What Weapons Warrant Being Hyper-Rare and/or Regulated?

[Katana67 2907]

In your opinion, what weapons warrant being regulated by the upcoming "loot management" system?

 

This system will ostensibly limit the overall number at any given time of certain rare items, deemed appropriate for regulation, on the hive.

 

It is time for a conversation about which weapons actually warrant this status or not.

 

Bear in mind, there are a multitude of criteria which can be used to weigh whether or not something should be rare. These criteria include, but are not limited to, things like - modularity, lack of modularity, rarity of ammunition, commonality of ammunition, innate ballistic strengths, innate ballistic weaknesses, weapon behavioral strengths, weapon behavioral weaknesses, "setting plausibility", etc.

 

Personally, I feel that the line has to be drawn at battle rifles and/or DMRs. Assault rifles do not warrant being regulated via the "loot management" system because they are inherently middle-of-the-road weapons. They are inherently intermediate. They are inherently a jack-of-all-trades weapon. Good at only being flexible, not effective in any one given niche.

 

And even then, there is certainly wiggle room with regard to battle rifles. For instance, if a battle rifle (like the SVT-40 or M1 Garand) is included it may not be as capable as some of the other inclusions. So it isn't necessarily a good thing to deem one particular "class" of weapons as a candidate for regulation.

 

In short, I think the line should be, generally, between assault rifles and battle rifles. With the former staying as a respawning, but still rare, loot item. And the latter being moved to a regulated, fixed population, loot system.

 

Here is a sample of what I believe would make the best divide between respawning and fixed-number weapons, in terms of overall classes.

 

Regulated/Fixed (Descending, from rarest to most common, in terms of overall rarity/numbers)

1. Purpose-built Sniper Rifles (TAC-300, ORSIS T-5000, SV-98, TRG-42, etc.)

 

2. GPMGs/LMGs (M249, PKM, M240B, etc.)

 

 

3. Battle Rifles/Designated Marksman Rifles (FN FAL, HK G3, Mk 11/M110/SR-25, Mk 17, SVD, etc.)

 

 

4. Semi-automatic Shotguns (M1014, Saiga-12, etc.)

 

 

Respawning (Descending, from rarest to most common, in terms of overall rarity/numbers)

1. Assault Rifles (AKM, M4A1, AK-101, etc.)

 

2. Submachine Guns (MP5K, PM-73, etc.)

 

3. Bolt-action Hunting Rifles (Mosin-Nagant, CZ 527, etc.)

 

 

4. Pump-action Shotguns (Remington 870, MP-133, etc.)

 

 

Please recognize that the lists I've put forth are not comprehensive (pistols and other weapons have been left out). I just wanted to give you an idea of what could be the case. And there is certainly the opportunity for a more granular approach to rarity within each respective class.

 

To a large extent, it's about where you draw the line. So I'm curious as to what you think.

 

Please keep the conversation both civil and on-topic. Vitriolic discussions of a particular weapon's "plausibility" are not welcome here. This is solely for the purposes of discussing which weapons and/or categories of weapons should be regulated, and which should be respawning as the norm. I had debated making a poll, but couldn't make one with enough questions to accommodate everything.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Katana67

[Grimey Rick 3417]

Is your list based solely on weapon strength/effectiveness? Does it consider potential real-world likelihood of certain weapons even being present in the game's setting?

The list seems pretty good from a gameplay perspective, though.

[Katana67 2907]

Is your list based solely on weapon strength/effectiveness? Does it consider potential real-world likelihood of certain weapons even being present in the game's setting?

The list seems pretty good from a gameplay perspective, though.

 

It's just a general hierarchy. Within that hierarchy, there's a multitude of different possibilities (which I hinted at in this statement "Bear in mind, there are a multitude of criteria which can be used to weigh whether or not something should be rare. These criteria include, but are not limited to, things like - modularity, lack of modularity, rarity of ammunition, commonality of ammunition, innate ballistic strengths, innate ballistic weaknesses, weapon behavioral strengths, weapon behavioral weaknesses, "setting plausibility", etc.")

 

I couldn't have a concise thread, without simplifying it.

 

But you're right, there are a multitude of criteria to deem whether something should be regulated or not. Especially within the generalized weapon types, like having the SVD be more common relative to something like a Mk 11.

 

I've used this example before, with regard to how I believe individual weapon categories should be tiered internally.

 

1. SVT-40

• Common-Uncommon
• Uses Common-Uncommon ammunition (7.62x54R)
• Limited modularity, only capable of mounting one attachment or none at all (probably just an optic if any)
• High power, medium range, low rate of fire, high recoil
• 10-round magazine capacity

2. M14

• Uncommon-Rare
• Uses Uncommon-Rare ammunition (7.62x51)
• Slightly increased modularity, capable of mounting two attachments (an optic and perhaps a suppressor or bipod)
• High power, medium range, medium rate of fire, high recoil
• 20-round magazine capacity

3. FN FAL or HK G3A3

• Rare
• Uses Uncommon-Rare ammunition (7.62x51)
• Enhanced modularity, capable of mounting two weapon-specific attachments AND several generic attachments after looting a separate rail system (like the M4A1 and AKM now)
• High power, medium range, select-fire, medium-high recoil
• 20-round magazine capacity

4. SR-25 or Mk 17

• Very Rare
• Uses Uncommon-Rare ammunition (7.62x51)
• Innate modularity, capable of mounting all generic attachments without looting a separate rail system
• High power, medium range, select-fire, medium recoil
• 20-round magazine capacity

 

But as you can see, if I'd've done that with each weapon category... the thread would've been exponentially longer and would've bled too much into the "Suggestions" category vice sparking discussion.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Katana67

[evil koala 22]

I'd personally like to see all loot be permanent, ala Project Zomboid. It would require that after certain point the server be reset, but that would make the game more immersive to be there from the beginning and also help prevent server hopping. Of course this would only be feasible if/when they add more homesteading aspects (farming, building, etc..).

[Parazight 1599]

This is a great question! For mid/late Beta.

 

Let me play with all of the items in the game during beta.  Before that, you can't really make balancing decisions.

[DeatHTaX 1217]

When it comes to weapon loot spawn, it's probably one of the major aspects of this game I would like realism to be involved. Weapons such as the Mosin and .22 weapons should be very common. Military weapons of any kind should be ultra rare. That's about as much as I have thought about it thus far

[Katana67 2907]

I'd personally like to see all loot be permanent, ala Project Zomboid. It would require that after certain point the server be reset, but that would make the game more immersive to be there from the beginning and also help prevent server hopping. Of course this would only be feasible if/when they add more homesteading aspects (farming, building, etc..).

 

If you mean persistent, then perhaps. Some loot does have to respawn though, including the loot on the "fixed" loot management system. Likewise, said respawns have to have "cleanups" wherein unused loot is recycled.

 

This is a great question! For mid/late Beta.

 

Let me play with all of the items in the game during beta.  Before that, you can't really make balancing decisions.

 

I see no reason why we can't or, more importantly, shouldn't have this conversation now. We're talking about innate capabilities of these weapons as concepts.

 

We need to decide what should be subsumed under the moniker of "hyper-rare" and weigh what capabilities warrant consideration for the fixed loot system.

 

When it comes to weapon loot spawn, it's probably one of the major aspects of this game I would like realism to be involved. Weapons such as the Mosin and .22 weapons should be very common. Military weapons of any kind should be ultra rare. That's about as much as I have thought about it thus far

 

I agree, but not because it's realistic. The Mosin and .22 LR weapons should be relatively common because they aren't that good in comparison to other weapons.

 

Likewise, one's definition of "military" weapons is subjective (and, as I would argue, totally irrelevant/inapplicable).

 

I don't see any reason, realistic or pragmatic, as to why things like assault rifles should be "ultra rare." From the "realism" perspective, one need look only as far as the recent conflict in Ukraine. The separatists/rebels/militants aren't fighting with bows and arrows, they're fighting with weapons looted from national guard outposts (primarily AK-74s) and/or privately acquired weapons.

 

For the "pragmatic" reasons, things like assault rifles (as I've said in the OP) are inherently middle of the road weapons. Just as concepts, they are designed to be intermediate in all aspects. Intermediate cartridge, intermediate range, intermediate magazine capacity, intermediate length. Assault rifles occupy the territory between full-rifle cartridge firing weapons (like sniper rifles and BRs/DMRs) and submachine guns firing pistol cartridges.

 

They aren't meant to be the best at any one thing. They're meant to be a jack of all trades. Only really good at being able to perform at acceptable levels in a wide variety of situations. Rather than being really good in their dedicated application.

Edited July 21, 2014 by Katana67

[DeatHTaX 1217]

 

I agree, but not because it's realistic. The Mosin and .22 LR weapons should be relatively common because they aren't that good in comparison to other weapons.

 

Likewise, one's definition of "military" weapons is subjective (and, as I would argue, totally irrelevant/inapplicable).

 

I don't see any reason, realistic or pragmatic, as to why things like assault rifles should be "ultra rare." From the "realism" perspective, one need look only as far as the recent conflict in Ukraine. The separatists/rebels/militants aren't fighting with bows and arrows, they're fighting with weapons looted from national guard outposts (primarily AK-74s) and/or privately acquired weapons.

 

For the "pragmatic" reasons, things like assault rifles (as I've said in the OP) are inherently middle of the road weapons. Just as concepts, they are designed to be intermediate in all aspects. Intermediate cartridge, intermediate range, intermediate magazine capacity, intermediate length. Assault rifles occupy the territory between full-rifle cartridge firing weapons (like sniper rifles and BRs/DMRs) and submachine guns firing pistol cartridges.

 

They aren't meant to be the best at any one thing. They're meant to be a jack of all trades. Only really good at being able to perform at acceptable levels in a wide variety of situations. Rather than being really good in their dedicated application.

 

Hmm. Fair enough. Well stated

[Evaris 61]

Personally as one point, modularity should be realistic - if something can be attached to it in real life, I personally believe you should be able to attach it in-game. 

 

For rarity, again I'd base off of realism via general statistics of guns IRL in east europe.  IMO, all weapons should respawn for the sake of new players on 24/7 servers, but the rate of respawn should be based on strength and/or realistic rarity of a specific weapon.  Like every 1-4 hours for something like a Mosin (the most realistically common hunting rifle)   but a time span more like every day or even week for something like an M4. 

[trev186 389]

I think a good pattern to follow would be to break each weapon/item down into categories and then maybe having a "king" of each category that is very rare as opposed to just blocking out one class of weapon as super rare.

 

This way you can have that "hidden gem" BUT without locking players out of one aspect of gameplay only attainable by having that gun.

 

Then the question in my mind is how or which weapon do you choose in each category to make ultra rare?

 

One method is by "does that realistically spawn here" but that argument does not make the gun desirable...look at the current M4 spawn issue due to the heli glitches....The AKM is comparable enough or even better in some ways. I have met a lot of people willing to toss their M4s for AKMs or MP5-Ks even though those are more common then an M4 right now.

 

The other aspect could be like a slightly different variant of an existing gun that offers unique benefits over the more common gun ( for example higher damage or better attachment capabilities) Hopefully they do not make magazines for this ultra rare gun also ultra rare otherwise it will be useless. You could then maybe make the "ultra rare" gun a different variant of a non ultra rare gun. Stalker did this....if you played stalker you would come across variants of guns which there were only one or two of in the game and held normally by special people or hidden in special stashes. These guns offered a slight perk in some ways vs others (like a scope custom modded to fit a gun you normally could not place a scope on etc). This way now the ultra rare gun can use a common magazine from the non rare variant. Again look at the M4 vs AKM scenario the NATO ammo has become very rare in game and the best source is off other players....which at the rate we die in dayz means by the time the next patch is out there could be very few M4s and or ammo for them left in player's hands

 

Example of a special 1 of a kinda weapon in Stalker as a rare variant:

 

http://stalker.wikia.com/wiki/Sniper_VLA

 

Finally there is a "coolness" factor. Choose a gun that is totally bad ass but not game breaking (maybe even not totally realistic). Again borrowing from Stalker here but the Gauss gun is a great example. It was a sniper rifle so to say but it shot electricity somehow....was fun to tinker with and supposedly exists in limited circumstances in real life...though I am not sure how realistic it is but still if it is ultra rare for the sake of being badass then who cares if it's realistic cause it is bad ass. With the Gauss gun maybe you could power it with batteries ...though the current 9 volts are pretty lame but then again they somehow power the defib

 

Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun

 

Stalker:

http://stalker.wikia.com/wiki/Gauss_gun

Edited July 21, 2014 by trev186

[gaerteuth 19]

Non-Soviet weapons should be rare, soviet weapons should be common as hell.

 

Military outfits should be regulated, I don't like DayZ looking like its a military sim, I want to see civilian clothes on everyone.

[trev186 389]

Non-Soviet weapons should be rare, soviet weapons should be common as hell.

 

Military outfits should be regulated, I don't like DayZ looking like its a military sim, I want to see civilian clothes on everyone.

 

Rather than make them rare in an environment under martial law and crawling with military dressed zombies why not just make it cosmetic? 

 

Also hopefully they make it more difficult to acquire military items not by making them more rare but making their spawn points more dangerous...

[Katana67 2907]

Personally as one point, modularity should be realistic - if something can be attached to it in real life, I personally believe you should be able to attach it in-game. 

 

For rarity, again I'd base off of realism via general statistics of guns IRL in east europe.  IMO, all weapons should respawn for the sake of new players on 24/7 servers, but the rate of respawn should be based on strength and/or realistic rarity of a specific weapon.  Like every 1-4 hours for something like a Mosin (the most realistically common hunting rifle)   but a time span more like every day or even week for something like an M4. 

 

I agree, but this also applies in areas in which some would feel inappropriate. Like having the Mosin be able to mount the LRS. It is sure as hell possible in real life.

 

So modularity in a game is sort of ubiquitously applied to all weapons. We don't have to carve out the stock of the Mosin to apply a PU scope. It's just point and click for weapons which are "modular" in real life and those that aren't, inasmuch as DayZ is concerned.

 

In other words, they can make any weapon as modular as they like... simply by virtue of the "point and click" system.

 

Then the question in my mind is how or which weapon do you choose in each category to make ultra rare?

 

I agree, but I can't really do that without making the post exponentially longer. In my mind, just the innate capabilities of a weapon (modularity, magazine capacity, damage, rate-of-fire, etc.) should come first. Then you have the circumstantial concerns (like ammunition rarity). And far less important by comparison to the first two, is the "setting plausibility" factor. Which isn't any one given thing, by virtue of DayZ being fictional.

 

Non-Soviet weapons should be rare, soviet weapons should be common as hell.

 

Military outfits should be regulated, I don't like DayZ looking like its a military sim, I want to see civilian clothes on everyone.

 

I agree with the first bit. But many people interpret the desire for non-Warsaw Pact weapons, even if they're rare, as some sort of affront to DayZ. Which is silly.

 

I disagree marginally with your second bit. I don't really have any issue with military outfits being unregulated. Granted, I believe they should be rarer than they are now. But they don't confer a huge advantage.

 

That and military gear is pretty widely available everywhere. I mean, Ukrainian rebels are sporting Multicam, DPM, and MARPAT gear pretty frequently.

[foxdie_01 121]

My List of Legendary Globally Restricted weapons & items (AKA Items you will never find) Don't have to be rare because they're good, cool factor should play and important part too!

 

WEAPONS
 

.357                                    

 

Derringer
RESIDENTIAL

 

.22                                    

 

ELEY 22 LONG RIFLE SPORT RIFLE (Olympic sport gun)
RESIDENTIAL

 

.45 ACP                                    

 

H&K UMP SMG
POLICE STATION & POLICE CARS

 

THOMPSON SMG
RESIDENTIAL

 

5.56                                    

 

SPR MK12
CRASH SITES

 

M249 SAW
CRASH SITES

 

SAIGA 223
RESIDENTIAL

7.62x54                                    

 

SVD
MILITARY

 

7.62x39                                    

 

VSS
MILITARY

 

RUGER MINI 14
RESIDENTIAL

 

12 Gauge                                    

 

SPAS12
POLICE STATION & POLICE CARS

 

Benelli M4
CRASH SITES

OTHER

 

Composite Bow
Tranquiliser Gun (Instant unconsciousness)
Medieval Long Bow
 

MELEE

LONG SWORD (residential)
KATANA (residential)
JAWS OF LIFE (Fire station)
RUSSIAN KNIFE GUN

 

ITEMS

LRS W/ Night Optics
NVGs
RANGE FINDERS
GPS

 

CLOTHES

 

CDC BIOSUIT
MEDIEVEL SUIT OF ARMOUR
EXPANDED HUNTING PACK
DRAGON SKIN ARMOR
CAMEL HYDRATOR
BALLISTIC MASK
KNEE PADS
ELBOW PADS

MOSIN SILENCER

 

Edited July 24, 2014 by foxdie_01

[Forrelist 236]

Heavy Marksman Rifles, DMR's and High-Caliber Snipers should be regulated - and their ammo types might even only spawn with the weapon and nowhere else. This would prevent people having stockpiles of ammo for a weapon that is unlikely to spawn, and help keep other loot in check.

 

Same for Light Machine Guns and squad automatic type weapons. insane firepower , at the expense of only having a couple drums/boxes.

 

I like to imagine that these types of weapons should only appear at US or NATO Crash sites/bases and would be extremely limited in Chernarus.

 

You could even have regulated civillian loot such as captured WW2 weapons and items. We don't just need to have guns, you could have Medals, parade uniforms and old gasmasks.

[Evaris 61]

Heavy Marksman Rifles, DMR's and High-Caliber Snipers should be regulated - and their ammo types might even only spawn with the weapon and nowhere else. This would prevent people having stockpiles of ammo for a weapon that is unlikely to spawn, and help keep other loot in check.

 

Same for Light Machine Guns and squad automatic type weapons. insane firepower , at the expense of only having a couple drums/boxes.

 

I like to imagine that these types of weapons should only appear at US or NATO Crash sites/bases and would be extremely limited in Chernarus.

 

You could even have regulated civillian loot such as captured WW2 weapons and items. We don't just need to have guns, you could have Medals, parade uniforms and old gasmasks.

See the main problem with this is many heavy marksman rifles and DMRs use 7.62x51mm rounds, so... yeah. 

[hombrecz 832]

That and military gear is pretty widely available everywhere. I mean, Ukrainian rebels are sporting Multicam, DPM, and MARPAT gear pretty frequently.

 

If you are "playing" realism card on this, then you might have forgotten that Ukrainian rebels are heavily supported by Moscow.

Without help of the Russians, they would hardly sport so much gear, hence your Ukrainian rebels reference is moot when talking about DayZ.

 

Anyway I agree, that military clothing should not be regulated, but should be more rare, certainly the western one.

 

Regarding weapon rarity it is nice to talk about it, although I doubt that devs will be swayed much by anything folks type here.

Also to have proper debate, we kinda would need to know, what weapons, or even weapon types,  will we be having in DayZ SA.

For example why talk about regulation of .50 cals, when they might not even be in the game?

Edited July 24, 2014 by Hombre

[OrLoK 16186]

Hello there

 

I'd like all rifles/pistols to be rare and ammo even more so. Improvised weapons should be the norm IMHO.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[nimmerzz 17]

When it comes to weapon loot spawn, it's probably one of the major aspects of this game I would like realism to be involved. Weapons such as the Mosin and .22 weapons should be very common. Military weapons of any kind should be ultra rare. That's about as much as I have thought about it thus far

Only problem with them being rare is that once somebody has one they become overpowered over the rest of the people. I say make the weapons available, but the ammo sparse. So even if you find one of these powerful weapons you will be hesitant to use it unless absolutely necessary. I'd like to see finding only maybe 5-6 rounds. So no sitting up on sniper hill taking pot shots. Every bullet counts.  

[SwitchSL (DayZ) 17]

 

"We need to decide what should be subsumed under the moniker of "hyper-rare" and weigh what capabilities warrant consideration for the fixed loot system."  -  Katana67

 

 

Parazight was spot on.  These discussions serve no purpose at this point in time.  For example, you say "It is time for a conversation" and "We need to decide" like it makes any difference at all.   You repeatedly use the word vitriolic as a form of protection in these inane threads.

 

I came back to this game in the last few weeks after buying it a few days after release, playing it for 3 hours and thinking, "That was a waste of $30", since the mod was and is still better than the current state of SA.  Fast forward 7 months and then some, to where we are today and I see some new clothing was added along with some potatoes.  So riddle me this:  Did everyone and their mother own a motorcycle and what is so appealing about opening all of your canned goods in a garage, tool shed, military prison building as opposed to your kitchen?

 

So, you want to discuss regulating weapons before the other 75% of them are actually in the game, compared to me just being curious about whether or not anyone on the dev team has any common sense?  The phrase "Take the money and run" seems plausible now, doesn't it?  If things do happen to take a drastic turn for the better before the New Year(and Dean's eminent departure), I will formally apologize for bursting into your thread.

 

 

 

Edit:  I have no idea why my post was totally converted into my initial quote... 

 

Edited July 24, 2014 by SwitchSL

[ZomboWTF 527]

Weapons shouldn't respawn at all

 

once per real-life day max

 

Or they definitely all need to be way way rarer

Edited July 24, 2014 by Zombo

[Zombie Jesus 723]

No gun should ever be regulated.

 

Murica out

[Evaris 61]

No gun should ever be regulated.

 

Murica out

[doctorbadsign 645]

I don't think I like the idea of regulating the number of any item across all servers... If that is what this loot management system is...

 

It encourages server hopping.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Weapons shouldn't respawn at all

 

once per real-life day max

 

Or they definitely all need to be way way rarer

Then you'd better get used to fistfighting for most of the game after a few weeks/months when most guns and even melee weapons start to get ruined and never respawn.