The Mosin Problem

[Insane Ruffles 74]

Alright, so the one thing that absolutely irritates me in the sense of realism is how un-realistic the Mosin is in Dayz. Any Mosin owner knows that Mosins CANNOT fit any sort of scope without altering the stock/sights, and even this needs to be done by a professional (Survivors are not going to be professionals.) At the very least, a scope or different sight should require a rail to be implemented, and this rail should have a chance of damaging the weapon as chances are someone isn't going to know how to do it exactly right. The other thing is the cleaning rod on the Mosin. The current model in game shows the cleaning rod attached, so why can't we use that combined with cloth to clean the gun barrel a bit? The point is, the Mosin needs to be changed because you can't just slide a scope on it, the Mosin 91/30 was not made for that, the M44 model was. 

[gibonez 3633]

haha

 

Yup initially I thought the mounting of the LRS on the mosin was merely due to the lack of any other modern bolt action rifles but as development continues and the game goes further into being more and more unrealistic I think its a permanent choice.

 

Next thing you know there will be m203s mountable on mosins.

 

This is what I expected when I heard the Mosin nagant was in the game.

 

 

But this is probably what we will get by the time the game is finished.

 

[Sgt (DayZ) 32]

That is quite true. The PU-scope is the one that was added for sniper rifle production, and some soviet snipers changed the scope it self to german counterpart at some points. But, true that, but still, I dont want them to change it because it's yet the only an actual sniper rifle at the game.

 

Still waiting for my SVD  B)

[Katana67 2907]

It also has an aftermarket/modified bolt-handle. It's clearly not the turned down sniper bolt-handle, nor is it the horizontal bolt-handle.

 

We're not playing as professionals or amateurs. We're playing as nobody. Our avatars in-game have no background as enforced/endorsed by the game. Any connotations of "character" are completely conjured up by the player, and have nothing to do with the game. There are no mechanisms to modify our weapons, so we have the PU scope and LRS as "click and use" attachments. Suspension of absolute realism is necessary, as this is a game.

 

The reason why the cleaning rod can't be used is that cleaning a rifle not only isn't implemented in DayZ as of yet, but that there's cleaning kits available as loot.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Katana67

[hannibaldaplaya 1095]

The PU scope should be the only one available for the mosin nagant. The rifle should be nothing more but a medium range bolt-action rifle that is easy to find, but nothing more then that.

[Bororm 1156]

I think some people take the realism thing a little too far.

 

Rocket has already addressed this by saying they are going for authenticity, not realism citing attachments as an example.  Get used to seeing attachments that wouldn't necessarily fit different guns, because the option is to either not allow them at all or to create a mountain more of work to accomplish the same effect.

[Katana67 2907]

I think some people take the realism thing a little too far.

 

Rocket has already addressed this by saying they are going for authenticity, not realism citing attachments as an example.  Get used to seeing attachments that wouldn't necessarily fit different guns, because the option is to either not allow them at all or to create a mountain more of work to accomplish the same effect.

 

Agreed.

 

And even then, it's not that it's impossible...or even uncommon... to see the attachments we're seeing in-game.

 

Mosin's have railed scope mounts available, they can be ordered on the internet for a paltry amount. Granted, I've never seen the rail on the Mosin in DayZ in real-life (as it appears to just be a different action entirely, as the rail is just on top of the receiver). But the concept is the same.

 

PU scopes, can be, and are, attached to the SKS. It's a relatively common modification to an SKS. The SKS is relatively optics-unfriendly, so folks work with what they have.

 

No game, ever, to my knowledge... has required people to be gunsmiths to attach optics to weapons. So, you can make the argument that "you need to modify the stock/sights to attach this optic." But it's sort of inefficient from a development perspective to design an entire mechanic just to attach an optic, when they can just... attach the optic. And I don't see much merit in the argument of "render it 100% accurately, or not at all."

 

Now, we can discuss whether or not the Mosin should be able to mount an LRS, for reasons of gameplay. But the pure realism bit is pretty irrelevant, and always has been in DayZ.

 

Likewise, it is insanely frustrating to see the merits DayZ be reduced to ONE SOLE FACTOR... it's "realism" in depiction of weapons.

Edited May 23, 2014 by Katana67

[gannon46 788]

if anything the guns are what a lot of us liked about the arma series and dayz. there attention to detail and the way they perform, and dayz is just doing whatever they want instead of using logic. if the scope shouldn't work then it shouldn't just because players need a sniper rifle that's not a good excuse to be un realistic and as for being authentic its not either and I see rockets choice of words in that regard as a loophole to do these sort of things. whats funny is april fools they released a picture(wished I'd saved it) of an m-107 with a drum mag an m203 grenade launcher and a NVG scope and I actually thought they were adding it due to the way they are implementing attachments and guns. why don't they just add the minigun and backpack magazine from predator and artillery and put a LRS on a 1911 with a laser sight that can be seen for miles away. I hope as the game progresses maybe they go back and change some things maybe wrong some rights and as for the SVD it was my favorite weapon in the mod can't wait to see folks complain that the scope doesn't zoom in to where you can see the whites of there eyes oh but they'll probably change that to the LRS style, by the way get rid of the zoom its BS.

[Bororm 1156]

derp

 

yeah, let's add drum magazines and holo sights for mosin, fuck realism.

 

ooh dear these tacticool people.

 

Surely you can see the difference?  Authenticity vs realism doesn't mean anything goes.

 

Cool attitude though, guy.

[Katana67 2907]

-snip-

 

Honestly, it's a bit hard for me to see the jump between "Mosin which can mount a scope other than a PU scope"...

 

 

... to "Bolt-action .338 LM Barrett MRAD with three optics, a drum mag, and a grenade launcher."

 

 

(Notice how one's a real image, whilst the other is a pink... computer-rendered image).

Edited May 23, 2014 by Katana67

[Insane Ruffles 74]

I think some people take the realism thing a little too far.

 

Rocket has already addressed this by saying they are going for authenticity, not realism citing attachments as an example.  Get used to seeing attachments that wouldn't necessarily fit different guns, because the option is to either not allow them at all or to create a mountain more of work to accomplish the same effect.

One of the reasons many people bought Dayz is because of the weapons and the realism they would simulate. Not having to adjust your scope to make the rifle more accurate is one thing, but making it so anyone can just magically plop on a scope on a weapon with no rail is inconceivable. 

[gibonez 3633]

It is not that the mosin cannot mount any modern optic its that its highly unlikely.

 

Why would anyone mount what looks to be a high end tactical scope on a 100 pos rifle ?

 

BTW that picture has the mosin mounted using a scout mount.

 

Scout mounts are far easier to install on mosins but require long eye relief scopes.

Edited May 23, 2014 by gibonez

[Insane Ruffles 74]

It is not that the mosin cannot mount any modern optic its that its highly unlikely.

 

Why would anyone mount what looks to be a high end tactical scope on a 100 pos rifle ?

Mosins are around 180 to 200 and they aren't pos at all, they were one of the main weapons used to drive the Nazi menace from the Mother Land (coupled with the T-34). Russian soldiers would be hitting center mass on an enemy soldier 200+ meters away, with iron sights. That is more accurate than most civilian weapons you see now a days such as the .308

[Grimey Rick 3417]

I think some people take the realism thing a little too far.

 

Rocket has already addressed this by saying they are going for authenticity, not realism citing attachments as an example.  Get used to seeing attachments that wouldn't necessarily fit different guns, because the option is to either not allow them at all or to create a mountain more of work to accomplish the same effect.

 

 

Agreed.

 

And even then, it's not that it's impossible...or even uncommon... to see the attachments we're seeing in-game.

 

Mosin's have railed scope mounts available, they can be ordered on the internet for a paltry amount. Granted, I've never seen the rail on the Mosin in DayZ in real-life (as it appears to just be a different action entirely, as the rail is just on top of the receiver). But the concept is the same.

 

PU scopes, can be, and are, attached to the SKS. It's a relatively common modification to an SKS. The SKS is relatively optics-unfriendly, so folks work with what they have.

 

No game, ever, to my knowledge... has required people to be gunsmiths to attach optics to weapons. So, you can make the argument that "you need to modify the stock/sights to attach this optic." But it's sort of inefficient from a development perspective to design an entire mechanic just to attach an optic, when they can just... attach the optic. And I don't see much merit in the argument of "render it 100% accurately, or not at all."

 

Now, we can discuss whether or not the Mosin should be able to mount an LRS, for reasons of gameplay. But the pure realism bit is pretty irrelevant, and always has been in DayZ.

 

Likewise, it is insanely frustrating to see the merits DayZ be reduced to ONE SOLE FACTOR... it's "realism" in depiction of weapons.

 

Again, citing the developers as the supreme chancellors of the knowledge of the universe. Who cares if it's a "lot more work"? They've already made more money than most games make after a full release. Let's see some results.

 

They wanted to market DayZ as an authentic/realistic survival horror experience, so let's see some more of that authenticity/realism and less random, stupid shit. The fact that there's a long range scope able to be slid on every Mosin in Chernarus is dumb. Why can't the B95 use it?

 

They're more concerned with adding new pants to the game than having the art team work on accurate representations of guns.

[Katana67 2907]

And, again, I've never heard anyone have an issue with the aftermarket (if not outright fabricated, certainly not the "standard issue" horizontal or specialized "turned-down" sniper variant) bolt-handle.

 

But the scope being potentially the result of an aftermarket modification, stop the presses.

[gibonez 3633]

Mosins are around 180 to 200 and they aren't pos at all, they were one of the main weapons used to drive the Nazi menace from the Mother Land (coupled with the T-34). Russian soldiers would be hitting center mass on an enemy soldier 200+ meters away, with iron sights. That is more accurate than most civilian weapons you see now a days such as the .308

 

Dude no just no.

 

Mosins might have been acceptable back in ww2 fighting nazis but even withing that war it was one of the worst bolt actions in service.

 

German Mauser, US springfield and the British Enfield were all better designs , and all substantially more accurate.

 

Now any I mean just about any 200 dollar hunting rifle is far more accurate than any mosin you can buy.

[gibonez 3633]

Again, citing the developers as the supreme chancellors of the knowledge of the universe. Who cares if it's a "lot more work"? They've already made more money than most games make after a full release. Let's see some results.

 

They wanted to market DayZ as an authentic/realistic survival horror experience, so let's see some more of that authenticity/realism and less random, stupid shit. The fact that there's a long range scope able to be slid on every Mosin in Chernarus is dumb. Why can't the B95 use it?

 

They're more concerned with adding new pants to the game than having the art team work on accurate representations of guns.

 

By the way the game is going I would not doubt they have attachments for the b95 they would do something like this though.

 

Taticool mall edition of the b95 or something.

 

Or they would add rails so you can mall ninja the heck out of your b95.

Dat double bayonet.

[Insane Ruffles 74]

Dude no just no.

 

Mosins might have been acceptable back in ww2 fighting nazis but even withing that war it was one of the worst bolt actions in service.

 

German Mauser, US springfield and the British Enfield were all better designs , and all substantially more accurate.

 

Now any I mean just about any 200 dollar hunting rifle is far more accurate than any mosin you can buy.

I own a Mosin, do you? I have shot multiple firearms including brand new .308's and I can guarantee you the Mosin's velocity, stopping power, and accuracy was better. Maybe I just got an amazing rifle, but I doubt it. The Mosin DOES shoot and hit accurately with iron sights at 200 meters and at center mass, any Russian soldier would guarantee it. They are also extremely tough and their ammo was easily produced. It could be 500 dollars and still be a good rifle. Also, the effective range goes up to 800 meters and sometime 1,000 meters, however that is beyond the limitations of the human eye and since the Mosin could not fit a scope, the human eye coupled with the Mosin was only effective up to 200 meters. Stupid human limitations :p.

Edited May 23, 2014 by InsaneRuffles

[gibonez 3633]

I own a Mosin, do you? I have shot multiple firearms including brand new .308's and I can guarantee you the Mosin's velocity, stopping power, and accuracy was better. Maybe I just got an amazing rifle, but I doubt it. The Mosin DOES shoot and hit accurately with iron sights at 200 meters and at center mass, any Russian soldier would guarantee it. They are also extremely tough and their ammo was easily produced. It could be 500 dollars and still be a good rifle. Also, the effective range goes up to 800 meters and sometime 1,000 meters, however that is beyond the limitations of the human eye and since the Mosin could not fit a scope, the human eye coupled with the Mosin was only effective up to 200 meters. Stupid human limitations :P.

 

200m is short range work all I am saying is if you want to get consistent hits at 800 yards you buy a remington 700 or a Tikka t3.

 

Mosins are fun guns dont get me wrong but they are junk only when compared to any modern rifle.

 

Mosins are affordable and super affordable to shoot but that is where its advantages end.

[Katana67 2907]

Nah, brah, they're so focused on civilian and/or melee weapons... with the direction they're heading in man, we're gonna' be fighting with these... DayZ is clearly a caveman arcade game now...

 

 

Do you see how vitriolic and illogical that is?

Edited May 23, 2014 by Katana67

[-Gews- 7443]

And, again, I've never heard anyone have an issue with the aftermarket (if not outright fabricated, certainly not the "standard issue" horizontal or specialized "turned-down" sniper variant) bolt-handle.

 

I do, so now you have. It's not "authentic" and it also looks wrong. The guy who modeled it did not appear to like the change either.

 

 

"I modeled the bolt straight

They bent it internally

And they bent it wrong"

 

 

 

 

 

 

But realism aside it creates the following problem: back in the mod, the Lee-Enfield was one of the most common weapons. The Mosin should have been the Lee-Enfield's replacement, a very common low-end iron-sighted bolt action. Allowing scopes to be instantly fitted means it is more like the CZ 550's replacement, the sniper's weapon, and must be more rare for "balance". There's no advantage to finding some other more modern bolt-action when the compensated Mosin already has perfect accuracy and they can all use the same scopes without issue. It would be better if you had to find a Mosin with turned-down handle and a mount already installed, or find the mount and turn the handle down yourself. Scopes aren't rare either. It's much easier to mount a modern scope on a modern rifle than on a Mosin. Same should apply in-game.

[Katana67 2907]

But realism aside it creates the following problem: back in the mod, the Lee-Enfield was one of the most common weapons. The Mosin should have been the Lee-Enfield's replacement, a very common low-end iron-sighted bolt action. Allowing scopes to be instantly fitted means it is more like the CZ 550's replacement, the sniper's weapon, and must be more rare for "balance". There's no advantage to finding some other more modern bolt-action when the compensated Mosin already has perfect accuracy and they can all use the same scopes without issue. It would be better if you had to find a Mosin with turned-down handle and a mount already installed, or find the mount and turn the handle down yourself. Scopes aren't rare either. It's much easier to mount a modern scope on a modern rifle than on a Mosin. Same should apply in-game.

 

Thank you, the one person who's actually interested in discussing how this affects gameplay and not just "realism."

 

I agree, however, there is something to be said for making the LRS itself rare versus removing capability from the (rightfully, in my opinion) common Mosin. Granted, there are issues with this (i.e. loot system, server hopping, etc.), but they're tangential/dependent. I hope they implement a "Hunting Scope" (a la CZ 550) eventually.

 

I have a hard time seeing how it'll be prudent to snag a dedicated "high-end" sniper rifle, while the Mosin is common and effective at the same ranges, if/when one is implemented.

 

EDIT - Question, if the option arose (I think I remember you talking about this recently, so forgive me if it's redundant) would you rather they'd've gone with all Mosins as sniper variants with correctly rendered bolt handles?

Edited May 23, 2014 by Katana67

[Etherious 907]

I wouldn't mind it if they just added a rail as an attachment to find then you could put a scope on it...but having to need a "professional" is just outright stupid. This isn't Life Simulator 2014, it's DayZ which is mostly realistic not 100% realistic.

[blacklabel79 949]

I think reading a book about weapons *make it generic* to be able to use the weaponkit to do such upgrades.

 

Also...rope+weapon

 

should allow second weapon on your back.

[Katana67 2907]

I think reading a book about weapons *make it generic* to be able to use the weaponkit to do such upgrades.

 

Also...rope+weapon

 

should allow second weapon on your back.

 

Solid ideas, I like the "weapon kit" as a tool to be used to attach certain optics on certain weapons. As it would require a bit of time/animation, and wouldn't be instantaneous.

 

As for the rope/weapon deal, sure, that makes sense... although it should actually come at some cost (be it weight or a lack of a melee weapon, neither of which are represented in-game [there's no weight/stamina system, and one can store a fireaxe in a backpack]).

 

I'd be interested in slings as well, to provide for a faster transition from primaries to secondaries.