

 

No? Then Stfu..

 

I'm not sure what sales have to do with my opinion but I will share my experience with you. I'm a senior software engineer for a F2P game publisher in Europe. I have been working in this job field since 2002. I don't sell my software, I sell my services. A few million players use software I helped develop every day. Am I allowed to have an opinion now?

 

While bugs can be expected in software released during its alpha phase of development everything is not "supposed to be broken". The general developer mantra is, "make it work well then make it work fast." We can see this exemplified even by the DayZ programmers. They are continually working to fix bugs in their software as soon as they are created.

 

In the future, if you have questions about certain comments I have made or wish to ask my opinion on a certain subject please ask. I will not "shut the fuck up" but thank you for the offer.

Cheers, old man. ;)

 

Edit: Please don't take the "old man" as an offense. I have seen one your videos and I believe you are only a year older than me. I meant it sarcastically because many of your comments are reminiscent of a teenager. :)

Edited August 28, 2014 by scriptfactory

[Etherimp 1323]

I'm not sure what sales have to do with my opinion but I will share my experience with you. I'm a senior software engineer for a F2P game publisher in Europe. I have been working in this job field since 2002. I don't sell my software, I sell my services. A few million players use software I helped develop every day. Am I allowed to have an opinion now?

 

While bugs can be expected in software released during its alpha phase of development everything is not "supposed to be broken". The general developer mantra is, "make it work well then make it work fast." We can see this exemplified even by the DayZ programmers. They are continually working to fix bugs in their software as soon as they are created.

 

In the future, if you have questions about certain comments I have made or wish to ask my opinion on a certain subject please ask. I will not "shut the fuck up" but thank you for the offer.

Cheers, old man. ;)

 

Edit: Please don't take the "old man" as an offense. I have seen one your videos and I believe you are only a year older than me. I meant it sarcastically because many of your comments are reminiscent of a teenager. :)

 

So what you're saying is that bugs are expected in Alpha and the DayZ Dev team is doing exactly what they should be doing by ATTEMPTING to fix as many bugs as possible that hamper the alpha build, while balancing that against the fact that they are still implementing features and that certain new features may break other things, so they should just leave those alone until Beta?

 

'Cause, that's pretty much what they're doing... And I don't see you disagreeing with that. The only thing I see you disagreeing with is "Everything is supposed to be broken".. Perhaps you took that phrase a little too literal. I meant: Alpha is supposed to be a hodge-podge of unfinished features with a lot of bugs.. Once they finish adding the features to alpha, THEN they'll work on ironing out the bugs and making the game much more playable.

 

As to your Software/dev experience, I really don't care.. I appreciate that you may have experience in that field and I didn't mean to say you DON'T have that experience; only that it seems like everyone around here acts as though they are in a position to judge Dean/BI/the DayZ Dev team, which they're not.. I don't care if you have 20 years of experience working for EA and pumping out AAA titles.. It really doesn't give anyone any right to judge how this project is currently going. We all punched the "I AGREE" button after reading, "Yo, this shit is borked."

 

If shit is still borked once the game goes gold, THEN we ALL have the right to bitch non-stop ... And trust me, if the game is fucked upon release, or gets fucked after release, I will not hesitate to come strong and hard with the complaints. Go read my threads concerning the recent surge of hackers, or my thread criticizing them for not fixing the non-local sound bug; which, by the way, was acknowledged by Dean shortly after and he said it was "a high priority". I'm with a lot of people here on these issues, you just don't see me questioning Deans leadership or saying he should "go".. Because that's not my fucking place to say and it's not yours and it's not anyones. 

 

As I said before: Judge the game, not the man.. Keep the complaints rational and measured and don't attack the guy who has been nothing but kind to the community at large and has proven time and time again how much passion he has for this project.

 

 

As to the teenager comment - I'm a blunt person and I'm losing patience with some of the people in this thread. "stfu" is internet vernacular.. Not sure how that is reminiscent of a teenager, but w/e.. Furthermore, I don't remember asking how old you were nor should you care how old I am.. Hope you enjoyed the videos.

 

 

Oh, also.. You say you've helped contribute to a F2P project... Can you please link me to the forums so I can go there and tell everyone that plays that game how I don't think you should be on the project because you don't know how to code and your leadership skills suck?

Can you imagine if I did that? How insulting is that? The mere suggestion is a slap in the face, isn't it? That was my point in asking for your software experience. Golden rule - Treat others how you would like to be treated. People in this thread have been attacking Dean, not the game. That's where I have a problem.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Etherimp

[stielhandgranate 480]

Please show me the software you've developed so I can criticize it. And yes, everything is supposed to be broken in Alpha. Alpha = Add features, some features break other shit, some things are not done, most stuff is placeholders.. Beta = Bugfix/patch things up.

 

Since you're a software Dev, I figured you'd know this.

 

Now, seriously.. Where's your software? 

 

Have 2 million or more in sales?

 

No? Then Stfu..

 

That is the stupidest thing I've read here in awhile. I have you been a politician? No? Than you can't criticize anything regarding politics. I also guess you were wrong to complain about hackers last week since you aren't a hacker.

[Etherimp 1323]

That is the stupidest thing I've read here in awhile. I have you been a politician? No? Than you can't criticize anything regarding politics. I also guess you were wrong to complain about hackers last week since you aren't a hacker.

 

There's a difference between criticizing a politicians decisions, and criticizing the politician as a man.

 

Saying "Obama has made decisions which I do not support, I think he should have done X Y Z instead of A B C" is a reasonable criticism..

 

Saying "I don't like Obama 'cuz he's an Islamic Terrorist!!" is an irrational attack on a man.

 

Saying "I do not like the current direction of development.. I wish they would stop releasing clothing and fix the sound bug" is a reasonable (although ignorant) criticism.. 

Saying "Dean should leave the team because his leadership skills fucking suck and this game is gonna fail with him at the helm" is an irrational attack on a man.

 

Make more sense now?

 

Also, your statement about complaining about hackers makes no fucking sense.

 

I guess you have no right to complain about murderers, because you aren't a murderer? 

I guess you have no right to complain about child molestors, because you aren't a child molestor?

Apples and oranges, man.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Etherimp

[scriptfactory 620]

I now understand I shouldn't take any of your comments literally thank you for the explanation.

 

Can you imagine if I did that? How insulting is that? The mere suggestion is a slap in the face, isn't it? That was my point in bringing up your software experience. Golden rule - Treat others how you would like to be treated. I'd figure someone who's 33 would understand that by now. I guess some never learn.

 

Treat others how you expect to be treated? Sarcasm aside, I believe I have been quite respectful in the majority of my posts. Being blunt isn't the same as telling a person to "shut the fuck up" if they haven't created a game that has sold 2 million copies. You have been fairly rude to me in every one of your comments. Perhaps you should take a dose of your own advice.

I will drop the topic now. Good day, sir.

[Etherimp 1323]

I now understand I shouldn't take any of your comments literally thank you for the explanation.

 

 

Treat others how you expect to be treated? Sarcasm aside, I believe I have been quite respectful in the majority of my posts. Being blunt isn't the same as telling a person to "shut the fuck up" if they haven't created a game that has sold 2 million copies. You have been fairly rude to me in every one of your comments. Perhaps you should take a dose of your own advice.

I will drop the topic now. Good day, sir.

 

For the record 

 

1. I edited my post because it was admittedly rude, and I recognize that and fixed it..

2. I wasn't saying YOU criticized Dean, but a lot of people in this thread have, and it seemed from my perspective that you had jumped on their bandwagon.. if you had not, then my apologies.

[stielhandgranate 480]

Saying "Dean should leave the team because his leadership skills fucking suck and this game is gonna fail with him at the helm" is an irrational attack on a man.

 

I don't think anyone here is attacking him as a person. However there are several people here that think he has been a less than successful Dev. He may be a nice person, but his priorities have often been in the wrong place. Such as the dev blog post where he shows off the progress of the standalone in per-alpha and fiddles with a compass lid, something that really adds nothing of value to the game experience, or the fact that M4 carbines are enhanced by fancier polymer furniture, something as a military vet, he should know does not effect weapon performance. People aren't wrong criticize when it is warranted and it will be more constructive for the devs to read and learn what their community thinks they are doing wrong (such as the strong opinion on this forum against the devs limiting ammunition types to make the game easier to players to lazy to read the in game item description) rather than hang out on reddit's r/dayz and read countless "You guys rock,take your time, lel awesome work" comments.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Dale Gribble

[Etherimp 1323]

I don't think anyone here is attacking him as a person. However there are several people here that think he has been a less than successful Dev. He may be a nice person, but his priorities have often been in the wrong place. Such as the dev blog post where he shows off the progress of the standalone in per-alpha and fiddles with a compass lid, something that really adds nothing of value to the game experience, or the fact that M4 carbines are enhanced by fancier polymer furniture, something as a military vet, he should know does not effect weapon performance. People aren't wrong criticize when it is warranted and it will be more constructive for the devs to read and learn what their community thinks they are doing wrong (such as the strong opinion on this forum against the devs limiting ammunition types to make the game easier for players too lazy to read the in-game item description) rather than hang out on reddit's r/dayz and read countless "You guys rock,take your time, lel awesome work" comments.

 

 

I'm all for constructive criticism and constructive dialogue. Problem is the majority of these threads do not have that. Most people clearly do not understand the development process and a lot are simply entitled brats bitching and complaining because they can't have things "their" way. As I've said already a half dozen times - Criticize facets of the game. Criticize when there are problems which we feel are unacceptable (9 months of non-local sounds..hackers not being dealt with.. etc).. Those are things that the Dev team actually has some control over, or should, and that they should eventually get sorted out. When Dean responded saying non-local sounds are "A priority", I shut up about them because I did my job as a tester, I posted bug reports, I complained about it on the forums after 8 months of it being an issue and not being addressed, then I shut up.. After I saw the post about them wiping the hive and I had several mods/devs respond concerning my complaints about hackers, I backed off.

 

Yes - Make noise. Yes - complain. Yes - Give feedback.

 

But don't say "Dean's leadership skills suck he needs to leave he's bad for the team he's inexperienced and a bad coder", etc etc.

 

That shit doesn't do anyone any good, it's rude, it's ignorant, and it's disrespectful. 

 

 

 

edit: and yes, people have been attacking Dean.. Read back in this thread. .Shit, read the first post.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Etherimp

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

@OP

 

To be honest I don't think that you can blame Rocket for what is wrong with the game. Whether he stays or leaves has little to no impact on the development at all.

 

In the very, very beginning of the development, the whole company made one huge mistake: Instead of using the old, outdated and certainly limited Arma II / Take On Helicopters engine, they should have programmed a new engine from scratch or used an approproate 3rd party product such as CryEngine, Unity or Unreal instead.

 

Most of the delays and problems we are facing right now emerged because the engine DayZ is currently using was never meant to handle a game like DayZ. The amount of objects (loot) and characters (players+zombies+animals, later cars) was simply too much for an egine that was meant to serve for a mostly singleplayer (!) simulation. So basically the devs had to rewrite the whole servercode which took a lot of time and actually took longer than writing a server from scratch.

 

Same with physics and ragdoll: While most modern engines natively support some kind of physic engine (e.g. Havok), the devs have to basically fit an new engine into the servercode of a 5 year old game. 

 

However, none of this is (only) Rockets fault. Blame whoever made the stupid engine decision.

How often am i going to read this....

 

Bohemia Interactive has it's own in house engine, they are NOT going to pay licensing for a 3rd party engine, there is no discussion to be had there. Whether their engine is good or bad is out of the equation, it's something they already have, that they made, that they know like the back of their hand, why would they spend a sizable chunk of their budget on a 3rd party solution?

 

Every single mature game engine out there has been in continuous development at least for the past 10 years.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Lady Kyrah

[GriefSlicer (DayZ) 84]

I thought the forum admins would lock this thread by now... last time I touched on a sensitive topic (peoples obliviousness of the development process" it got locked to avoid heat. Seems like this has of course copped the heat. 

[blacklabel79 949]

CryEngine, Unity or Unreal instead

I doubt those engines Support such a massive map...

[stielhandgranate 480]

I doubt those engines Support such a massive map...

 

http://www.crydev.net/viewtopic.php?f=355&t=86359

 

max terrain size per map is 262x262 km

 

 

Not bad seeing how Dayz+ map size is 225x225 km and looks for lack of a better word, shittier.

 

 

How often am i going to read this....

 

Bohemia Interactive has it's own in house engine, they are NOT going to pay licensing for a 3rd party engine, there is no discussion to be had there. Whether their engine is good or bad is out of the equation, it's something they already have, that they made, that they know like the back of their hand, why would they spend a sizable chunk of their budget on a 3rd party solution?

 

Becuase while BIS may know the engine well, it is limited and dated. It would have been better to use the newer Real Virtuality engine found in ArmA 3 and built a new map from scratch to match the size of Altis, rather than recycle the map from the mod. As far as "spend a sizable chunk of their budget" I'm sure the profit so far far out strips production costs.

[blacklabel79 949]

http://www.crydev.net/viewtopic.php?f=355&t=86359

 

 

 

Not bad seeing how Dayz+ map size is 225x225 km and looks for lack of a better word, shittier.

Thats just a Forum post...thus worthless...While it MIGHT technicly possible to have a map this size in cryengine..whould it run well?

Anyways..this is way too hypothetic to come to a good conclusion. We have what we have...deal with it...

Edited August 28, 2014 by {Core}BlackLabel

[stielhandgranate 480]

..whould it run well?

 

Are you implying the current build of SA or the mod ever "ran well"? It's clear the engine is struggling, but you are right in the sense that we have to "deal with it".

[blacklabel79 949]

this is not really fruitatious...

lets see if and how Performance might increase in the future builds...since PERFORMANCE tweaks mostly come alot later in development but thus due to the renderer Change we might se a increase in Performance after suchsessfull implementation.

As for OP....

i couldent care less...the guy had shitaton of luck on his side with the dayZ mod, right time, right place, and a "cult" following...why not making as much cash off off this as you could ?

When his contract is done..ist done...

Edited August 28, 2014 by {Core}BlackLabel

[scriptfactory 620]

I doubt those engines Support such a massive map...

 

Every major game engine could infinite maps through the use of level/map streaming. Every single one.

[blacklabel79 949]

Every major game engine could infinite maps through the use of level/map streaming. Every single one.

*please provide proof of concept ;) good luck...( and i mean a WORKING one... :D

[scriptfactory 620]

*please provide proof of concept ;) good luck...( and i mean a WORKING one... :D

 

Do you know any C++? I'm actually working on one for UE 4. If I ever finish it I will send you the source.

[blacklabel79 949]

Do you know any C++? I'm actually working on one for UE 4. If I ever finish it I will send you the source.

...10 years later... :D

hihi

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

http://www.crydev.net/viewtopic.php?f=355&t=86359

 

 

 

Not bad seeing how Dayz+ map size is 225x225 km and looks for lack of a better word, shittier.

 

 

 

Becuase while BIS may know the engine well, it is limited and dated. It would have been better to use the newer Real Virtuality engine found in ArmA 3 and built a new map from scratch to match the size of Altis, rather than recycle the map from the mod. As far as "spend a sizable chunk of their budget" I'm sure the profit so far far out strips production costs.

Building a map like Chernarus takes ages, it's easily the most detailed map BIS Has made so far (Altis is bland and uninteresting in comparison). Ask the few rare people who made maps for the arma serie (There is only a few "new" community on each game of the serie for a reason) how long it took them.

 

People who never programmed seems unable to grasp the idea that when you develop an in-house engine you don't really have the "Arma 3 version" on one side and the "DayZ version" on the other. You can borrow code from one side to the other, should you want to.

 

There are many cool features in Arma3 that will never be in DayZ and DayZ features that will never be in Arma3, because guess what, it's a different game with a different scope and at some point you just stop adding features.

 

While modders usually wish for as many features as possible, they generally only get what the devs needed to create the game they wanted, nothing more.

[stielhandgranate 480]

I was under the impression that a lot of the time taken to bringing the game into open alpha was impart to get a bigger map and a polished engine. To my disappointment the devs decided to cannibalize as much as they could from Arma 2 and adopt the problems in doing so. While Altis may be "Bland" it is a better foundation than Chernarus as it is bigger and features from Chernarus could have been ported in while having a whole new library of resources such as buildings to use. Does it make me bitter? Yes. Is it wrong to want more than the ArmA 2 map with minor differences? No. 

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

I was under the impression that a lot of the time taken to bringing the game into open alpha was impart to get a bigger map and a polished engine. To my disappointment the devs decided to cannibalize as much as they could from Arma 2 and adopt the problems in doing so. While Altis may be "Bland" it is a better foundation than Chernarus as it is bigger and features from Chernarus could have been ported in while having a whole new library of resources such as buildings to use. Does it make me bitter? Yes. Is it wrong to want more than the ArmA 2 map with minor differences? No. 

So your argument is that it's bigger so it's better?

[stielhandgranate 480]

So your argument is that it's bigger so it's better?

 

Yes, right now the only way to "expand" the map is to add more towns and at this point it is just repeating the same buildings and narrowing the areas in game suitable for base building. If the map was Altis sized then this would be less of an issue. When server space increases (from what I understand it is planned to be up to 100) it will hinder the experience as well and perhaps lead people to camp out dead servers for bases and migrate to populated servers for player interaction, which I feel is a negitive. 60 slot servers in Breaking point do well as there are areas that are still suitable for player bases but still allow the player to get that paranoia that he/she may be in occupied territory when in a town or city but can be put at relative ease when in a forest or island off the beaten path.