Why does the cross bow do more damage than the m4?

[Canned Muffins 82]

Actually vest can stop specific arrow head damage. I showed this earlier.

 

 

As with bullet types arrow types play a HUGE roll in the penetration.

That is with a bow how about a cross bow? How about with a compound bow? His testing seems very weak and not a good guide for anything more than the craft able bow in game. Ive watched even weak crossbows with target blunt head bolts and arrows piece Kevlar. Needless to say there is a factor of power thats missing with his test and I have a feeling its because of the bow he is using. Then again the grade of Kevlar can be very important to. We'll see how protective clothing comes into play with balistics as we see the game developed.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Canned Muffins

[gibonez 3633]

That is with a bow how about a cross bow? How about with a compound bow? His testing seems very weak and not a good guide for anything more than the craft able bow in game. Ive watched even weak crossbows with target blunt head bolts and arrows piece Kevlar. Needless to say there is a factor of power thats missing with his test and I have a feeling its because of the bow he is using. Then again the grade of Kevlar can be very important to. We'll see how protective clothing comes into play with balistics as we see the game developed.

 

Crossbows have a far higher draw weight than compound bows.

[minime1000 78]

Because the gunplay is everything but realistic in this game. Damages are weird as hell.

 

I guess they opted for arcade but balanced gameplay

Edited April 19, 2014 by myshl0ng

[Deathlove 2286]

That is with a bow how about a cross bow? How about with a compound bow? His testing seems very weak and not a good guide for anything more than the craft able bow in game. Ive watched even weak crossbows with target blunt head bolts and arrows piece Kevlar. Needless to say there is a factor of power thats missing with his test and I have a feeling its because of the bow he is using.

 

Actually yeah the guy was probably using a crappy bow compared to this guys.

 

But back on track M4A1 needs to be tuned so its more accurate and just as lethal. Most of ARMA's M4 designs are quite lethal in there normal games.

Edited April 19, 2014 by Deathlove

[chrismgtis (DayZ) 35]

You would rather be shot than stabbed?  Now to each their own, but I find that extremely confusing...

 

Apparently he enjoys pain, suffering and death and bullets being lodged in not so nice places where they are difficult to get to. With an arrow you just cut the end off and pull it out then clean up the area and sew the person back up most of the time. Yea, I'll take an arrow.

 

Weapons are absolutely FUBAR in DayZ. I put something like 10 rounds in a guy with M4 the other day and he was able to turn around and chase me with an axe. And that's why I barely play SA.

Edited April 19, 2014 by chrismgtis

[akafugitive 244]

Apparently he enjoys pain, suffering and death and bullets being lodged in not so nice places where they are difficult to get to. With an arrow you just cut the end off and pull it out then clean up the area and sew the person back up most of the time. Yea, I'll take an arrow.

Weapons are absolutely FUBAR in DayZ. I put something like 10 rounds in a guy with M4 the other day and he was able to turn around and chase me with an axe. And that's why I barely play SA.

I was stabbed in the collar bone by a pocket knife, pretty superficial injury.

I would not rather be shot by a 9mm in the same spot.

I would rather be shot by a 9mm then have a full tang katana stab me in the same spot.

I would rather be stabbed by a katana then shot by a .50 bmg in the same spot.

Each with the right circumstance has a chance the kill me, the later has the highest. There are just so many factors in ballistics, wounding and individual resilience to fully replicate or generalize.

I have killed every single person I have won a battle with in no more then 2 bursts with my M4, I target with intent to put them down and always follow with more then enough rounds to do the job. Putting a single round on target then being shocked when they have time to react and evade has always been an issue with rookie combatants, close quarters combat makes that even more dangerous for the shooter.

Edited April 19, 2014 by akafugitive

[hexrain 11]

So my two cents... all of the rifles seem pretty unrealistic. That being said, as many people have pointed out, ANY projectile can be lethal. I think damage of the M4, SKS, etc. should all cause death sooner if hitting vital areas. If you hit a vital area with a bolt the same should be true. One of my problems is many of these shots (and hits from melee) should cause unconsciousness. And actually as i think someone pointed out (not sure because i just skimmed the post) arrows will pierce body armor (just like knives) and rifle rounds wont, unless the plates are hit many times. That being said, about 6 months ago I dropped a large wooden beam on my pinky finger when i was moving it at a wood mill. I caught it inbetween the metal jackstand and the corner of the beam. It almost took off the end of my pinky. Anyway, for about 15 minutes afterwards i was struggling to remain conscious. I was extremely nauseous as well. My vision went almost black for that time period as well. Now i admit it wasnt a combat situation however anytime you have trauma some amount of adrenaline will kick in. I have a pretty high pain tolerance as well. One of the first thoughts i had after the experience was how rediculous it is in movies when someone gets shot (by anything) and keeps on going. I know there are exceptions but i think in most instances a person would go unconscious even from a non vital area being hit. Feel free to troll. i just think it should be easier to knock someone out with the projectiles or from the trauma in general. and i think arrows AND bullets should be about the same when hitting a vital spot.

[SFRGaming 718]

Imagine you have a bucket of water. Stab it with a knife. It goes slop slop slop.

 

Then throw a ball-bearing into it as hard as you can. A big fountain of water goes everywhere.

 

That's what a bullet does to the human body. Velocity + mass hitting water - and the human body is essentially a bag of water - equals big shockwave, blood everywhere, nasty. I would rather not be stabbed *or* shot, but I surmise that stab wounds leave more tissue intact and in a combat situation would take more time to stop the enemy from shooting you in the head.

 

It's been a while since I read John Keegan's The Face of Battle, but one thing that comes through is that arrow/crossbow-based combat results in a lot of wounded soldiers, who were probably going to die of infection but might survive on the battlefield for a while, whereas cannot and gunshot equals large masses of dead soldiers lying dead, because firearms are simply more lethal. The velocity kills.

The ball bearing would make a larger splash due to it's low velocity. A small projectile flying at very high speeds can easily puncture and exit a person with small effect if no vital organs are hit. Things like crossbows don't have near as much power. There's more of a chance of you having a bullet go clean through you, rather than a crossbow bolt.

[shaeg 136]

Judging by the way weapons in general work in the game my guess is BI employees have never actually used a weapon before and seem to base most their firearm knowledge off television shows and storm trooper aiming prowess

[-Gews- 7443]

The ball bearing would make a larger splash due to it's low velocity. A small projectile flying at very high speeds can easily puncture and exit a person with small effect if no vital organs are hit.

 

That's not how it works, the faster it goes, the larger the splash would be.

 

A small projectile flying at LOW speeds is more likely to punch through someone with little damage, higher speeds are more likely to cause more damage. Driving a bullet too fast can cause the bullet to "blow up" early and result in less penetration.

 

Example: the higher the speed, the more likely 5.56 M855 is to fragment (> 2700 fps). The lower the speed, the less wounding potential (< 2700 fps). A bullet from a 9mm submachine gun or pistol can out-penetrate a bullet from a 5.56 carbine.

 

Example: a .357 bullet fired from a carbine will often penetrate LESS than one fired from a revolver. The higher velocity leads to more rapid expansion, which results in less penetration. The bullets may not be designed for optimal performance from carbines... or in other cases, may not be designed to perform their best out of revolvers.

 

The only time more velocity is "bad" is if it causes the bullet to have less penetration and in humans this usually isn't a concern.

[SFRGaming 718]

That's not how it works, the faster it goes, the larger the splash would be.

 

A small projectile flying at LOW speeds is more likely to punch through someone with little damage, higher speeds are more likely to cause more damage. Driving a bullet too fast can cause the bullet to "blow up" early and result in less penetration.

 

Example: the higher the speed, the more likely 5.56 M855 is to fragment (> 2700 fps). The lower the speed, the less wounding potential (< 2700 fps). A bullet from a 9mm submachine gun or pistol can out-penetrate a bullet from a 5.56 carbine.

 

Example: a .357 bullet fired from a carbine will often penetrate LESS than one fired from a revolver. The higher velocity leads to more rapid expansion, which results in less penetration. The bullets may not be designed for optimal performance from carbines... or in other cases, may not be designed to perform their best out of revolvers.

 

The only time more velocity is "bad" is if it causes the bullet to have less penetration and in humans this usually isn't a concern.

This sounds completely wrong. Idk, if its the way I'm reading it but low-velocity is the one thing that makes guns such as pistols deadly.

[-Gews- 7443]

This sounds completely wrong. Idk, if its the way I'm reading it but low-velocity is the one thing that makes guns such as pistols deadly.

 

You seem to have it the wrong way round.

[gibonez 3633]

This sounds completely wrong. Idk, if its the way I'm reading it but low-velocity is the one thing that makes guns such as pistols deadly.

 

Sounds wrong but its completely right.

[SFRGaming 718]

I have been looking at polls and most people have voted to be shot, rather than stabbed, and for good reason.

 

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-96224.html

[pale1776 375]

You would also be surprised what my paramedic friends who worked on the First Nations reserves would say. They would find gunshot victims with bullets to the head still alive, brain literally exposed.

Or what my friends in the Canadian Forces or the British Royal Navy would have to say about it.

Sorry kid but your dad is wrong.

Which is why hes got 2 purple hearts and a silver star? Yeah, miracles happen, hes seen them. But they dont happen everyday. Seems like your friends have seen a lot of them, be it their timing or Gods will.

But not everyone is so lucky. Shock actually kills alot more people then the actual round itself.

But anyway, its a lethal projectile going as fast as some bullets. Its lethal, BUT you have to hit them in he head, heart or spine to be a one shot INSTANT death. Lung, liver ext is nearly guaranteed, but not always. Arms, legs and such, makes for a nice conversation piece but may mess you up.

[-Gews- 7443]

I have been looking at polls and most people have voted to be shot, rather than stabbed, and for good reason.

 

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-96224.html

 

 

 

 

"Over a 4-year period, 78 [stab wound] and 140 [gunshot wound] victims underwent TCY. GSW victims had greater Injury Severity Scores (39.4 +/- 23.1 for [gunshot wound] vs. 27.2 +/- 15.7 for [stab wound], p < 0.001) and mortality (69% for [gunshot wound] vs. 37% for [stab wound] p < 0.001)."

Journal of Trauma, 2004 Mar;56(3):664-8

 

"The Journal of Trauma (36:4 pp516-524) looked at all injury admissions

to a Seattle hospital over a six year period. The mortality rate for

gunshot wounds was 22% while that for stab wounds was 4%. Even among

patients that survived, gunshot wounds were more serious -- the mean

cost of treatment for these patients was more than twice that for stab

wounds."

Journal of Trauma (36:4 pp516-524)

 

"Direct admission to the mortuary was

three times as common in cases of gunshot compared with stab wounds. The

hospital mortality rate for gunshot wounds was 8 times that for stab

wounds."

Source South African Medical Journal.85(11):1172-4, 1995 Nov

 

"Gunshot wounds, stab wounds and blunt trauma occurred in

63, 66 and 23 patients respectively with mean ages of 28, 28 and 30

years. Multiple organ injury was most common after gunshot wounds.

Death occurred after 24 h in 8, 2 and 10 per cent of patients following gunshot wounds,

stab wounds and blunt trauma respectively, and was attributable to other

organ damage."

British Journal of Surgery.82(9):1236-9, 1995 Sep

 

"44 patients demonstrated gunshot

injuries, while 60 suffered from stabwounds and 1 patient had both.

Complications were observed in 29.5% of the cases. They were significantly

more frequent in patients with gunshot injuries (p < 0.0004). Overall mortality

amounted to 14.3% (n = 15). Patients with gunshot wounds had a significantly

higher mortality rate (p < 0.0005)."

Helvetica Chirurgica Acta.60(5):817-22, 1994 Jul

[pale1776 375]

A shot to the arm etc. CAN kill you yes but before you made it out to be a near guarentee. Perhaps a miscomunication through your post.

If humans were so easilly killed the earth would not have so many people on it.

Probably man :p

It is easy to kill someone, IF tou.know what your doing. The problem is its really impossible for a videogame to mimic actual injuries and death. To do that, wed need to have people actually injured with each method ingame, just to.mimic the magnitude of it and recovery time.

P.S, Im not bullshitting about my dad :p

[Daemonkid 493]

To end all this debate about what damage something should do, or how or what or why's.

 

We should really have an improved medical system first. Map proper hitboxes (heart, lungs ect) Once such things are in place, and tweaked to be realistic without being gamey, we can really discuss the amount of damage a weapon should do. Bleeding, heavy bleeding, cracked/smashed bones, artery hits ect. 

Then we can discuss the damages of weapons a bit more indepth, because right now, it's all about the damage it does to their blood levels, not their overall body.

[gibonez 3633]

To end all this debate about what damage something should do, or how or what or why's.

 

We should really have an improved medical system first. Map proper hitboxes (heart, lungs ect) Once such things are in place, and tweaked to be realistic without being gamey, we can really discuss the amount of damage a weapon should do. Bleeding, heavy bleeding, cracked/smashed bones, artery hits ect. 

Then we can discuss the damages of weapons a bit more indepth, because right now, it's all about the damage it does to their blood levels, not their overall body.

 

 

Even with the current damage model there is no daam reason for a crossbow to do more damage than a 5.56 to the chest.

 

Regardless of a complex or a dumb medical system in the game where you can heal gunshot wounds using dirty rags a 5.56 gunshot should do more damage than any crossbow or bow.

[akafugitive 244]

You guys are forgetting one of the main differences between arrows and bullets, deflection. All bullet tips are blunt(minus special rounds) arrows use piercing, weight and flex; it is the only reason why you see such a low velocity projectile being able to cause high amounts of damage that are not more but are similar to the damage caused by high velocity ballistics.

Deflection plays a role because when a ballistic projectile hits something rounded, it will deflect away from it, even if the deflection still goes through what it hit. Wound channeling goes in a pathway away from the core of the body a lot of the time, even if the varience is small.

When a sharp edged arrow hits something rounded, the side that makes first contact will cut in and cause the arrow to turn towards it as it enters what it hits, they need a significantly harder surface to deflect, and when deflected their is not much kinetic punch to be felt. Wound channeling goes towards the core of the body more consistently, meaning that a single shot does generally have a better chance of pulling itself towards more vital zones of the body.

In the video game world they have to simulate this with dice rolls(the arrow has a higher chance of rolling a heavy hit vs the bullet), it may not be totally realistic per say, but modeling each organ with functionality and hit box modifiers is just not possible without making it fizzle and crash. Some games have done this like sniper elite but it is their core element, to do it in DayZ they would have to take away from other core elements, such as survival features.

In reality you train to have follow up shots, that's why we base firearm technology on creating smaller grouping over longer and longer ranger with speed. When I deliver rounds on target I am delivering enough to cause extreme damage because one is not enough. A skilled shooter can deliver 3 rounds accurately in the speed it would take to deliver 1 arrow on the same target = much higher wound potential for the modern firearm. I can also out range them meaning if they are not able to advance into their effective range then they had no chance to begin with.

Edited April 20, 2014 by akafugitive

[Daemonkid 493]

Even with the current damage model there is no daam reason for a crossbow to do more damage than a 5.56 to the chest.

 

Indeed but, regardless. We can't have a proper discussion about weapons untill we have a proper damage system. The crossbow's stats are obviously placeholder at the moment, but a bow wouldn't really be effective unless we had an indepth damage system because guns and bows kill in different ways.

[Daemonkid 493]

In the video game world they have to simulate this with dice rolls(the arrow has a higher chance of rolling a heavy hit vs the bullet), it may not be totally realistic per say, but modeling each organ with functionality and hit box modifiers is just not possible without making it fizzle and crash. Some games have done this like sniper elite but it is their core element, to do it in DayZ they would have to take away from other core elements, such as survival features.

 

Actually, it's not hard to map a hit box. Like, at all.  It's just numbers in the backround. For instance I shoot a guy in the chest, some numbers roll it does not penetrate enough to puncture the lung, but I landed a hit in the torso hitbox, which then causes heavy bleeding. Or on the flip side, it does puncture the lung due to a number roll, the guy now has breathing problems and will probably die a very slow death unless immediate medical treatment is applied. You just need to map certain areas to have a certain effect.

[darth_vaizard 42]

I'm pretty sure one of the reasons the US military still uses the 5.56 round over anything more powerful is because they don't always need or want to kill their targets but the stopping power IS there if put in the right place.  If it were up to me, obviously I would rather have neither, a small metal projectile that has a fairly high chance to pass right through me causing a flesh wound and maybe some internal bleeding sounds a lot better of an option to a few ounces of fiberglass with a barbed metal tip that rips whatever it goes through.  That, and the crossbow wouldn't really be useful if it took more than one shot to kill...  Reload time is too long for that to be an option.

[gibonez 3633]

You guys are forgetting one of the main differences between arrows and bullets, deflection. All bullet tips are blunt(minus special rounds) arrows use piercing, weight and flex;

 

 

Hmmm bullets have been pointy aka spitzer design since the 1880s + .

 

 

Pretty much every rifle round in the game is pointy and does damage by piercing.

[akafugitive 244]

Actually, it's not hard to map a hit box. Like, at all. It's just numbers in the backround. For instance I shoot a guy in the chest, some numbers roll it does not penetrate enough to puncture the lung, but I landed a hit in the torso hitbox, which then causes heavy bleeding. Or on the flip side, it does puncture the lung due to a number roll, the guy now has breathing problems and will probably die a very slow death unless immediate medical treatment is applied. You just need to map certain areas to have a certain effect.

It is possible to add in more hit boxes then leg, arm, torso, head but I doubt they could hit box liver, lung, kidney, stomach, femoral arteries, spleen, cheek, eye, ear, nose, etc.

I would like them to add kill zone hit boxes though, heart, upper spinal, brain. The rest I'm content with a die roll system though because even the shooter can't alway predict how the target will behave when being struck by a round anywhere else.

I'm pretty sure one of the reasons the US military still uses the 5.56 round over anything more powerful is because they don't always need or want to kill their targets but the stopping power IS there if put in the right place. If it were up to me, obviously I would rather have neither, a small metal projectile that has a fairly high chance to pass right through me causing a flesh wound and maybe some internal bleeding sounds a lot better of an option to a few ounces of fiberglass with a barbed metal tip that rips whatever it goes through. That, and the crossbow wouldn't really be useful if it took more than one shot to kill... Reload time is too long for that to be an option.

Actually the 5.56 is used because of its lethality, fragmenting rounds are devastating to internal working and even if sone recovers from the injury they will have fragments of the bullet left in them, it leads to poisoning complications or the fragments being carried back to the heart by the bloodstream.

Larger rounds such as the 30-06 used by the m1 garand in WI I were designed more for tumbling through the body and causing repairable injury effectively stopping an enemy advance while they deal with the casualty.

Hmmm bullets have been pointy aka spitzer design since the 1880s + .

Pretty much every rifle round in the game is pointy and does damage by piercing.

This is the misconception that happens a lot, pointy does not mean piercing, it is aerodynamic. If you stuck your hand down on a sharpened arrow tip it would go through you hand with minimal pounds per pressure. Do the same amount of force on a bullet tip will make you feel some pain and leave an indent but no real damage.

----

What is needed is more incapacitation effects such as being knocked to the ground, not an increase to lethality. There are a lot more soldiers that have been injured in combat, we're treated and survived then killed.

Edited April 20, 2014 by akafugitive