Endless running - stamina/fatigue?

[brazorf 46]

I think this could have been discussed already, but couldn't find the right topic.

 

Nowdays we can take endless run, without having our character tired. I realize that adding stamina or fatigue status or such could be a potential gameplay-breaker, as we are forced to move and cover big distances.

 

Anyway, i feel like adding a well balanced fatigue system could add new game perspective, like planning your trips to avoid night, stock food and water before moving for a long trip, etc. I think it could be something like, for example, 10 mins of running capabilities buffer. Once depleted you can only walk, or run crouched. It should regenerate with balanced ratio (no idea about balance atm), something like 1min each 10 mins. So it would take 100 mins to have your full stamina back. This should be strongly related to in-game distances, and how quick we want those distances covered.

 

What is your point of view about this?

 

 

[Electi 149]

 

to avoid night,

Does anyone play so long?

 

stock food and water before moving for a long trip, etc.

Always fill your char on max, and have rice in pockets

 

 

 

10 mins of running capabilities buffer. Once depleted you can only walk, or run crouched. 

 

 

What kind of dystrophyc will be your character?

 

I think it's actually stupid to make your char so weak, that's he can not run for a few hours.

First of all it is depends on your willpower, because if you understand you need to move, or you will die. You will run, till you fall unconscious.

 

Do not underestimate the power of human body.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Electi

[brazorf 46]

As i said ive no idea of a good balanced system. Only asking about a concept here

[Thirdthorpe 87]

I'm torn on this one. I do want realism but at the same time running through the miles of endless area can be a tad mind-numbing at times. I say put a one or two minute limit on sprinting but leave jogging as it is.

[SGT. Kalme 106]

Running for half an hour in combat gear is doable, running for hour in light gear is doable. Running hour with having two rifles, backpack full of stuff, molle-vest full of stuff and all your clothes filled with stuff is quite difficult. Obviously it depends how fast you run but right now it is unbalanced for sure.

 

The fatigue should depend on how heavy is your gear, on which ground you move and weather (if it is cold or hot), how hydrated and energized you are. Overall, it should be doable but difficult, at least.

 

if someone can relate them to each other and calculate estimated average fatigue with certain values for those requirements then it would be possible. But in my point of view, it would be really hard to put in numbers how temperature and hydration for example affect your fatigue.

 

To keep it simple, the system could just measure your weight and ground difficulty and depend on that though. I think the current system where at some degree of ground raising, you stop running and start walking is rather odd, taken into account how little this degree actually is. It would be more realistic if there would be more different speeds for running.

[entspeak 374]

They likely won't add fatigue in that way.  What they can do (and may be planning to do at some point) is have energy burn-off rate be dependent on movement speed.  If you run, you're going to be hungrier and thirstier sooner and you will burn off energy faster... worse so if you sprint.  At the moment, there's really no difference between walking, running and sprinting in terms of food/water/energy burn.  I hope they eventually add equipment weight to that, as well.

 

Of course, the nutrition system appears to have been re-vamped again in the latest build... at least the starting values as a new spawn... so, who knows?

Edited March 23, 2014 by entspeak

[taco86 156]

Running for half an hour in combat gear is doable, running for hour in light gear is doable.

Running at 20+ mph for half an hour in combat gear is not doable, running at 20+ mph for an hour+ in "light gear" is also not doable...  The fastest marathon runners in the world (super freaks) average about 12 mph...

Edited March 23, 2014 by taco86

[SGT. Kalme 106]

Running at 20+ mph for half an hour in combat gear is not doable, running at 20+ mph for an hour+ is also not doable...

 

 

I patiently wait for time when people will read further from first sentence.

 

:)

[Thirdthorpe 87]

Running at 20+ mph for half an hour in combat gear is not doable, running at 20+ mph for an hour+ in "light gear" is also not doable...  The fastest marathon runners in the world (super freaks) average about 12 mph...

Lol, when did homeboy say anything about running at 20 mph?

[taco86 156]

Lol, when did homeboy say anything about running at 20 mph?

Never said anything about him saying 20mph.  My 20mph comments are in reference to fist raised endless sprinting atm...

 

The point I'm trying to make is that the foundation of movement speed within the current game is simply flawed, and people are sprinting at speeds which make no sense beyond a 100m sprint performed by a high level athlete.  I think we need to define what are justifiable "base speeds" of a naked character, and then work our way forward from there.  The general system (weight and terrain difficulty determine speed) kalme describes is certainly a good solution, however the starting point of these speed calculations need to be brought into reality.  While kalme in no ways defends the current run speed/duration, I quoted that particular portion of his post to highlight "running", which in the game atm is fist running at 20ish mph forever.  The post was in no way meant to negatively target an individuals intentions/opinions.  I'm sorry that it came off, or was taken that way.

Edited March 23, 2014 by taco86

[TX_ 22]

The general system (weight and terrain difficulty determine speed) kalme describes is certainly a good solution, however the starting point of these speed calculations need to be brought into reality.

I think the fundamental question here is about realism. Nobody would enjoy a game where you need to take a tedious (realistically slow) hike just to get from one town to the next. At the same time it would be silly to have super-charged characters who can run fast and endlessly with full combat gear, food, supplies etc. Also, if traveling distances on the map would be too short or too long, it would hurt the immersion and make the world appear either too busy or too empty, even if the character movement speeds were perfectly optimized and realistic.

So to start off, I think that the current distances between towns and other points of interest on the map are pretty much spot on. You can find crowded areas with lots of action and little space to hide from it (Elektro for instance) and places with lots of space around them (almost everything 1 km north of the coast, really). The map gives a nice sense of being in a large area with a natural variety of cities, towns, plains, woodlands etc. in it. So IMO we can just focus on the character speed / fatigue mechanics.

I do agree that some type of fatigue system needs to be there, and that it should influence your energy and especially hydration levels. I think it will always work best if the player has quite a lot more stamina and strength than any real person under the same circumstances, carrying the same gear etc. Otherwise it would be tedious and annoying to play the game, since there is quite a lot of traveling required to play it right (i. e. you shouldn't be able to get everything you need from a 500 m radius).

The current system is not bad for long distance traveling. People don't seem to get bored to make runs for loot, travel to different cities / airfields for action etc. What I think is missing tho is something like a 10-60 sec timer for very fast sprinting, with the stuff you are carrying having an impact on the max time for sprinting. You could pull off 60 seconds with no gear, but only 10-20 sec with full gear. And I'm talking about Usain Bolt type of sprinting here, the absolute max you can get from your body for a short period of time. For jogging a similar timer could be implemented, however it should be a lot more forgiving in order to not make long distance travel too tedious. Maybe something like 3-10 minutes depending on gear, after which you'd take a ~30 sec break, drink some water and so on.

What I'd most like about a system like this is that it would force people to think twice about the stuff they carry around. It would also give a small boost to bambis, making the initial looting a bit easier and more fun (you have nothing on you but at least you can run like crazy)! Maybe zombie movement speeds could be synced so that bambis can outrun them while geared players need to take them down, but that's for another thread.

So in short, I'd say introduce timers for sprinting and jogging and have gear amount / weight influence those timers.

[SGT. Kalme 106]

I think the fundamental question here is about realism. Nobody would enjoy a game where you need to take a tedious (realistically slow) hike just to get from one town to the next.

 

I would. :)

 

In all seriousness though, to keep simple as they can be - that would be the solution, likely.

 

Make a timer, the complete maximum that you can run being basically naked. Say running 10km in 33minutes, that would be 1km for 3.5 minutes. Then make values of how much the hydration/energy levels impact it. Say 100% is 0 seconds penalty, 90% would have say 10 seconds penalty. Then make similar values for weight and say, when climate changes are introduced, even for temperatures (like if the temp. is 35 'C, your 1km time will suffer like by a minute while being at like 20 'C, it would have no penalty and 5 'C and blow gives penalty already). Put them all in table, let the system measure different aspects of player situation and calculate the time of running at max speed, medium speed, jogging and walking  considering all the penalties (though on map that small, the walking penalties should only be when you are basically dying of thirst or hunger). Important things that you mentioned is that zombies would follow similar speeds that character uses but with a note that zombie with a broken leg couldn't run 1km in 3.5minutes obviously.

 

Then set timers to how long a character can run at those speeds. This would be just the system from top off my head, in reality, all the numbers and affections should be measured a little bit more precisely.

 

Also, what I have thought before, player injuries (even when so said "fixed") should affect the movement. But again, that is another story.

 

:)

Edited March 23, 2014 by SGT. Kalme

[NwJoolz 10]

Let's reduce stamina when the vehicles are back in, yes?

[SGT. Kalme 106]

Let's reduce stamina when the vehicles are back in, yes?

 

Why do people only think about how it would be easier to play a game?

 

I, honestly, don't share the love for vehicles. I find it much more pleasant to walk through the beautiful countryside, see all the stuff myself and make this whole another adventure. It is so short-sighted to think vehicles will be Gods gift. You are more likely survive on foot than on bicycle. Cars are still far away, shouldn't even think about that yet.

[NwJoolz 10]

Why do people only think about how it would be easier to play a game?

 

I, honestly, don't share the love for vehicles. I find it much more pleasant to walk through the beautiful countryside, see all the stuff myself and make this whole another adventure. It is so short-sighted to think vehicles will be Gods gift. You are more likely survive on foot than on bicycle. Cars are still far away, shouldn't even think about that yet.

 

My "love for vehicles" has nothing to do with an "easy mode" for this title - you are far too presumptious. I simply remember fondly the hundreds if not thousands of hours that I and my friends put into the mod. We often found that having a vehicle convoy introduced the tyranny of worrying about fuel stops, jerry cans and ambushes and yes, it would probably have been easier to survive by hiding out in the woods on foot. This is, however beside the point.

 

I shall now flesh out my response a little.

 

When vehicles are re-introduced I would like sprint distance reduced to 100M/200M (we are not supposed to be trained military personnel/fitness fanatics) with a massively increased aim-shake until the out-of-breath condition has eased.

 

I would also like to see jogging slowed to a more reasonable speed and, depending on distance travelled (circa 2KM/3KM) the complete inability to do anything other than collapse in an exhausted heap.

 

I want to see walking become the norm as it is in real life, with a speed set at 4.5KMH to 5.5KMH depending on what's underfoot (easily done in the Arma engine).

 

I also want to see speed modifiers based on clothing condition (try running in wet shoes/jeans).

 

Until vehicles are re-introduced the current marathon runner survivor is the obvious solution.

[SGT. Kalme 106]

My "love for vehicles" has nothing to do with an "easy mode" for this title - you are far too presumptious. I simply remember fondly the hundreds if not thousands of hours that I and my friends put into the mod. We often found that having a vehicle convoy introduced the tyranny of worrying about fuel stops, jerry cans and ambushes and yes, it would probably have been easier to survive by hiding out in the woods on foot. This is, however beside the point.

 

I shall now flesh out my response a little.

 

When vehicles are re-introduced I would like sprint distance reduced to 100M/200M (we are not supposed to be trained military personnel/fitness fanatics) with a massively increased aim-shake until the out-of-breath condition has eased.

I would also like to see jogging slowed to a more reasonable speed and, depending on distance travelled (circa 2KM/3KM) the complete inability to do anything other than collapse in an exhausted heap.

I want to see walking become the norm as it is in real life, with a speed set at 4.5KMH to 5.5KMH depending on what's underfoot (easily done in the Arma engine).

I also want to see speed modifiers based on clothing condition (try running in wet shoes/jeans).

Until vehicles are re-introduced the current marathon runner survivor is the obvious solution.

 

Understandable. I remember my days back in the mod when we had those convoys consisting armored humvees, armored SUVs and other un-armored cars with .50cals on top of them and Venom and BH flying overhead. Didn't really have to worry about anything. Only times when we lost a vehicle or two was when hackers attacked. But that is that. I did not mean to jump in your face yelling "you are a lazy slob". It is understandable most of people would like to sprint around all day long but there are many of us who would sacrifice more time to reach some place just for it to be realistic.

 

God, I would be happy if this game was so realistic that I'd shit my pants every time when logged in. But that is me and my opinion.

[aknar 13]

Hey, i've been thinking about it on the heartbeat thread

 

The idea would be to have a sprint time (and also speed, but to a lesser extent to avoid breaking the game (especially with the faster zombies now) that would depend on the weight you are carring (since weight isn't (yet?) considered, simply, the amount of stuff you have.

 

Your speed would start off full sprint but quickly decrease into a jog that would last much longer but that would eventually drop as well into a stance where your player is dragging his feet (even though it would be a tiny bit faster than walking

 

Finally, adrenalin would be a big factor. hearing shots, fighting, getting wounded, seeing player die. Even hearing sounds while hiding or going through a town, would give you adrenalin that would allow you to full sprint again, even while exhausted. Once the sprint is over, you would go straight to dragging your feet without jogging.

 

Jogging, being what you need to be able to run for long extents of time, you would need to rest.

Edited March 23, 2014 by aknar

[brazorf 46]

I would like to add in some element, mostly those who make this matter a dangerous gameplay breaker as i said before.

 

The point i'm trying to make here is that i would like to see people walk under normal conditions - run from danger.

Running and sprinting should be considered as a resource in the future, to be carefully administrated.

As i can shoot walls and waste ammo, eventually to be unarmed when needed, running is the same: i can sprint

everywhere, to later regret when i'm out of stamina and something really bad is chasing me.

 

I think and hope that long term goal with this game will change when we reach beta. 

In a survival scenario, i would travel around until i find a safe place to stay: then, i would focus on keeping it safe. I would move

to fast raid to increase my stock, improve my defenses (barricades, traps, etc.). Why should i consider a good approach

perpetually moving from town to town?

 

This is probably one of the many reasons why Rocket talked about a "flawed game", but im still interested in understanding what 

you guys think about. I am very close to Kalme position - but i fear we are a small minority 

[irichey25 17]

There shouldn't be a stamina system in the game until they add some type of transportation. The idea of being forced to walk for such a long period of time, when half of the game is already lots of running is a terrible idea. 

[wisper 61]

Most points are valid here (weight/fatigue, energy consumption/form of traveling). Perhaps all this should be implemented though after vehicules get introduced, (same goes for weather related sicknesses and their effects to running).

[xCAPx 349]

The Devs should link the sprint mechanic to the weight of your character and yes, maybe to the healthy status of the char. If you are fully geared up, you should be able to run endless but a little bit slower than a freshspawn f.ex.

[gibonez 3633]

I have noticed that we have never discussed a stamina system in these forums even though it would potentially improve the game tenfold.

 

 

A stamina system would fix many of the problems currently facing dayz at the moment and could potentially allow balancing of heavy weapons in the game.

 

Currently a lot of the heavier weapons such as anti material rifles and LMGs or HMGs are faced with harsh criticism and justifiably so due to how they were implemented in the mod.

Unlike real life carrying these heavy big weapons in the mod had 0 drawbacks, no having to hump around 30 pounds of extra gear and ammo, no having to rest after sprinting 10 miles.

 

A stamina system and a weight system would allow these weapons to be incorporated into the game and at the same time be extremely balanced compared to other weapons due to their inherent drawbacks.

 

The other big thing that would be fixed with a weight and stamina system is the unrealistic sprint speeds of 14 mph and the unlimited sprint given to players. Even though the players are possibly just normal people they have the endurance of the very best triathletes in the world.

 

 

So how would you or would you not incorporate a stamina/weight system and or what would you add to fix the issues of unlimited stamina.

 

 

[triage 117]

Agreed. 

[Katana67 2907]

Was discussed before, but a long while ago. And we did have a very rudimentary stamina system in the mod IIRC.

 

The weight carried by your character should not be limited to an arbitrary amount. However, there should become a point at which it becomes prohibitive/unsustainable to carry a lot of gear.

 

If some jerk wants to mule around with a full pack and two AS50s on his back, more power to him. But he shouldn't be able to run for more than ten seconds (example/exaggeration), he should require a feast just to keep himself moving (example/exaggeration), and should be slowed down overall. He should be spending so much time feeding himself, that he cannot be bothered with such menial detriments as PvP or killing zombies without being overrun.

 

I think encumbrance system is a better term than "stamina" system, as stamina only implies a detriment to the rate of travel. Not encumbrance in every aspect of play.

 

And, also, there needs to be a tangible benefit to those who willingly sacrifice capability. Meaning folks who run a SBR/SMG in CQC should have an advantage in movement over somebody running a Mosin. Or someone who ONLY chooses one weapon, vice two and a melee weapon, should have some sort of movement advantage.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Katana67

[kichilron 8550]

Merging

Edited April 17, 2014 by kichilron