Weapon accuracies

[Katana67 2907]

what's really the difference though between it being modeled accurately instead of a percentage chance of deviation being added to each bullet fired?

 

One happens before you fire, one happens after. One dictates the input required for the player to hit something, one randomly dictates whether or not the player will hit regardless of whether or not that player aimed properly.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Katana67

[irl-calibre 744]

but if both scenarios result in the same groupings what odds really?

 

the first would be really important if we were actually holding a weapon with a sight, but we're using a mouse and keyboard, loads of random sway is as annoying if not more so than random bullet spread if you ask me..

Edited May 25, 2014 by Calibre

[Katana67 2907]

but if both scenarios result in the same groupings what odds really?

 

No, one RANDOMLY dictates where a shot will hit regardless of the input from the player. The other, allows the player to influence downrange accuracy by demonstrating skill in managing things like wind, lead, sway, etc.

[Goddam Firestations 2]

Okay maybe I'm just stupid but I would have thought that the dispersion of the AKM would be more than that of an M4? Am I stupid?

[Fuddinator 18]

You are not stupid and welcome to the WTF is up with weapon accuracy club. BTW calibre, if you want to reduce weapon sway, there are different stances for this. Also resting a little after running. So basically in the prone with bipod, the sway would be very minimal and rather easy. Standing or even crouched without support, would much more difficult.

[hotcakes 348]

You can switch compensator on AKM, that is without any doubt. 

I'm just not sure, how much of a work that is.

 

Depends on how it was attached. If it was threaded, you can swap it out. The AKM in-game doesn't come with a compensator "attachment" so I don't think it's intended to be interchangeable. 

[Tiger205 48]

It's his game and he does whatever the hell he wants with it?

 

So he'll just go full retard with certain parts of the game while making others unnecessarily realistic? You realize that's beyond dumb and people have been bitching about weapons accuracy since the day alpha was released on steam and with good reason. ArmA had perfect ballistics and accuracy, rocket had ONE THING to do to make it perfect and that was weapons sway but instead he chose to break weapons because he chose so without any reasons.

[hotcakes 348]

Third. I don't count bipods because they only work when prone.

1. compensated Mosin, AKM = 0?

2. 10/22 = 0.0019

3. Magpul M4 with suppressor = 0.0019072

Holy shit, I got what you were saying about the AKM now too.

 

The gun itself has a dispersion of

0.008

but the default wooden stock has a dispersion modifier of 

-0.0440968

 

THE AKM HAS NO SPREAD.

[gibonez 3633]

So he'll just go full retard with certain parts of the game while making others unnecessarily realistic? You realize that's beyond dumb and people have been bitching about weapons accuracy since the day alpha was released on steam and with good reason. ArmA had perfect ballistics and accuracy, rocket had ONE THING to do to make it perfect and that was weapons sway but instead he chose to break weapons because he chose so without any reasons.

 

That is probably what bugs me the most about the game the sheer inconsistency of it.

 

Some parts of the game are complex and deep and are awesome because of it like the new cooking system and the inventory system.

 

Yet some parts of the game are downright arcade retarded like the dispersion and weapon attachment system and the character movement.

[execpro22 128]

Don't be silly, you know exactly what i ment. But you get beans for trying.

 

What is wrong with discovering a game as you play it rather than through spread-sheeting? Is the idea of making a mistake so intolerable?

 

 

Knowledge is power...

[execpro22 128]

Centrefire handguns = 0.03 = 103.1 MOA

Amphibian = 0.02 = 68.75 MOA

M4A1 = 0.0118064 = 40.59 MOA

Bow, crossbow = 0.01 = 34.38 MOA

Encore = 0.01 = 34.38 MOA

SKS = 0.005 = 17.19 MOA

Blaser = 0.004 = 13.75 MOA

M91/30 = 0.0025 = 8.59 MOA

M4A1 all Magpul = 0.0020072 = 6.90 MOA

Ruger 10/22 = 0.0019 = 6.53 MOA

 

 

wow so the magpull parts on a m4a1 actually  make this gun useable....

 

 

from a 40 to a 6... How ridiculous is that?

[gibonez 3633]

wow so the magpull parts on a m4a1 actually  make this gun useable....

 

 

from a 40 to a 6... How ridiculous is that?

 

Even at 6 moa the m4 is nowhere near as accurate as even the crappiest off the rack m4 out of an armory.

[hombrecz 832]

Depends on how it was attached. If it was threaded, you can swap it out. The AKM in-game doesn't come with a compensator "attachment" so I don't think it's intended to be interchangeable. 

 

I agree, but I was replying to that dude who thought it's unrealistic to have switchable compensators/muzzle brakes on AKM, thats all :).

[Pandema 352]

AKMs with no spread and M4s that must've been had their rifling removed.

 

Stay classy DayZ.

[rotteck 104]

Holy shit, I got what you were saying about the AKM now too.

 

The gun itself has a dispersion of

0.008

but the default wooden stock has a dispersion modifier of 

-0.0440968

 

THE AKM HAS NO SPREAD.

 

-0.0360968

 

wtf ? anti-spread ???

[ASMS_Leader 51]

The dispersion is fine imo.. the only reason people have issues honestly is because of games that do not have it. In real life, even in a locked testing brace you will have dispersion at range. Its just a little bit exaggerated in DayZ so it can be understandably annoying at times. 

 

For the best weapon the dispersion rate is around 6" at 100m. Now if this is a constant value and every bullet is dispersed 6" well, then that is not good. But if its on a random value that this happens and not every single bullet has a rule of being dispersed by the amount then things are fine. In my experience the dispersion is not constant. It seems more like when you do not take a steady shot that its present, and also on a random level.

 

We have no real idea until a programmer can step in to tell us how prone, crouch, standing affect this.. rapid shots, etc.. For all we know its only present if x and y and z are there. 

 

LOL u have "semper fi" above your pic so I'd have to believe you're prior USMC like myself or possibly still active....but that being said were/are you some noncombat MOS? BC no fn way should the M4 have 6" dispersion at 100m you should be able to KEYHOLE shots at 100m add a scope to that weapon and same could be said for 200m, put something with a magnification like an ACOG than same for 300m. Sorry but although AK's are beast weapons and accurate up to 300-450m an M4 can hold it's own up to 800m with someone who knows how to shoot soooooo yea no. TBH that type of detail would be beyond my beliefs of what any civilian developer would be capable of grasping.

[hiniberus 122]

-0.0360968

 

wtf ? anti-spread ???

 

Maybe it's anti-spread :D ?

[pilgrim* 3514]

This is an aside for anyone interested in math or software. How is dispersion calculated in  DayZ.

Off the top of my head there is an obvious easy way to do it.

I'd like to know IF this is how it is done (because dudes, look at what Pilgrim comes up with..) These are 'first accuracy' figures, just to demonstrate :

 

Say an unequipped M4 has a dispersion circle of diameter 1.1m at 100m
which gives a circle surface area of 0.95 square meters.
If dispersion is 'random' inside the dispersion circle, then statistically shots will land evenly dispersed anywhere inside this circle.
But how do you calculate where the shots land, in practice?

an EASY way to do it, is this:

Starting from the center point, you pick a 'random' angle, and you pick a 'random' distance anywhere between zero (the center)  and 0.55 (the edge of the circle, which has a radius of 0.55).
These two values - angle and distance from center tell you where the shot lands. Easy and quick to calculate.
BUT:
The radius is 0.55, so half the radius is a distance of 0.275.
If enough shots are spread evenly (at 'random') along the radius, then half of them will be on the inside half of the radius, and half of them on the outside half of the radius - so half will be less than 0.275 from the center, and half will land more than 0.275 from the center.

OK that sounds like even dispersion inside the dispersion circle.. (I mean even distribution, natch..)
but it IS NOT.
 
The inner circle has a surface area of 0.24
The outer circle has a surface area of 0.95-0.24 = 0.71
Half the shots statistically land in each of these two areas, but the outer area is 3 times bigger than the inner area.

So we see the dispersion is weighted so that it is much more likely that shots will land in the inner area - the inner area gets 3 times more hits per square meter than the outer area.

So using the <random angle, random distance from center> method to calculate dispersion hits, the inner circle gets half the hits, which it should not if the dispersion were actually "random" over the surface of the dispersion circle.

This means if you fire 4 times at 100 meters with an unequipped M4, on average 2 of your shots will be inside a dispersion circle of 0.55 diameter.

 

(Nice: 2 of your 4 shots have each a good 9/10 chance [or more] of hitting the target - and the other 2 also may hit the target, of course)

S0 - maybe this is not how dispersion is calculated in ArmA and DayZ ?

If not, how IS it calculated, please? This is an easy and quick way of doing it, I'd like to hear of other methods ?

Anyway, it's something to think about. In the game you are not using bullets you are using maths, whatever it looks like in the virtual world. (and please don't tell me again the maths does not correspond to what happens in real life, I already noticed the whole discussion)

In his "Visual Dispersion Comparison" Gews (with my respect for his work) has taken only one group of shots and scaled it up and down to fit inside the dispersion circle for different weapons. He assumes that dispersion is "random over the surface area". As I show above, this may not be the case at all.

Anyone know about the math of DayZ calculation of dispersion? Just for fun?

xx pilgrim

Edited May 27, 2014 by pilgrim

[bauertschi 254]

LOL u have "semper fi" above your pic so I'd have to believe you're prior USMC like myself or possibly still active....but that being said were/are you some noncombat MOS?

 

Great, lets start with laughing at the guy we disagree with followed up by making assumptions in a way that suggest one's own knowledge is supperior. That didn't even impress, when I was in my first week of basic training in our Army.

 

Then let's take a break and read something: http://www.krtraining.com/KRTraining/Archive/PracticalRangeSmallArms.pdf

 

Explaines a lot about things discussed here including the question how dispersion is to be interpreted. Important here: Iron sights are used.

The pdf also contains numbers for the AK-47 and the M16 - I put a leg out there and simply take the M16 numbers, although M4A1 dispersion is higher, an obvious reason is the shorter barrel resulting in lower muzzle velocity.

 

BC no fn way should the M4 have 6" dispersion at 100m you should be able to KEYHOLE shots at 100m add a scope to that weapon and same could be said for 200m, put something with a magnification like an ACOG than same for 300m.

 

I don't know about the keyholes you have, but I doubt it. Or is it a slang term I don't know? Feel free to link me some uncut video of someone showing that, where manipulation to troll ppl is obviously not the case.

 

More importantly, I think you did not really read the second paragraph of Irish there. Let me quote him here for you:

"...Now if this is a constant value and every bullet is dispersed 6" well, then that is not good. But if its on a random value that this happens and not every single bullet has a rule of being dispersed by the amount then things are fine...."

 

I'm not completely sure how he meant that, but it shows clearly that he disagrees with the 6'' as a general rule for "Bullets Gone Wild - the DayZ Edition". Maybe some variation for random bullets simulating ammo variations like less gun powder, projectile shape...? I don't know...

 

Sorry but although AK's are beast weapons and accurate up to 300-450m an M4 can hold it's own up to 800m with someone who knows how to shoot soooooo yea no.

 

I think you are underselling the AK and overselling the M4, but that's a normal thing when ppl compare their own things with stuff others have. A comparison is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_AK-47_and_M16 - ok, it's the M16 again, but let's just take those numbers. Most interesting for us is probably the section "Range and Accuracy".

 

Please read the text from source 144, actually here is the relevant part concerning the AK:

"...At 300 meters, expert shooters at prone or bench rest positions had difficulty putting ten consecutive rounds on target. The testers then had the weapons fired from a cradle by a machine, which removed human error. At 300 meters, the ten-rounds group fired in this manner had a minimum dispersion of 17.5 inches, compared to the 12.6 inches with an M-16..."

 

The way you write it sounds to me like "An AK is acurate to 300-450 m compared to 800m with the m4 - well, ok, the m4 being used by an expert and with ACOG, didn't say anything about an expert fireing the AK or a good scope, but hey, who cares."

 

Even with the best shooter and scope, how big is a 10 shot grouping you can get over 800m? What does "can hold it's own" mean in that context? You actually didn't say that the m4 is acurate on 800m, you just use wording that allows you to push the distance of the M4.

 

TBH that type of detail would be beyond my beliefs of what any civilian developer would be capable of grasping.

 

TBH that sentence is just bs, nothing else. I could argue that Dean Hall was in the Military, but it does not even matter.

[bauertschi 254]

...

S0 - maybe this is not how dispersion is calculated in ArmA and DayZ ?

If not, how IS it calculated, please? This is an easy and quick way of doing it, I'd like to hear of other methods ?

...

 

I would guess the same way as in my first link in post 94: http://www.krtraining.com/KRTraining/Archive/PracticalRangeSmallArms.pdf

Or close to it, there are probably other definitions with similar results. Otherwise they would probably use a different term.

[Katana67 2907]

TBH that sentence is just bs, nothing else. I could argue that Dean Hall was in the Military, but it does not even matter.

 

Yeah, I was a bit perplexed by this one as well.

 

It's not like there's a game developer MOS, 1337 "Tactical Game Developer - Special Operations Capable."

 

- Active Duty position only

- Tasked with interfacing with moronic community on Reddit and Twitter

- Must be able to make the same logical assertions over and over again in the face of ravenous imbeciles who won't listen to anything

- Must also develop a game as per C2 requirements

- Must attend mandatory four-year training course in C++ and CQC tactics brah, slay bodies, good to go?

Edited May 27, 2014 by Katana67

[gibonez 3633]

 

TBH that sentence is just bs, nothing else. I could argue that Dean Hall was in the Military, but it does not even matter.

 

Then surely he must know how shitty the weapons and gunplay is in stand alone due to the dumb accessory gameplay mechanic and the inherent dispersion of the weapons ?

[scriptfactory 620]

I don't know about the keyholes you have, but I doubt it. Or is it a slang term I don't know? Feel free to link me some uncut video of someone showing that, where manipulation to troll ppl is obviously not the case.

 

I had a very tight grouping @ 100m with iron sights. So tight that it was hard to tell how many bullets hit my targets successfully. That being said, no one is consistently "keyhole-ing" shots with iron sights at that range. I guess it was mostly hyperbole.

[scriptfactory 620]

Then surely he must know how shitty the weapons and gunplay is in stand alone due to the dumb accessory gameplay mechanic and the inherent dispersion of the weapons ?

Exactly. Which means he wants it this way. Drop the topic and move on. Realism will come with modding support. :)

[gibonez 3633]

Exactly. Which means he wants it this way. Drop the topic and move on. Realism will come with modding support. :)

 

We all know its intentional we just don't like it.

 

Such a big fuck up could not be done by mistake.