Dayz Anti-Game philosophy, is this still relevant and true?

[ProGamerGov 74]

"All to often these days games are designed to control player interactions as much as possible, dictate how the should players interact and prevent negative interactions. This has basically caused a rise in games becoming more "Care Bear" like or soft. Games are basically trying to give the player the friendliest environment possible and declaring war on "griefing", which can essentially be defined as any negative player interaction. One would think that games are like because that's what people enjoy playing games like this. So why would a game like Dayz which let's you do whatever you want to other players be so popular? Well, simply put it this way. Humans are not naturally nice to each other and Dayz goes the opposite way of the majority of games with its player interactions. The market has become really homogenized lately with games trying to as balanced, user friendly, appeal to everyone, be more generic, and try to control player interactions to be as positive as possible with both players enjoying these interactions. Dayz has basically shown that being realistic, not copying everyone else, being brutal to new players, and having no rules on what players can do to each other can actually be viable in today's gaming industry. This beings some much need uniqueness to a vast gaming landscape mostly populated with unrealistic, balanced, casual and player interaction restricted games that have become the norm."

And has Dayz dissolved into complaints for nerfs and buffs? Or is it still about being realistic?

Edited March 15, 2014 by ProGamerGov

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there
 

IMHO you are confusing or at least mixing up two completely different aspects.

 

Im all for less "consolian" "hand holding" games but i am definitely against "griefing".

 

Having a game that's difficult and away from the norm does not equate to one that deliberately goes out of its way to spite you or indeed encourages its playerbase to be an idiot.

 

DAYZ style games were much more the norm "back in the day". Unfortunately idiots are still just as prevalent.

 

I am probably what most folk would label as a "carebear" but does that mean I wont take part in PvP (or that I dont enjoy it?) Absolutely not. I do tend to prefer SP or PvE due to the times and situation in which I personally play. If I were "free-er" Id love to get into more hardcore PvP.

 

The difference is that im not a dick when I play. Thats what a griefer is. Its someone who causes grief to another player. Now, if its within the "established" rules of the game (written or not) then its not griefing IMHO.

 

For eg Newspawn sniping is griefing. as there's very little the newspawn can do to combat it. There's no written rule saying you cant do it. but if you do, you most likely are being a dick and therefore are griefing as you are deliberately ruining someone else's game play in a lazy non constructive way.

 

Now, in other games like BF3 for example I didnt mind people base camping me as I spawn quickly and fully kitted out and have often had a great time battling my way back out to defeat the enemy although I wouldnt do it to someone myself.

 

I want this game to be challenging and to not lead my by the hand but i do not want it to encourage "dick" play. I may well encounter them, I have no issue with that but I dont want it encouraged, I want something neutral I can pour my self into that give me more options than headhunting or farming daises.

 

Excuse my disjointed rambling, im trying to cook as i type this.

 

Essentially Carebear/Griefer and a perma death FPS roguelike are not the same thing.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[odin_lowe 3686]

:huh:

 

After reading this, all I can say is that's only the opinion of the one who wrote this.

 

 

This has basically caused a rise in games becoming more "Care Bear" like or soft.

 

Humans are not naturally nice to each other and Dayz goes the opposite way of the majority of games with its player interactions.

And has Dayz dissolved into complaints for nerfs and buffs? Or is it still about being realistic?

 

I've been playing video games since 1984. Games are not becoming "care bear" like. This term comes from young players who seemed to have been brainwashed by either the social media or TV into thinking being good is bad. Fundamentally, being good is the right way to go to live in harmony with nature, and others who surround us. Respect is of the utmost importance. Not because of religion, or science, or morale, but because it's fundamental.

 

With the indie gaming scene becoming the huge market it is today, the choice of games with different styles have risen and everyone can find it's cup of tea. The main idea is to always remember video games are a means of entertainment. For the ones who create them, it's either a way to be creative and express themselves or just another means of making money.

 

Humans are naturally kind with each other. A selected few powerful individuals started the Wars we faced throughout history. People get brainwashed into thinking their neighbors are enemies, but it's wrong. It only benefits those who control society to have us separated instead of united, It's easier for them to control us.

 

Respect is lacking. Hate is on the rise. Bad behaviors and thoughts are being more and more accepted instead of being worked on to better ourselves and helping each other. Parents have a great deal of responsibility in this and it's becoming much harder to find happiness in America, with so many gratifying hatred and suffering.

 

Dark days we live in.

 

Edit: Add all that Lok said too. I couldn't agree more.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Odin Lowe

[tiadashi 262]

I agree with Odin - its the concept of "me", "my family", and so on - that's creating a sense of entitlement and frankly cruelty to others because they aren't a part of your family, group, nation, whatever - as corny as this may sound everyone should be your child, brother, and so on, - a species that cant get over backstabbing, dies off, period.

Edited March 15, 2014 by tiadashi

[UNDERWORLD 76]

It's when DayZ infringes on your life you're running into problems. My bus route to work goes past a fire station, I see the tower and looting comes to mind.

[pacific_coast 632]

way too early for this convo, op

 

in 2016 we can discuss the finished product and how it's played.

[irl-calibre 744]

Hello there

 

IMHO you are confusing or at least mixing up two completely different aspects.

 

Im all for less "consolian" "hand holding" games but i am definitely against "griefing".

 

Having a game that's difficult and away from the norm does not equate to one that deliberately goes out of its way to spite you or indeed encourages its playerbase to be an idiot.

 

DAYZ style games were much more the norm "back in the day". Unfortunately idiots are still just as prevalent.

 

I am probably what most folk would label as a "carebear" but does that mean I wont take part in PvP (or that I dont enjoy it?) Absolutely not. I do tend to prefer SP or PvE due to the times and situation in which I personally play. If I were "free-er" Id love to get into more hardcore PvP.

 

The difference is that im not a dick when I play. Thats what a griefer is. Its someone who causes grief to another player. Now, if its within the "established" rules of the game (written or not) then its not griefing IMHO.

 

For eg Newspawn sniping is griefing. as there's very little the newspawn can do to combat it. There's no written rule saying you cant do it. but if you do, you most likely are being a dick and therefore are griefing as you are deliberately ruining someone else's game play in a lazy non constructive way.

 

Now, in other games like BF3 for example I didnt mind people base camping me as I spawn quickly and fully kitted out and have often had a great time battling my way back out to defeat the enemy although I wouldnt do it to someone myself.

 

I want this game to be challenging and to not lead my by the hand but i do not want it to encourage "dick" play. I may well encounter them, I have no issue with that but I dont want it encouraged, I want something neutral I can pour my self into that give me more options than headhunting or farming daises.

 

Excuse my disjointed rambling, im trying to cook as i type this.

 

Essentially Carebear/Griefer and a perma death FPS roguelike are not the same thing.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

eh? you can't get base raped in BF3, why? because of all the fucking crying in BF2 over it and developers listening to those that flood their forums with their tears. bad example to make imo.

[Franchi (DayZ) 146]

I agree with Odin - its the concept of "me", "my family", and so on - that's creating a sense of entitlement and frankly cruelty to others because they aren't a part of your family, group, nation, whatever - as corny as this may sound everyone should be your child, brother, and so on, - a species that cant get over backstabbing, dies off, period.

No, the backstabbing insures that those who have the best genes for backstabbing and avoiding said backstabbing pass those genes along.

 

Natural selection at its finest.

Edited March 15, 2014 by Franchi

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

[djporternz 644]

orlok said everything I wanted to, so I'll leave it at that.

 

No, the backstabbing insures that those who have the best genes for backstabbing and avoiding said backstabbing pass those genes along.

 

Natural selection at its finest.

And the last man... the finest of the finest... who does he stab in the back?

Edited March 15, 2014 by DJPorterNZ

[Window Licker 504]

Some very insightful post's here, to the point I feel I can't add too much without pulling from my 3 episodes of Dr Phil Psych degree.

 

I feel that the disconnect is more on the players side, "it's not me so why should I care?" in the event of a full blown zombie apocalypse there I feel that this attitude would change slightly but not do a complete 180.  As this game develops and things become harder (I hope they do) the play styles will begin to change I feel a portion of the players will be in the guns are too hard to find category and pretty much stop playing, where those who enjoy the survival aspects will thrive in those times.  KoS and Banditry will always be an aspect of the game and tbh I think any bandit who is dedicated to finding the weapons needed and possessing the skill and stones to face to face rob another player is doing pretty well.  The KoS crowd will become deadly as dying for them takes a much higher toll, finding a LRS right now is hard and with the mosin nerf in experimental it's more of a can you hit consistently then "one shot lol I got him".

 

Between now and release I can see several of the design decision's sparking outrage in the forums as several already have and I hope they stick to their gun's and let those players who don't want this experience to leave.  In saying that I'm sure a good portion of them will return when they open things up to modders.  I can see vanilla DayZ drop to rather low levels, limited to players who enjoy the survival zombie apocalypse at which point griefers will be fairly much gone as the mod's will let them spawn with guns and they don't have to spend 3-4 hours running all over the place to find their weapon of choice.

 

The DayZ dev team should absolutely stick to their guns and bring to life Dean's vision, while painful for those of us who regularly visit the forums it will ultimately be worth it.  The mod's will enable a different crowd of players to enjoy DayZ thus at the end of it all, everyone get's cake, just some of us shed a few more tears along the way.

[Franchi (DayZ) 146]

orlok said everything I wanted to, so I'll leave it at that.

 

And the last man... the finest of the finest... who does he stab in the back?

Given the size of the world there would never be a last man, plenty of room for plenty of families or "tribes" to live without necessitating they back stab each other to death.

[elLoCo 154]

It's when DayZ infringes on your life you're running into problems. My bus route to work goes past a fire station, I see the tower and looting comes to mind.

The day will come, my friend ... and you will hopefully remember the firestations (of Chernarus).

[elLoCo 154]

Given the size of the world there would never be a last man, plenty of room for plenty of families or "tribes" to live without necessitating they back stab each other to death.

 

 

Until there is nothing to explore like playermade stuff or reshapes of the map, because of disasters. It will keep being a grind the good gear, rambilng north/west and when you are done you rape (wo)men or try to stop it, depending on your style of play.

 

I hope that occupying territory e.g. shops, houses like in Project Zomnoid becomes part of the game. The sooner the better in my humble oppinion.

 

And you are indeed right that there is enough space for more than a handful communities on this huge peninsula!

So let's hope it will happen!

Edited March 15, 2014 by elLoCo

[execpro22 128]

 

For eg Newspawn sniping is griefing. as there's very little the newspawn can do to combat it. There's no written rule saying you cant do it. but if you do, you most likely are being a dick and therefore are griefing as you are deliberately ruining someone else's game play in a lazy non constructive way.

 

 

 

I would argue that "griefing" actually makes the game more interesting...

 

You say it seems wrong to snipe new spawns as they haev NO way of protecting themselves... So are you saying that new spawns should have some type of invulnerability just because they are new?

 

Imagine how boring it would be to be a new spawn knowing no one will kill you till you get a weapon...

 

I think "griefers"serve a very important purpose in DAYZ. I also feel that fresh spawns can be just as dangerous as a fully kitted player...

[bfisher 561]

People keep using the term "balanced" disparagingly.  I do not think this term means what they think it means.

 

"Balanced" is a good thing because it doesn't force players to adopt a single play style.  For example, if everyone had an AS50 .50 cal anti material rifle like the mod, the entire game would consist of walking around until you got your head blown off by some dot 1000m away.  Balance would provide realistic disadvantages to carrying a 40 lb weapon or make them suitably rare.

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

I dont think its "wrong" to snipe new spawns, i think it tends to make one "a bit of a dick" as on the whole its lazy and brings nothing of worth to the game. There are ways of encountering new spawns that can spice up everyone's play, but its a general wave towards what griefing is.

 

Artificial spawn protection is not what im advocating. Please dont make out im suggesting things where im not.

 

Again, being a bandit does not equate to KoS (in the derogatory term) or griefing. Being a bandit is fine and brings alot to the game. Griefing does not.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[execpro22 128]

Hello there

 

I dont think its "wrong" to snipe new spawns, i think it tends to make one "a bit of a dick" as on the whole its lazy and brings nothing of worth to the game. There are ways of encountering new spawns that can spice up everyone's play, but its a general wave towards what griefing is.

 

Artificial spawn protection is not what im advocating. Please dont make out im suggesting things where im not.

 

Again, being a bandit does not equate to KoS (in the derogatory term) or griefing. Being a bandit is fine and brings alot to the game. Griefing does not.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

 

 

I've seen too many videos of some niave fully kitted hero who let a new spawn get to close and paid the price for it with his life...

 

Now I cant speak for every KOS person in this game, but for me I shoot new spawns not because I enjoy "griefing"  them but becuase I feel they are threat as they can go grab a gun and come find me or try to KO me while my back is turned..

 

My goal is to survive so I take out any potential threat along the way be they new spawn or fully kitted player...

 

 

Like I said I'm also providing a function in the game by making being a newspawn not the care free experience that it could be if I followed your playstyle.

 

People like me have a purpose in this game...

[amiasfree 262]

I've seen too many videos of some niave fully kitted hero who let a new spawn get to close and paid the price for it with his life...

 

Now I cant speak for every KOS person in this game, but for me I shoot new spawns not because I enjoy "griefing"  them but becuase I feel they are threat as they can go grab a gun and come find me or try to KO me while my back is turned..

 

My goal is to survive so I take out any potential threat along the way be they new spawn or fully kitted player...

 

??? That isn't even a reason. So what, they respawn, possibly even closer to a free gun than before and with a *reason* to come back and fight you. If  you were really killing them because you think they were somekind of a future threat, you'd be shooting them in the leg and letting them starve, hoping that they'll quit the game or switch servers.

 

Yeah, I call bs on that. You just like shooting defenseless players. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it's laughable you're just downright lying on a forum about your reasons.

Edited March 17, 2014 by Amias Free

[Window Licker 504]

Just to clarify you shoot new spawns who get too close/don't listen or you gun down everyone? do you go to new spawn locations or are these hapless souls just unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

[OrLoK 16185]

I've seen too many videos of some niave fully kitted hero who let a new spawn get to close and paid the price for it with his life...

 

Now I cant speak for every KOS person in this game, but for me I shoot new spawns not because I enjoy "griefing"  them but becuase I feel they are threat as they can go grab a gun and come find me or try to KO me while my back is turned..

 

My goal is to survive so I take out any potential threat along the way be they new spawn or fully kitted player...

 

 

Like I said I'm also providing a function in the game by making being a newspawn not the care free experience that it could be if I followed your playstyle.

 

People like me have a purpose in this game...

Hello there

 

Killing newspawns doesnt really help you survive, especially if they're on the coast, there's no real deterrent. If you do it to make them switch servers then you are griefing.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

Edited March 17, 2014 by orlok

[muddyraccoon 176]

As long as real death is not a threat, and killing has no consequence, there will be griefers.  In real life there will be assholes all over the place (In America, Rednecks.  In EU, the french?  I'm not sure), but the majority of people will want to form a community as quickly as possible.  Then the zombies, in real life, would be picked apart by crows, Vultures, plain ol' decay.  It will be over in a few months then we can go back home.  (That is real zombies.  Not infected humans.  I mean walking dead but not The Walking Dead)

 

All the same, Bandits will exist, but they would be desperate and scared, not dickheads that have to cuff you to ask you questions.  Psychos will also exist, but they won't be the dicks with tiny dicks that kill unarmed and try to justify it by using the "potential threat" argument (you are that bad that a new spawn is a threat?  Letting your guard down once is one thing, but to fear a new spawn?  Maybe this game needs a tutorial for you).

[execpro22 128]

??? That isn't even a reason.

 

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't realize I needed to have my reasoning validated before I pull the trigger thanks for letting me know....

 

 

 

 

 

what, they respawn, possibly even closer to a free gun than before and with a *reason* to come back and fight you. If  you were really killing them because you think they were somekind of a future threat, you'd be shooting them in the leg and letting them starve, hoping that they'll quit the game or switch servers.

 

 

Oh yeah, shooting a new spawn in the legs, causing them to starve and quit the server is DEFINATELY not griefing them right?

 

Please tell me your joking...

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, I call bs on that. You just like shooting defenseless players. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it's laughable you're just downright lying on a forum about your reasons.

 

 

It's Laughable that we have soooo many pseudo psychologists in this forum more than willing to tell you what your thinking and why your doing it even after you explain it to them...

 

Listen freud, I gave my reasoning for shooting new spawns. You dont have to like it, but stop trying to fit me into your cliche stereotyping of Bandits just cause its easier for you to think of me like that then realize maybe I'm more than just a griefer.....

[execpro22 128]

Just to clarify you shoot new spawns who get too close/don't listen or you gun down everyone? do you go to new spawn locations or are these hapless souls just unlucky enough to be in the wrong place at the wrong time?

 

 

Just the unlucky ones who get too close and no I dont actively go looking for them. I do however go to the coast looking for a good fights sometimes as that is where alot of fully kitted players congregate...

[execpro22 128]

Hello there

 

Killing newspawns doesnt really help you survive, especially if they're on the coast, there's no real deterrent. If you do it to make them switch servers then you are griefing.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

 

Nope.

 

I already explained how easy it is for a new spawn to get the upperhand on a fully kitted player... I dont give them that chance.. Why is it so hard for anyone to get that I am doing it for survival...

 

Anytime I kill someone in my sight i increase my chance of survival...

 

Is it really that hard to believe that some people kill for other reasons besides greifing?