The Troubling Issue of Magazines

[DeatHTaX 1217]

in a world gone to crap situation, there wouldn't be this many guns just lying around.  or ammo.  not even close.  if someone dropped/left a weapon, it would ONLY be because it was empty.

 

and if there were a cache of weapons/ammo at a military base it should be locked up - you should have to find some explosives and blow the door, attracting every zombie for miles.

 

Is all of this based on your vast experience with worlds gone crap?

 

I mean I don't mean to sound like a dick, but I think it's hilarious when people try to tell me "Well in an apocalypse, this and this and this"....I'm sorry how many of these have we lived through? lol xD I mean wouldn't it make sense that in a world "gone crap" everyone would want their hands on a gun? Thus making them more common? Just a thought...

 

 

ANYWAY

[hombrecz 832]

 

A small, talking 10% (that's what I voted for) chance of spawning an empty magazine with a weapon would be acceptable to me. But not attachments, ever, in any condition.

 

This is a matter, ironically (given the folks that I've seen be proponents of this, like Gibonez and Hombre), of streamlining the actual act of getting your weapon up and running. Which is far, far, far more significant than just streamlining the number of ammunition types available to the player. This actually has a tangible effect (versus an ambient effect) on how the player gears.

 

I don't know where you stand on the "ammunition" issue so it's not in reference to you that I say this, and it's not strictly relevant, but it's just odd to me how some of the most staunch detractors of streamlining ammunition are all in-favor of streamlining the actual act of getting your weapon up and running.

 

It is very strange you typing this, because I clearly recal having typed below. If you want to check it, it was in a topic you have created called "Ballistic Vest - What should it do?" on page 4.

 

I do not see any harm in having small chance for said weapons (CR75,P1,Sporter) to spawn with empty magazine.

Plus their mags need to go to civilian loot as well and the sooner the better. This would actualy encourage their usage and make things interesting and variable.

 

Now you make this post and imply, that I am for streamlining things in general, which I obviously am not.

You were against twisting someone's words or assuming things, yet now you are doing exactly the same.

 

Btw I voted 10% here, same as you did, and I voted that military weapons should have lower chance of spawning with mag.

How on Earth, is this making me fan of streamlining, is simply beyond me.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Hombre

[King Raptor 191]

50% sounds good. I find more firearms than magazines which is completely stoopid. In fact, that is the reason why so many people snipe 'cause it is easier to find a fully operational SKS and Mosin than it is a sidearm.

 

Pretty sure there would be less or different KOS if people were forced to walk around with pea-shooters.

[Katana67 2907]

Now you make this post and imply, that I am for streamlining things in general, which I obviously am not.

You were against twisting someone's words or assuming things, yet now you are doing exactly the same.

 

Btw I voted 10% here, same as you did, and I voted that military weapons should have lower chance of spawning with mag.

How on Earth, is this making me fan of streamlining, is simply beyond me.

 

No, I never said your position is generally oriented toward streamlining.

 

I'm saying your position on ammunition variety and your position on this subject (two specific issues), totally conflict.

 

In one instance you're advocating for multiplicity in calibers for the sake of realism, while simultaneously decrying the developers for endorsing "casual" streamlining. And at the same time, you're also advocating for outright streamlining the gearing process. I mean, just mathematically, you have to do less to get your weapon going with this suggestion. That is streamlining, definition of.

[hombrecz 832]

No, I never said your position is generally oriented toward streamlining.

 

I'm saying your position on ammunition variety and your position on this subject (two specific issues), totally conflict.

 

In one instance you're advocating for multiplicity in calibers for the sake of realism, while simultaneously decrying the developers for endorsing "casual" streamlining. And at the same time, you're also advocating for outright streamlining the gearing process. I mean, just mathematically, you have to do less to get your weapon going with this suggestion. That is streamlining, definition of.

 

What you are omiting, and I'm affraid quite on a purpose, is that I specifically mentioned couple of the weakest firearms, plus I was talking about small chance of them having magazine. I mostly wanted their mags to spawn in civilian loot.

 

I fail to see how having this opinion collides with wanting game weapons having real calibers?

 

Or is it because I want real calibers, that I have to fight for everything being super realistic, like boots having different sizes?

I'm trying to see thing from gameplay and realism perspective as well and while correct calibers is something I see as important and good for the game, different shoe sizes I do not.

 

Even if game is often called running simulator, I do not believe the emphasis should be on the size of clothing. Weapons, obviously, are a lot more important for the whole gaming experience.

 

So please rephrase for me, what is it you do not agree with me on?

 

Magazines for certain weapons spawning in civilian loot? You said you agree.

Magazines for certain weapons having small chance (less then 10%) to spawn with them? You said you would accept that.

 

Or are we arguing for the sake of argument? Sometimes it seems so...

[Katana67 2907]

What you are omiting, and I'm affraid quite on a purpose, is that I specifically mentioned couple of the weakest firearms, plus I was talking about small chance of them having magazine. I mostly wanted their mags to spawn in civilian loot.

 

I fail to see how having this opinion collides with wanting game weapons having real calibers?

 

Or is it because I want real calibers, that I have to fight for everything being super realistic, like boots having different sizes?

I'm trying to see thing from gameplay and realism perspective as well and while correct calibers is something I see as important and good for the game, different shoe sizes I do not.

 

Even if game is often called running simulator, I do not believe the emphasis should be on the size of clothing. Weapons, obviously, are a lot more important for the whole gaming experience.

 

So please rephrase for me, what is it you do not agree with me on?

 

Magazines for certain weapons spawning in civilian loot? You said you agree.

Magazines for certain weapons having small chance (less then 10%) to spawn with them? You said you would accept that.

 

Or are we arguing for the sake of argument? Sometimes it seems so...

 

I'm omitting it, because it doesn't change your argument. You're asserting that magazines should spawn alongside weapons. It doesn't matter if they're weak/strong/rare/common. The fact that you're advocating for weapons spawning at the same time as weapons is the issue here.

 

It is streamlining the experience (I could care less if it is "realistic" or you think it's "realistic" or not, that doesn't matter either), I mean, you don't have to go find a magazine if it just spawns next to a weapon. That's how it conflicts. On one hand, you decry the developers for "streamlining" the game when it comes to weapon calibers. But at the same time, you support streamlining the very process of getting a weapon functional.

 

I said it's "acceptable" to me, not that I support the notion of spawning magazines alongside their respective weapons. That is the compromise I'm willing to make to my own position. Doesn't mean I support it indefinitely.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Katana67

[hombrecz 832]

I'm omitting it, because it doesn't change your argument. You're asserting that magazines should spawn alongside weapons. It doesn't matter if they're weak/strong/rare/common. The fact that you're advocating for weapons spawning at the same time as weapons is the issue here.

 

I'm affraid you are making a huge generalisation here. When I mention specific weapons, you should really not assume I talk about all weapons in general.

 

It is a big difference, from gameplay perspective, if SPECIFICALLY P1,CZ75 and Sporter can spawn with magazine, or when we are talking about M4's, SVD's or whatever. 

 

What I've mentioned leads to couple of underdogs to be more viable and used and absolutely NOTHING else.

People would still go and look for better weapons, no harm done.

 

But ok, lets continue in this pointless debate, where you clearly just want to argue using huge generalisations and other naysayer's  tools of the trade...

[BeefBacon 1185]

I'd like to see civilian magazines spawn in the same areas as their respective weapons. I'd also like to see a fair chance for low-tier weapons (specifically magazine-fed pistols and the sporter .22) to spawn with a magazine.

 

I never bother with pistols or any rifles besides the ones that don't require a clip (SKS, Mosin, etc). Hell, the only pistol I've ever used is the magnum because it doesn't require a clip or a magazine. It just works. If magazines spawned with low-tier weapons then I think we'd see more sporter .22s and fewer Mosins and SKSs. 

 

I also like the notion of increasing ammunition spawns, but decreasing the ammunition in each stack - so instead of finding 25 9mm rounds in a pile on the floor you'll only find, say, 1 - 10 rounds. Ammunition should spawn in the same quantities it does now, but spread over entire towns rather than being found in big piles.

[Katana67 2907]

I'm affraid you are making a huge generalisation here. When I mention specific weapons, you should really not assume I talk about all weapons in general.

 

It is a big difference, from gameplay perspective, if SPECIFICALLY P1,CZ75 and Sporter can spawn with magazine, or when we are talking about M4's, SVD's or whatever. 

 

What I've mentioned leads to couple of underdogs to be more viable and used and absolutely NOTHING else.

People would still go and look for better weapons, no harm done.

 

But ok, lets continue in this pointless debate, where you clearly just want to argue using huge generalisations and other naysayer's  tools of the trade...

 

No, it doesn't change the fundamental core of your argument. Which is what I'm saying, sure, I get that you want magazines spawning with specific weapons. I get that.

 

But it doesn't change what you're saying (i.e. that magazines should spawn with weapons), and it doesn't change what that means (i.e. a simplification of the gearing process). Whether it's for a Sporter or an M4A1, it simplifies the very process just to make it easier. Whereas you can just make it easier, whilst preserving the process.

 

If you want a "couple of underdogs to be more viable," then why is spawning magazines alongside them the solution? Wouldn't a better solution be to make the magazines for these weapons spawn more frequently? Which is what I've been saying all along. Spawning magazines alongside weapons solves a problem with a hammer. Spawning magazines at a higher rate, still preserves the act of having to find a magazine separately... whilst making finding magazines for the weapons you suggest much easier.

 

I mean, you can keep arguing about the fact that I'm arguing with you. But I'm trying to let you know that there are two issues in which your advocacy against "streamlining" conflicts.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Katana67

[hombrecz 832]

If you want a "couple of underdogs to be more viable," then why is spawning magazines alongside them the solution? 

 

That's what I wanted from the start. On the other hand I have zero problem with few of the weapons spawning with mag.

If you see that as worshipping of the god of streamlining, then so be it, I can live with that.

Although having realistic conditions in the game can be hardly called streamlining, as that implies something artificaly made up or adjusted from reality. 

 

Having only the export version of AK74 family in game, rustles my jimmies 10x more to be honest, but yes, there is a chance devs will remedy this later.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Hombre

[Katana67 2907]

That's what I wanted from the start. On the other hand I have zero problem with few of the weapons spawning with mag.

If you see that as worshipping of the god of streamlining, then so be it, I can live with that.

Although having realistic conditions in the game can be hardly called streamlining, as that implies something artificaly made up or adjusted from reality. 

 

Having only the export version of AK74 family in game, rustles my jimmies 10x more to be honest, but yes, there is a chance devs will remedy this later.

 

I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that you hold two opinions that conflict with one another on a fundamental level.

 

Streamlining does not imply something artificial or unrealistic in any circle. It implies something that's simplified as to be made more effective in and of itself, because that's what the word means and is how it's used. This is a case in which supposed "realism" provides for a streamlined system, vice a more rewarding and complex one.

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/streamline

 

Streamline (transitive verb)

 

- to make (something) simpler, more effective, or more productive

[hombrecz 832]

I didn't say anything of the sort. I said that you hold two opinions that conflict with one another on a fundamental level.

 

Streamlining does not imply something artificial or unrealistic in any circle. It implies something that's simplified as to be made more effective in and of itself, because that's what the word means and is how it's used. This is a case in which supposed "realism" provides for a streamlined system, vice a more rewarding and complex one.

 

You have forgotten, that I'm for realistic features to be built into the game and being lucky finding a gun with magazine is certainly plausible thing. 

 

There might lie a core of our argument. You are fighting for more rewarding gameplay, no matter how artificial and unlikely the means to achieve this might be. This will never be ok with me to be honest.

 

If, in some cases, the realistic means simple, I am ok with that.

I do not need some made up fantasy features to be put into the game, just because few players expect this to somehow lead to more rewarding experience. 

[Katana67 2907]

You are fighting for more rewarding gameplay, no matter how artificial and unlikely the means to achieve this might be. This will never be ok with me to be honest.

 

If, in some cases, the realistic means simple, I am ok with that.

I do not need some made up fantasy features to be put into the game, just because few players expect this to somehow lead to more rewarding experience. 

 

Now who's making generalizations? I have frequently, frequently advocated for realistic suggestions inasmuch as they benefit gameplay.

 

My point is that you cannot use the fact that the developers are "streamlining" the number of calibers as an argument, without being a hypocrite. You can only decry it based on the fact that it's unrealistic, not because it's simpler and/or catering to so-called "casuals."

 

There's nothing fantastical about anything that's been implemented, aside from the zombies of course.

[hombrecz 832]

Now who's making generalizations? I have frequently, frequently advocated for realistic suggestions inasmuch as they benefit gameplay.

 

My point is that you cannot use the fact that the developers are "streamlining" the number of calibers as an argument, without being a hypocrite. You can only decry it based on the fact that it's unrealistic, not because it's simpler and/or catering to so-called "casuals."

 

There's nothing fantastical about anything that's been implemented, aside from the zombies of course.

 

Surely you realize, that whatever you deem as benefit to the gameplay, might be far away from what other people think.

 

Anything I've ever advocated was realistic. Realistic calibers, mags for certain weapons as a part of civilian loot, some chance to gun spawning with mag....ALL of this is realistic no matter if you like it or not. Some of this might be beneficial to "casuals", some of it would not.

 

What is unrealistic is putting artificial obstacles infront of players. What if guns only spawned completely disassembled and you would have to loot specific trigger, receivers, bolt etc? That would surely lead into even more rewarding and non streamlined gameplay right? 

 

I might have exaggerated somehow, but since it is the trend in our arguments, why the hell not.

[Katana67 2907]

Surely you realize, that whatever you deem as benefit to the gameplay, might be far away from what other people think.

 

Anything I've ever advocated was realistic. Realistic calibers, mags for certain weapons as a part of civilian loot, some chance to gun spawning with mag....ALL of this is realistic no matter if you like it or not. Some of this might be beneficial to "casuals", some of it would not.

 

What is unrealistic is putting artificial obstacles infront of players. What if guns only spawned completely disassembled and you would have to loot specific trigger, receivers, bolt etc? That would surely lead into even more rewarding and non streamlined gameplay right? 

 

I might have exaggerated somehow, but since it is the trend in our arguments, why the hell not.

 

Yes, but I actually have a reasoning behind why I deem it as beneficial. "Realism" isn't in and of itself a reason for doing something, it isn't better or worse. It's just neutral, it's a trend. It doesn't add or detract in and of itself. Which is why I detest the blind assertion that "realism" makes for a better game, because I seldom see people actually make the argument for why it is the case.

 

This isn't just an exaggeration, people have literally said things to the affect of "It's realistic, do it because it's realistic."

 

And we're talking about subjective understandings, obviously. My line is drawn at what we have currently, magazines/weapons/ammunition spawning separately. But I actually frame my reasoning for that opinion in terms of how it affects DayZ.

 

Just saying "Because it's realistic" isn't a mode of argument, it's just a statement. When it's devoid of a why, why does this enhance DayZ?

 

You can advocate for "realistic" things, but there has to be a reasoning for doing so, and a reasoning why it should be the case. Something that I rarely see.

 

Anywho, sort of over it.

 

You know where I stand.

Edited July 27, 2014 by Katana67

[hannibaldaplaya 1095]

Surely you realize, that whatever you deem as benefit to the gameplay, might be far away from what other people think.

 

Anything I've ever advocated was realistic. Realistic calibers, mags for certain weapons as a part of civilian loot, some chance to gun spawning with mag....ALL of this is realistic no matter if you like it or not. Some of this might be beneficial to "casuals", some of it would not.

 

What is unrealistic is putting artificial obstacles infront of players. What if guns only spawned completely disassembled and you would have to loot specific trigger, receivers, bolt etc? That would surely lead into even more rewarding and non streamlined gameplay right? 

 

I might have exaggerated somehow, but since it is the trend in our arguments, why the hell not.

 

I completely agree with you, Hombre. I'm all for rarity, realism, and such, but what is unrealistic about a chance that a gun spawns with an empty mag, an attachment, or something like that?

 

It makes sense, especially with scopes, as if it is a civilian rifle and the owner had a scope for it, he probably kept it on his rifle after he sighted it in.

 

Plus, you can always make the attachments, scopes, or mags that spawn with the guns damaged. You can also make it so that the gun actually needs repairs, meaning that it is functional but prone to things like, say, jamming. I liked how STALKER Misery did this, other then the ridiculous cost of repairs and requirements for certain repairing items to work.

[hombrecz 832]

I completely agree with you, Hombre. I'm all for rarity, realism, and such, but what is unrealistic about a chance that a gun spawns with an empty mag, an attachment, or something like that?

 

It makes sense, especially with scopes, as if it is a civilian rifle and the owner had a scope for it, he probably kept it on his rifle after he sighted it in.

 

Plus, you can always make the attachments, scopes, or mags that spawn with the guns damaged. You can also make it so that the gun actually needs repairs, meaning that it is functional but prone to things like, say, jamming. I liked how STALKER Misery did this, other then the ridiculous cost of repairs and requirements for certain repairing items to work.

 

I've never said it's unrealistic finding weapon with mag  :) . I voted for 10% chance of that happening and probably less for military weapons.

My personal opinion is mix of realism and gameplay meaning I would prefer "underdog" weapons to have bigger chance of spawning with mag (say those 10%) as oposed to M4, AKM or SVD once that is in. I think it would be beneficial for the gameplay since people would use these weapons more, but they would still want to upgrade to something better.

 

And yes, I hope that weapon cleaning kits will have important role, it's just that it is probably early for that.

It would be so cool if M4 needed more maintenance than AK74/AKM.

 

Oh how I wish DayZ SA travelled like a year forward in time and then came back.

I so hope it would be THE GAME so many of us wish for.

[pilgrim* 3514]

Did I not state that ammunition should be rare?

..//..

 

I agree

 

Stands to reason that ammo for a 'civilian' gun should be found in 'civilian' locations.

If you find a hunting/varmint weapon in a village, you should look around the same village to find rounds for it. It could be that ammo is rare, so you might not find any, but you should still be looking in that area and not going off to a military base, etc.. that's a nonsense

 

I know there will be a lot of changes and adjustments on the way, to balance spawns and maybe to establish 'rarity' .. so it could be you have common ammo for a rare gun, or a gun pretty easy to find, but ammo for it almost unobtainable. etc..

But that doesn't have anything to do with where you find the ammo. So if maybe there is not (for instance) a magazine with the gun, they should spawn in that same area.. or maybe on the same loot table ?

 

I expect (I hope) this distribution will be made more logical as the spawn system is developed and fine-tuned.

IRL if you were a survivor and found a gun, where would you look for ammo ?

[DarkShaman667 3]

Not having guns spawn with empty magazines is nearly the same as spawning a revolver without a cylinder or a bolt rifle without a bolt.

 

For a weapon to function to the best of its ability it needs to have all of its parts and be a complete system for a magazine fed weapon that indeed means a magazine.

 

At the very least all magazine fed weapons should spawn in with 1 empty magazine that should be like bare minimum. 

and if there are 2 types of mags, than it should spawn with the smaller one! and 100% empty!

 

and on top of that, I think extra magazines should spawn empty or at least not with the full capacity of rounds in them~ *looking at the 75rnd drum mag*

Edited September 5, 2014 by DarkShaman667

[Rags! 1966]

Balance > Realistic Probability

 

I agree with the OP (pyeayouknowme). Word.

 

Firstly, I think that the 75 round drum magazine is stupid. It shouldn't be in the game. Finding 75 bullets in a SINGLE LOOT SPAWN is ridiculous, especially since the guns that use it are extremely common. 

 

People need to look at this with some level of perspective...a drum magazine, which can spawn in jeeps all over the map, gives you these three things...

 

- seven and a half full clips for the SKS...

- fifteen full magazines for the carbine...

- 7.5 seconds of fully automatic fire from an AKM...

 

You get lucky with a single loot spawn, and boom. You're set. Power should be spread out, looking for things should be stressed. Ammo should be the primary concern of balancing here, I think. 

 

Finding weapons should be balanced with the notion that you have to constantly balance the Risk and Ease of Access with these guns with their Fuck Shit Up Potential (That's FSUP). Even though it's more "realistic" (The dirty video game "R" word...) that a military weapon have a magazine with it, giving the same advantages to weapons with a greater FSUP like the AK101 and the AKM is just a bad game decision. Think back on every time you found an AKM or an AK101 without a magazine...

 

"I have a weaker, but functional weapon with me, but...I could drop my current working gun and take the risk of going unarmed and hope I find a magazine and ammo for this even better gun..."

 

THIS should be the DayZ weapon mantra! Not "I bet I can apply for a Blackwater Private Security job in an hour after spawning."

 

There are, of course, a myriad of ways to fix this. I have no problem with weapons being easy to find so long as ammunition is rare. I would relish the idea of making it about 10% easier to find weapons in their respective spawns but have ammunition be found in about 50-75% less quantities at a time. 

Edited September 5, 2014 by Rags

[Demoth 366]

People keep using words like, "fun gameplay" and "fair" around. I truly don't think people understand what this game is striving for.

This game is tryig to strive for realism as much as it can; for authenticity.

It's not realistic by ANY stretch to find every gun unloaded with bullets and mags always flung to the wind.

It's a game of chance. If I died from a surprise attack if zeds while unprepared from day 1 of the outbreak, most people going through my community for food and supplies would find very little in terms of weaponry because gun laws are so strict.... but they would hit mega jackpot when they got to my house.

Pistols, shotguns, assault rifles, lots of spare mags, and boxes full of ammo.

As of now, gearing up is boring because the loot tables haven't been completely randomized. Everyone knows where to b-line to get what they need.

But making it so loot is SO random that every gun had all of its necessary parts scattered like some crazy D&D quest is not only unrealistic, it's obnoxious. It ruins the thrill of hitting a jack pot, but also creates an unnecessary time sink.

Should every gun be found with all of its mags and ammo and accessories? Hell no. Should finding stockpiles be common? GOD no.

But eliminating it all together is just bad design.

[Rags! 1966]

People keep using words like, "fun gameplay" and "fair" around. I truly don't think people understand what this game is striving for.

This game is tryig to strive for realism as much as it can; for authenticity.

 

If you don't have "fun gameplay" then your authentic game is an authentic piece of shit. 

[ColdAvoral 20]

I agree with allot of what has been said above. I think a small chance be it 10% of weapons spawning with a mag (full, empty, half full or whatever) or a random scope, stock fore-grip or other attachment but with varying levels of wear. Even things like a missing stock. Already sawn off mosins and shotguns too. Never a fully kitted out weapon but enough minor variation would create a sense of weapon variety. You might find an ak without a stock or a mosin with a scope but its badly damaged or suchlike. Thus keeping the search real for that pristine scope or such. But i agree small chances are best.

Mags spawning in the right places for availability based on were the weapon is found is highly likely ti be done when loot is rebalanced but i think this will be best addressed in the beta phase.

I do however think actual ammo should be the main item of rarity between ammo weapon and a Mag.

[Demoth 366]

If you don't have "fun gameplay" then your authentic game is an authentic piece of shit. 

And "fun gameplay" is completely subjective. Some of us find the grueling, harsh, yet fairly authentic protrayal of things as a welcome departure from the flood of casual bullshit saturating the market.