Adding dynamism to gunfights

[soulfirez 901]

You SHOULD be able to do a fast sidestep. It's the the obvious solution to melee combat and breaching.

Please pick up a gun aim it then try side stepping as fast as you can out then back in behind a wall and tell me how smooth and natural it feels in real life.... There is a reason soliders lean around corners to shoot because it doesnt have you off balance it gives you a steady position to fire from where you might actually hit something without a spray and prey mentality.

 

People say they dont want arcade handling but this is what they want sorry that IS arcade handling....

[Etherimp 1323]

Solution to what?  Breaching is fine.

 

Melee combat is a mess overall, I don't think faster strafing is going to help that any, in fact it would probably make it even worse as the game is already so janky from the speed at which players move.

 

Breaching is .... wonky at best. I have some video I could edit down and show you examples of how it's very complicated to do properly and some quality of life changes could be made to retain realism while providing better responsiveness in these kinds of critical and mortally dangerous situations, but honestly I'm too lazy to put the editing work in.

[Bororm 1156]

Please pick up a gun aim it then try side stepping as fast as you can out then back in behind a wall and tell me how smooth and natural it feels in real life.... There is a reason soliders lean around corners to shoot because it doesnt have you off balance it gives you a steady position to fire from where you might actually hit something without a spray and prey mentality.

 

People say they dont want arcade handling but this is what they want sorry that IS arcade handling....

 

Not to mention you have cover.  Seriously, who the fuck is going to step fully exposed real quick to try to shoot some one before popping back behind the corner.  That shit's for the movies and arcade shooters, and it's mainly in arcade shooters because they don't have a lean feature to begin with!

[gibonez 3633]

Strafing is pretty bad. Peeking is impossible in this game. Sidestepping should definitely be possible.

I took the uphill running to mean the current uphill movement is pretty bad. I should always be able to jog up a hill. I should never be forced to a crawl unless the include is so steep that I am actually forced to crawl...

 

Strafing is not that bad it is perfectly useable , the peeking needs work I feel almost like you should be able to peek a little further.

 

The running uphill problem is merely because there is no transition between full speed sprinting and walking, the times where you begin to walk is when the incline of the hill is insane.

 

They need a transition animation between walking and sprinting so that you still struggle to go up inclines but arent left with a weird walking animation. The speed that you travel on in steep inclines is perfectly fine.

[Etherimp 1323]

Please pick up a gun aim it then try side stepping as fast as you can out then back in behind a wall and tell me how smooth and natural it feels in real life.... There is a reason soliders lean around corners to shoot because it doesnt have you off balance it gives you a steady position to fire from where you might actually hit something without a spray and prey mentality.

 

People say they dont want arcade handling but this is what they want sorry that IS arcade handling....

 

 

While I've never been in an actual gunfight, I'm fairly sure you haven't either... But, let's work with something we know... Have you ever done paintball or airsoft battles? I have, and I had no problem moving quickly around the battlefield and lobbing a barrage of paintballs about 1/2 way across a soccer field and landing them on peoples face-masks while strafing and running sideways. 

<-- Running that way ^ firing that way.

 

Of course, there's not any real recoil on a paintball gun, and the ballistics are quit different, but none of that has shit to do with my physical limitations - IE - the ability to run and shoot at the same time.. accurate or not.

[Etherimp 1323]

Not to mention you have cover.  Seriously, who the fuck is going to step fully exposed real quick to try to shoot some one before popping back behind the corner.  That shit's for the movies and arcade shooters, and it's mainly in arcade shooters because they don't have a lean feature to begin with!

 

Have you ever considering the possibility that maybe some of us are using strafing/leaning in conjunction? Problem being that your strafing/movement is UNPREDICTABLE. 

[gibonez 3633]

While I've never been in an actual gunfight, I'm fairly sure you haven't either... But, let's work with something we know... Have you ever done paintball or airsoft battles? I have, and I had no problem moving quickly around the battlefield and lobbing a barrage of paintballs about 1/2 way across a soccer field and landing them on peoples face-masks while strafing and running sideways. 

<-- Running that way ^ firing that way.

 

Of course, there's not any real recoil on a paintball gun, and the ballistics are quit different, but none of that has shit to do with my physical limitations - IE - the ability to run and shoot at the same time.. accurate or not.

 

You don't need to be involved in a firefight to know how the human body functions and what movement is realistic or not.

 

Peoeple simply do not strafe or move like they do in first person shooters. The simple act of moving side ways is unnatural.

[hotcakes 348]

Please pick up a gun aim it then try side stepping as fast as you can out then back in behind a wall and tell me how smooth and natural it feels in real life.... There is a reason soliders lean around corners to shoot because it doesnt have you off balance it gives you a steady position to fire from where you might actually hit something without a spray and prey mentality.

 

People say they dont want arcade handling but this is what they want sorry that IS arcade handling....

These Arabs with American weaponry seem to recommend it. They must be legit.

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=397_1361145329

[Etherimp 1323]

You don't need to be involved in a firefight to know how the human body functions and what movement is realistic or not.

 

Peoeple simply do not strafe or move like they do in first person shooters. The simple act of moving side ways is unnatural.

 

 

Apparently you do, because I just explained in the post you quoted how it's done.

[Bororm 1156]

Have you ever considering the possibility that maybe some of us are using strafing/leaning in conjunction? Problem being that your strafing/movement is UNPREDICTABLE. 

 

I just don't have any issue at all with current strafing and leaning mechanics so I don't understand the issue.  And basically all I do in this game is pvp all day, a large majority of it breaching buildings.

[Bororm 1156]

These Arabs with American weaponry seem to recommend it. They must be legit.

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=397_1361145329

 

You can already do what's described in that video, what's the issue?

[hotcakes 348]

You can already do what's described in that video, what's the issue?

 

No, you can't. You become as slow as a snail with your gun up.

[Etherimp 1323]

I just don't have any issue at all with current strafing and leaning mechanics so I don't understand the issue.  And basically all I do in this game is pvp all day, a large majority of it breaching buildings.

 

 

I've stated my issue many times over... Strafing is slow, clunky, and unpredictable.. If you breach as much as you say (and I don't doubt you do), then you'll know that currently the only way to do it reliably is to "tap" your side-strafe while you're "walking", as to peek as slowly as possible and "slice the pie". This is fine... but to do it more quickly, it becomes unreliable where it shouldn't be.

[Bororm 1156]

In the mod I had my guy taking extra steps, where he'd randomly do a sideways hop, I've never encountered that bug in the SA.

 

I mean I do agree agree, that any bugginess present is an issue, movement is janky with extra animations randomly playing etc.  I just don't agree that the movement speed itself is too slow.  If it all controlled properly, and your character didn't decide to do random ass shit, I think the actual speed would be fine.

 

Part of the issue imo is that run speed is too fast as it stands, making these slower movements seem even slower.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Bororm

[gibonez 3633]

relevant: http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/2c6at8/been_a_dayz_supporter_since_day_1_can_or_will/cjch03w?context=3

 

 

-rocket

 

That quote is refreshing.

 

Glad to see realism will play a major role when it comes to movement.

[Funkmaster Rick 373]

I tried to show a friend standing behind me some DayZ gameplay. He asked me if my character had ALS. </thread>

[scriptfactory 620]

That quote is refreshing.

 

Glad to see realism will play a major role when it comes to movement.

 

Am I reading this correctly? Rocket said the controls were too responsive before so they intentionally added delays?... /sigh

I never thought the day would come where I would wish DayZ had controls like Arma 3. At the very least they could fix the problems with the hotbar and vaulting.

[Bororm 1156]

Am I reading this correctly? Rocket said the controls were too responsive before so they intentionally added delays?... /sigh

I never thought the day would come where I would wish DayZ had controls like Arma 3. At the very least they could fix the problems with the hotbar and vaulting.

 

A large part of the tension that comes from DayZ, especially in the mod, was the clunkiness.  Whether intentional or not, getting stuck into animations and having your character not instantly react to controls added a lot of tension and frustration, which created a large part of the overall experience of the game.

 

What rocket is saying is that he recognizes this, and that they want to maintain that feel while obviously ironing out the shitty parts.  There's a fine line between the character not controlling how you'd expect, and responding too quickly to input that you have to strike to maintain that feeling.  Obviously the game is far from perfect in that regard.

 

The delays he's talking about are additional animations and such, not just delays for the sake of delays.  Transitional animations etc, so that you aren't going straight from eating to sprinting, or straight from being prone to standing etc.  You should be able to cancel a bandage, or eating animation, but it shouldn't necessarily be instantaneous.  That is the sort of thing he is discussing and what DayZ needs to maintain if it wants to still feel tense.

 

I think another good example is having to load weapons through your inventory if you don't have a magazine.  I personally love having to reload "manually" and those little things add a ton to the experience compared to being able to just hit R, even if you don't have a mag.

 

The other end of the spectrum is being able to quick swap weapons, go straight from one animation to another etc, and then you end up with something more akin to most arcade shooters.

 

It's something I was very skeptical about when the SA was announced, if they'd be able to maintain that clunkiness but in a way that actually makes sense.  I'm extremely happy they're being mindful of it.

[soulfirez 901]

These Arabs with American weaponry seem to recommend it. They must be legit.

 

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=397_1361145329

He is not doing rapid side straffing not even close he is using angles leans and stepping off one foot by all means if they can make the engine replicate this god yes put it in.

 

But for your Doom arcade style side straffing ya can jam that it doesnt belong in this sort of game. If they put it in i hope they add a chaingun then ill just do what i did in Doom and thats strafe while firing like crazy worked great in a arcade game

[Dagwood 680]

I love how this entire thread ignores zombies and how our ease/difficulty in scrambling will affect their lethality. A couple of you mentioned breaching and how movement speed affects how effective we can do that. Maybe they don't want us doing swat breaches on scared loners trying to escape the undead. Maybe a guy holed up in an apartment with a shotgun is supposed to have the advantage over the two assholes hunting him with ARs.

I wish another studio would release a tactical shooter with permadeath to steal all of these ultraleet fps gamers that don't care about the roleplaying and socializing aspects of dayz. The adreliline rush that is a side effect of permadeath is why these players play dayz.

If you want a game that allows you to perfectly project your tactical combat abilities at a 1:1, there are numerous other titles that strive to do so.

[gibonez 3633]

No, you can't. You become as slow as a snail with your gun up.

 

 

Yes as slow as a snail indeed .... /s

 

The strafe speed is perfect in this gif. It is not natural to move quickly side to side. mechanically speaking its not natural to move in that manner thus when we must we do so with lower speed and caution.

[Bororm 1156]

If anything, the weapon lowered strafing is even slightly fast imo.  But raised, it is pretty much just fine.  I don't see any reason why it should be faster than that.

Edited August 3, 2014 by Bororm

[gibonez 3633]

If anything, the weapon lowered strafing is even slightly fast imo.  But raised, it is pretty much just fine.  I don't see any reason why it should be faster than that.

 

I agree its a little too fast when the weapon is lowered and it even looks comical looks like the character is skipping or has to poop.

[Etherimp 1323]

I love how this entire thread ignores zombies and how our ease/difficulty in scrambling will affect their lethality. A couple of you mentioned breaching and how movement speed affects how effective we can do that. Maybe they don't want us doing swat breaches on scared loners trying to escape the undead. Maybe a guy holed up in an apartment with a shotgun is supposed to have the advantage over the two assholes hunting him with ARs.

I wish another studio would release a tactical shooter with permadeath to steal all of these ultraleet fps gamers that don't care about the roleplaying and socializing aspects of dayz. The adreliline rush that is a side effect of permadeath is why these players play dayz.

If you want a game that allows you to perfectly project your tactical combat abilities at a 1:1, there are numerous other titles that strive to do so.

 

 

A guy holed up in an apartment with a shotgun has the advantage of a defensive position; IE - he has his back to a wall and cannot be flanked, and he dictates where the battle takes place, and he SHOULD have the reflex advantage.

 

This is true no matter what your movement is like... 

 

On the other hand, someone assaulting that apartment has the advantage of surprise. "Breaching" is like peeling an onion. You have to pry open the defensive shell and make space for you to work in. This is completely skill based and should not be negated just because you like to PVE.

 

Using your logic - There are plenty of Co-op and PVE based survival games out there... if you don't like PVP, go play those.

[Etherimp 1323]

 

Yes as slow as a snail indeed .... /s

 

The strafe speed is perfect in this gif. It is not natural to move quickly side to side. mechanically speaking its not natural to move in that manner thus when we must we do so with lower speed and caution.

 

 

Now do that in 1st person on a full 40 player server with other players around the corner ready to shoot you.