[Discussion] What is needed to make hardcore, properly hardcore?

[wild_man 4442]

i love ideas and more hardcore = more awesome for me  :beans:

 

some more idea to make better

 

weight of gear affect speed and stamina of character also health having affect  ;)

 

wind random so clouds moving dont help for navigate but maybe put wind indicator on church roofs or at airfield  :)

[darthbane67 92]

The holy grail for me would be seasons, whether people would be willing to play a server for several months waiting for the spring/summer I'm not sure.

 

For me I think how they might do seasons is areas that are either winter or not. They have so much map to work with they can do it kinda like making zones. If they do a season cycle it might be short not taking months hehe but it would be cool to have real seasons. They could also add like winter servers spring servers and so on.

[rickyriot 1009]

Was not talking to you at all with that post hence me quoting the guy I was responding to.

Er.. you quoted me. I'm guessing you just got the quotes wrong, easily done.

Also they will not be dialing back on those things they will be dialing up or honing it.

All we can do is wait and see. I have a sneaking suspicion that the default vanilla will be lacking a little in terms of being a difficult game to play, and that's totally understandable you don't want to make a game so awkward that it deters people from playing it. I think that's what hardcore servers offers though, a chance to really work at the difficulty (and realism) level.

[Sonic-NKT 38]

I guess true seasons will be a hard part because a lot lot lot of textures would have to be replaced (snow on houses, trees, ground for example)...

tho i like the idea of chaning weather/temperature, even without true seasons. Have times when its cold maybe even below zero and you really need to wear a big jacket and add hot temperatures as well and you will be forced to drop those big jackets again for something thinner.

[rickyriot 1009]

weight of gear affect speed and stamina of character also health having affect  ;)

 

wind random so clouds moving dont help for navigate but maybe put wind indicator on church roofs or at airfield  :)

Both good additions. In fairness I do think that those things could be added to the game in general and not just limited to hardcore.

Is it wrong that I am annoyed the weather works in an East to West direction, when in real life it's the other way due to the direction of the rotation of the Earth.

 

 

For me I think how they might do seasons is areas that are either winter or not. They have so much map to work with they can do it kinda like making zones. If they do a season cycle it might be short not taking months hehe but it would be cool to have real seasons. They could also add like winter servers spring servers and so on.

Yeah, I think that's more likely than seasons. It would be lovely to have seasons but I think the programming behind it would be a bit too much for the final effect.

[Leo Balzac 190]

"What is needed to make hardcore, hardcore?" 2 things. Penis, Vagina.

[Magodark22 31]

 

3) Colder.

Colder nights, and harsher environments in the north.

I would like to see snowy areas  eventually included, perhaps with high-risk high reward loot spawns in them that you would have to spend a lot of time gathering the neccessary equipment to traverse through the cold (insulted clothes, firewood, ect) though this is more of a wish for both modes.

 

Nice, really liked your idea, on the cursor however i think it need for aiming for itens purpose... you got remove then when you equip a weapon tough...

[darthbane67 92]

Er.. you quoted me. I'm guessing you just got the quotes wrong, easily done.

All we can do is wait and see. I have a sneaking suspicion that the default vanilla will be lacking a little in terms of being a difficult game to play, and that's totally understandable you don't want to make a game so awkward that it deters people from playing it. I think that's what hardcore servers offers though, a chance to really work at the difficulty (and realism) level.

 

No I did not quote you i have checked 4 times or more I quoted Punkvegita.

 

Vanilla will not be lacking in realism or hardcore the game is suppose to be and is going to be a hardcore survival game. They will not cater to the make it easier crowd Dean has already said this. They have a player base and it is not the rush of fresh people who think the game is suppose to be easy. Those people will leave and people like me and you will stay as WE are the player base they are catering to. BI is not a big company so they do not (and will not) have to cater to some false premise of there game to people who don't like hardcore survival.

 

My point is this discussion thread needs to be about new things not stuff that is already coming. The season cycle is a good example of a new thing to add to game.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

Didn't read everything but as for the wells, the water is probably coming from tainted rivers or ponds and if its not, remove about 80% of them

[rickyriot 1009]

No I did not quote you i have checked 4 times or more I quoted Punkvegita.

No offence but you clearly did, post #21 in this thread; you quote me then go on to say "Calling for different hit point values..".

Look, it doesn't matter. I didn't call for differing hit points and you think you were answering someone else. It's no big deal.

Vanilla will not be lacking in realism or hardcore the game is suppose to be and is going to be a hardcore survival game. They will not cater to the make it easier crowd Dean has already said this. They have a player base and it is not the rush of fresh people who think the game is suppose to be easy.

The problem of course is that Rocket is leaving, and just reading between the lines of his streams there seems to be stuff added to the game he doesn't even know about. That's not trying to knock the guy, he has driven the project forward, and I appreciate the work he has put in on this and the mod.

Those people will leave and people like me and you will stay as WE are the player base they are catering to. BI is not a big company so they do not (and will not) have to cater to some false premise of there game to people who don't like hardcore survival.

It's all about money though. I've had experience in working for companies that have suddenly found out their product is worth considerably more than they realised and DayZ certainly falls into that category. Look at CoD for a direct comparison. The first games were all about the PC and the community, it's the reason the devs left EA (after doing MoH:AA) to make 2019 games (which in turn became Infinity Ward) but the franchise became too much for them and we now have something so removed from it's original core community that it's like night and day.

My point is this discussion thread needs to be about new things not stuff that is already coming. The season cycle is a good example of a new thing to add to game.

Ok, I take your point, but this discussion thread wasn't started by you, it was started by me, it's not solely about adding new stuff it's about how we take a vanilla product and tweak it to suit more hardcore game style. New stuff is great, that is a very valuable addition, but it's not mutually exclusive to tweaking what is already there.

[punkvegita 44]

Nobody is talking about making brand new mechanics, were merely suggesting tweaking a few, and I do listen to a lot of dev blog and Dean interviews and he clearly states in a couple of them that he wants a lot more difference between Regular and Hardcore other than just the 1PPvs3PP, Dean leans towards the Hardcore crowd but he's also smart enough to know that there's enough Casual players out there to make it worth making 2 modes.

[charliepow 100]

Hardcore is (and always should be) for people who want to play the vanilla game without putting up with stupid corner-hacking.

 

I'm not against alternate game modes, but there really needs to always be a vanilla 1pp-only mode.

[dusty_nuttles 130]

I would rather have the debs focus more on the game itself than on the 2% of players that play HC.

[oregonized 673]

I just want to know why ALL water sources should be infected?  Especially, the fucking rain.  This is just nonsensical.

[Eight Ball 26]

I just want to know why ALL water sources should be infected?  Especially, the fucking rain.  This is just nonsensical.

He said it multiple times. It wouldn't be for the sake of realism but to make the experience more challenging.

 

 

I like all your other ideas and I can see them work, this one though I do not see it being implemented. your basically saying that all men are tougher and stronger than all women, when in reality it varies. Personally I do not see how making one better than the other would make hardcore a better experience.

I can't understand why people are even arguing this.

It's like if I was saying "Black people have darker skins than white people" and then you'd reply "yeah but it depends of the lighting, and some people are light brown, blablabla"

 

In this world women are weaker then men. it's a FACT. There are exceptions but that's exactly what they are : exceptions.

There's absolutely nothing wrong to say that, it's not sexism, it's how we were made and it's been like that for thousands of years.

Edited March 1, 2014 by Sooke

[coltonlong 211]

I say we need a good, rigidly defined body damage system for say concussions, broken bones, punctured lungs, sucking chest wounds, infected cuts from rusty weapons, etc. MOAR MEDICAL STUFFZ!!!

[rickyriot 1009]

Hardcore is (and always should be) for people who want to play the vanilla game without putting up with stupid corner-hacking.

 

I'm not against alternate game modes, but there really needs to always be a vanilla 1pp-only mode.

 

If you look at the mod there were quite a few servers that forced the perspective, so in that sense I think there will always be a way of catering for players who are happy with vanilla but just wish 1PP exclusivity. And that's fair enough, I'm not knocking that. I also feel there will be quite few people who like a much harder challenge. How many people? Who knows, that will be the true test.

 

I would rather have the debs focus more on the game itself than on the 2% of players that play HC.

 

I think 2% is undercutting it a little, but I don't think you have any fears of the game missing out on development in order to make hardcore all the more difficult. It's more about tweaking and enhancing rather than wholesale changes that vanilla wouldn't benefit from.

I just want to know why ALL water sources should be infected?  Especially, the fucking rain.  This is just nonsensical.

Forgive me for being overly literal here, but nonsensical suggests the inability to derive sense from a premise. It's quite clear what is implied. As Sooke has pointed out, it's about increasing the challenge element. You can make an argument for all the water to be infected. Personally I like the idea of having to work for your drinking water, and remember you will always have cans of "soda" which will be potable. As for the rain, all I suggested was that it would be nice for you to have the ability to collect the rain. Once that mechanic is within the game then you can open up the argument of whether it's infected as well. As we have no direct narrative regarding how the infection began or spread you could make the case for it being in the rain, but that's just me throwing it out there, we would need to be able to collect it first.

[omambuscus 27]

Ok, so we've all read the lamecore/hardcore debates, and that's all for the lulz and of course I'm more than happy to indulge in a little bit of jesting to oil the wheels, however what is needed in order to make the hardcore variant the sort of realistic survivalist shooter people want? I used to play a lot of CoD (when it was good) and the difference between hardcore and lamecore tended to be based around damage and hit range. Clearly with DayZ being based around a military simulator that's not really something that will be a defining factor as all the bullet physics and damage algorithms are going to be the same; ie you are not going to hurt less from falling the same distance dependent on the server type. So what do we need in order to make hardcore a real challenge? Obviously in hardcore the 3PP viewpoint is removed, that's a given so we don't need to discuss that (no.. really we don't, so let's not). We know that certain things will need to be improved in general (sound effects, for example) but those will be improved for both game types. Here are a few ideas aimed specifically at the hardcore mode:  1) First off I would like to see the aiming cursor removed. I've always felt it's been left in as part of the Alpha test build and will disappear sooner rather than later. 2) All water sources are infected. There might be a case where some pumps or ponds are not infected in the non hardcore server, although we've yet to find that out, however for hardcore I'd like to see all of them infected. You can only gain liquid from cans or boiling/purification. Rain collection would be a nice addition to this, but that's open to debate on whether that source would also be infected. 3) Colder, or at least a greater difference between daytime and nighttime temperatures based on the environment (sunny, cloudy, windy, etc)  I'd like to see clothing take on a much bigger role. It did so in the mod and I'm sure it'll make an appearance as the Alpha trundles along, but in general I'd like to see the ambient temperature being much less resulting in the need to find more/warming clothing and the need to keep clothing repaired. Food intake would also need to be upped as you would be burning more calories. Fires and other heat sources would be important as would cover and the insides of buildings - it would be particularly nice if we could use the already existing fireplaces of those buildings for our own fires. I don't want to move it so far as the possibility of burning houses down as I feel that would be a step too far (plus just about all the map would be burn out by over zealous kiddies!). 4) Fatigue. I don't want it so you need to stop every 5 minutes but I think fatigue should be more effective. A soldier can run for miles with a full pack and still have no problem processing the information around them and fighting enemies. Thing is in the game we are not soldiers, we are joe public and our bodies should react like joe public. If this means that female characters react differently then perhaps that's a Pandora's Box we should open (no smutty pun intended!). I am all for equality but the fact of life is that on average women have less muscle strength than men, does that mean they can withstand less pain, no not necessarily - after all they go through childbirth. You could also argue that the average female body is smaller and lighter which might be an advantage in certain circumstances. 5) Recovery. We clearly need recovery, and it'll never be realistic in comparison to real life (ie: a character taking months to get over a leg break), but I think it needs to be ramped up somewhat in hardcore. Currently you can go from near death in a gunfight to being almost full health in roughly 30 minutes if you have enough food and water. I'd like to see a case where you take (in game) maybe 10 or 12 hours between that transition.  It would provide more to the dynamic of an encounter if you needed to factor in the current state of your character and what possible outcomes if your player suffered more lasting after effects.Edit: I'm going to add a "6" here, apologies to those who have answered only quoting the 5.6) The inability to see how many bullets you have in a clip from the HUD/inventory. You either count your shots or interact with the gun (removing the clip) to see how many you have left.  Ok, so those are just some of the ideas off the top of my head. I'm not trying to indulge in any flaming here in regard to the different server types so let's leave that for the other threads I'd be interested to see if we could get a consensus on the way forward for hardcore.

I agree with everything, but the water. Though I don't think the devs should focus on this right now. They should implement things like this during the beta or something because right now they need to focus on some of the game's game-breaking bugs and glitches

[Lorax 99]

1- Yes, but I've thought about this before. I would like it to pop up when you use the action wheel, that way you can pick up items easier...sometimes you just need to get it just right.

2- I like the suggestions that some pumps don't work, and they randomly change every restart. Also pumps and moving water should have a low chance of infection (we are talking about regular bacteria and viral, not zombie virus) compared to standing water.

3- I would like to see temp be more involved, but I'm pretty sure they are working on this so we should see and wait

4- Fatigue, but not too much because these characters are in shape hence why they survived. I'm in decent shape and could jog for over an hour with a back pack moderately full.

As for the difference between sexes that gets tricky. If you were to have female characters not be able to carry as much weight (weight will be introduced last I knew), then you should balance it with females being able to withstand more pain before they need meds. It is true they can handle more pain...also they wouldn't need as much water and food to survive, but that wouldn't be too noticeable. More importantly we need more women playing DayZ. I believe that getting more women in the game will do more for interactions in the long run than most mechanic changes. I could write an essay on this, but we can't make playing a female character a hindrance or an unattractive choice

5-Yes

6-Yes

[oregonized 673]

Forgive me for being overly literal here, but nonsensical suggests the inability to derive sense from a premise. It's quite clear what is implied. As Sooke has pointed out, it's about increasing the challenge element. You can make an argument for all the water to be infected. Personally I like the idea of having to work for your drinking water, and remember you will always have cans of "soda" which will be potable. As for the rain, all I suggested was that it would be nice for you to have the ability to collect the rain. Once that mechanic is within the game then you can open up the argument of whether it's infected as well. As we have no direct narrative regarding how the infection began or spread you could make the case for it being in the rain, but that's just me throwing it out there, we would need to be able to collect it first.

Rain water being contaminated is dumb, I wouldn't mind if all pond/swamp water needed boiled, and there would be a 50% chance to get infected from well/pump water if you didn't boil it first.  

 

I understand making the game more difficult but faux difficulty in the form of an annoyance would most likely drive people away.  I would prefer difficulty came from adding deadlier aspects such as super aggressive zombies that can travel in large packs and wildlife that can kill/maim you such as bears, cougars, and boars.

[m4cowboy 4]

I'd love to see a character bound to server.  Absolutely ZERO server hopping with your HC character.  :-)

[rybo 171]

He said it multiple times. It wouldn't be for the sake of realism but to make the experience more challenging.

 

 

I can't understand why people are even arguing this.

It's like if I was saying "Black people have darker skins than white people" and then you'd reply "yeah but it depends of the lighting, and some people are light brown, blablabla"

 

In this world women are weaker then men. it's a FACT. There are exceptions but that's exactly what they are : exceptions.

There's absolutely nothing wrong to say that, it's not sexism, it's how we were made and it's been like that for thousands of years.

 

Sexist bastard!!!1

 

Lulz, I'm on your side...

[darthbane67 92]

No offence but you clearly did, post #21 in this thread; you quote me then go on to say "Calling for different hit point values..".

Look, it doesn't matter. I didn't call for differing hit points and you think you were answering someone else. It's no big deal.

The problem of course is that Rocket is leaving, and just reading between the lines of his streams there seems to be stuff added to the game he doesn't even know about. That's not trying to knock the guy, he has driven the project forward, and I appreciate the work he has put in on this and the mod.

It's all about money though. I've had experience in working for companies that have suddenly found out their product is worth considerably more than they realised and DayZ certainly falls into that category. Look at CoD for a direct comparison. The first games were all about the PC and the community, it's the reason the devs left EA (after doing MoH:AA) to make 2019 games (which in turn became Infinity Ward) but the franchise became too much for them and we now have something so removed from it's original core community that it's like night and day.

Ok, I take your point, but this discussion thread wasn't started by you, it was started by me, it's not solely about adding new stuff it's about how we take a vanilla product and tweak it to suit more hardcore game style. New stuff is great, that is a very valuable addition, but it's not mutually exclusive to tweaking what is already there.

 

NO the quote you said the whole "you probably think I think this is beta not alpha" was a response/quote you attributed to the #19 post. Which was a response to Punkvegita not to you. This is not hard to understand in post #22 your first quote of mine is post #19 that is the quote I said I was not talking to you. This is not difficult to understand just look at #22.

 

So what if rocket is leaving the game and there are no gaps or things in the game he does not know about at least not major ones. Rocket is not leaving till the end of 2014/Beta if that even he has said he will stay as long as he feels he is needed and not getting in the way. Him leaving does not change the main pillars this game is being built on, which are a HARDCORE SURVIVAL REALISM.

 

BI is not like all the other companies how do you not understand this yet. They are a small company nothing like EA Infinity Ward/Activision/Treyarch. They are not tied down with having to come out with big blockbuster titles for the masses. They specialize in a certain game play and certain player base. They got the money that they wanted from DayZ the rest of the money they get is a nice addition. This game will not be ruined by some big wig saying make it easier to give me money. It will only be hurt by people who do not understand what DayZ and BI are. Just because A company and B company act a certain way does not mean or show a trend on how C company will act.

 

Like I stated everything in your OP has already been stated to be coming down the road of alpha to beta. So yes when you say that this is a discussion thread about how to make hardcore different then go on to say the things that are coming to both REGULAR and HARDCORE. You should come up with NEW things to add to the discussions like the seasons. Yes this thread wasn't started by me but you opened it to the public as a discussion I want to see it be a discussion about new things not the things that are slated for arrival. That is how you make sure a conversation does not stagnate. 

[darthbane67 92]

This discussion has turned into a sexist rant and redundant comments where are the forums mods when you need them.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

We do not need a difficulty slider.(By this I mean we don't need a more hardcore server type)  This game has two settings, 1pp or 3pp nothing less, nothing more.  The game should stay the same across the bored in terms of hardcore playing with pvp, pve(infected & wild animals) and survival (starving, freezing, getting sick or dying of thirst)