The Community's List of Suggested Weapons for Dayz Standalone (Version: 1.29)

[-Gews- 7443]

The M-21 would be redundant if an M-14 were added with match grade barrels, long range scopes etc, but I figured a true M-21 itself would be great just for long time OFP/ARMA fans as it was a classic gun from OFP: CWC so many years ago.

 

The problem is that OFP took place in 1985, the M21 officially went out of service in 1988. 

 

If they were going to add an M14 it should look something like this if military...

 

 

and like this, if civilian...

[OnionOfShame 138]

The rangefinder in the scope is not electronic in the design I had in mine. The reticle simply has a series of horizontal markers that represent a man's shoulder width. If the target's shoulder width matches with the length of the line, the target is correctly ranged, with the shot striking in the centre of that line.

Ohh, I see what you mean now. In this case I wouldn't have a problem with it spawning on the gun. I believe this type of reticle is on the ACOG Scope in-game, but it would be nice to have on a true sniper scope as well.

[OnionOfShame 138]

The problem is that OFP took place in 1985, the M21 officially went out of service in 1988.

If they were going to add an M14 it should look something like this if military...

and like this, if civilian...

Agreed. It would be nice if, for example, the civilian version spawned at civilian weapon locations, but the more "tactical" version (i.e. Pistol grip, rails, collapsible stock, etc., like the first image you posted) could be used as a sort of attachment, replacing the standard wooden furniture but keeping the internal parts, fou d at heli crashes. Of course this wouldn't work at all with the current instant system of attaching things to weapons, though.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

The military variant would use 7.62x51 NATO, not .308 Winchester, but that round is confirmed to be coming eventually with the FN FAL so it doesn't really matter.

I do like the concept of a scope with a built-in rangefinder, but I think that it should spawn as a loose item rather than coming pre-attached to a gun (and of course, it requires a battery).

On the weapon overall, I'd rather they add the M14. The M21 is essentially just an M14 modified for longer range combat, and such modifications (longer barrels, etc.) are confirmed to be coming eventually. So overall if they add the M14, which I think is more likely, there is no point in adding the M21 as a separate weapon.

The FN FAL will most certainly use the .308 Winchester round ingame already - they're both almost exactly the same round and technically .308 and 7.62x51mm are just synonyms using different systems of measurement. Plus, pretty much every T65 standard military rifle can fire civilian .308 cartridges anyway so there's no need for both.

 

snip

I'm not in strict opposition to them being added, but black powder muzzle loaders are far from practical weapons even in a post-apocalyptic setting.

 

In DayZ specifically, I see no real reason anyone would want to use these in a practical sense. Building them is not a quick or easy task - anyone just looking for a quick ranged weapon would be much more inclined to build the ashwood bow. Likewise, making proper ammunition for them isn't a simple process either, and at least in the future you'll have a chance to re-use arrows that have already been fired. Not only that, but besides being a craftable alternative, the bow's main use is as a completely silent and deadly weapon. Muskets are not only more complex and impractical to build but are also very loud and let off a lot of smoke - it would draw zombies and players like the mod's Lee-Enfield, except you only get one shot and by the time they reach you you're probably still reloading.

 

And sure, there might be some pre-apocalypse antique muskets sitting around in houses and barns - that's not impossible by any means, but in pretty much no area of the globe would they be more common than "modern" hunting arms, so the only real reason the vast majority of players would pick up a musket is because they wanted to - not because it was their only choice. I wouldn't even give them the complete advantage of being a "sustainable" firearm in this case, because with advanced weapon crafting mechanics and various usable complex machines placed around the map, it may very well be possible for players to machine their own bullets, so who knows.

 

Even in a real apocalypse I can't foresee a massive switch back to black powder firearms. The survivors as a whole will have more experience with modern weapons than black powder ones and the focus will be on rebuilding factories and places where ammunition can be machined, because modern guns will last quite a long time (there are AKs built in the 50s that are still in regular use.) If the apocalypse is so bad that no semblance of order can be restored by the time that all modern weapons are gone and we've somehow been kicked back to the stone age, then we're probably fucked anyway.

 

Agreed. It would be nice if, for example, the civilian version spawned at civilian weapon locations, but the more "tactical" version (i.e. Pistol grip, rails, collapsible stock, etc., like the first image you posted) could be used as a sort of attachment, replacing the standard wooden furniture but keeping the internal parts, fou d at heli crashes. Of course this wouldn't work at all with the current instant system of attaching things to weapons, though.

 

Advanced weapon crafting using workshops and factories around the map is apparently planned so we might see some more complex things occurring in the future. However, with this instance specifically I can't see any reason that US special forces and marines would be carrying around M39/MK14 conversion kits for wooden Norinco rifles in the region.

 

If both were included they'd be two separate weapons.

[Whyherro123 2283]

 

 

I'm not in strict opposition to them being added, but black powder muzzle loaders are far from practical weapons even in a post-apocalyptic setting.

 

In DayZ specifically, I see no real reason anyone would want to use these in a practical sense. Building them is not a quick or easy task - anyone just looking for a quick ranged weapon would be much more inclined to build the ashwood bow. Likewise, making proper ammunition for them isn't a simple process either, and at least in the future you'll have a chance to re-use arrows that have already been fired. Not only that, but besides being a craftable alternative, the bow's main use is as a completely silent and deadly weapon. Muskets are not only more complex and impractical to build but are also very loud and let off a lot of smoke - it would draw zombies and players like the mod's Lee-Enfield, except you only get one shot and by the time they reach you you're probably still reloading.

 

And sure, there might be some pre-apocalypse antique muskets sitting around in houses and barns - that's not impossible by any means, but in pretty much no area of the globe would they be more common than "modern" hunting arms, so the only real reason the vast majority of players would pick up a musket is because they wanted to - not because it was their only choice. I wouldn't even give them the complete advantage of being a "sustainable" firearm in this case, because with advanced weapon crafting mechanics and various usable complex machines placed around the map, it may very well be possible for players to machine their own bullets, so who knows.

 

Even in a real apocalypse I can't foresee a massive switch back to black powder firearms. The survivors as a whole will have more experience with modern weapons than black powder ones and the focus will be on rebuilding factories and places where ammunition can be machined, because modern guns will last quite a long time (there are AKs built in the 50s that are still in regular use.) If the apocalypse is so bad that no semblance of order can be restored by the time that all modern weapons are gone and we've somehow been kicked back to the stone age, then we're probably fucked anyway.

 

 

You can make a blackpowder muzzleloader with a length of pipe and a hot piece of wire (seriously, that is literally what a cannon is). The above process is to make it "pretty", and make it seem more familiar as a firearm.

 

As for bows, I have stated before, in numerous threads, that the "improvised bow" in Day Z would most emphatically not effectively work as a viable weapon in real life. That just ... is not how you make an effective bow, coming from someone who has made numerous bows before. Whenever I see the bow-making process, and how effective it is, I am flabbergasted and shake my head. It literally only works due to developer ignorance/not-giving-a-shit to the whole process. Same thing with making arrows. Arrow-making takes time and skill. It has taken me an hour and a half to make a single arrow, from beginning (stick, feathers, and arrowhead), to finished product (first, you have to make sure it is the right length. Then, the right weight. Then, the right amount of flexibility. Then, you have to straighten it, which in and of itself is a process. Then, nocking, fletching, and testing.). In an hour, I could (and have) crank out 30 musket balls.

 

As for the whole "makes a lot of noise and smoke" thing .... yeah, and? Take your shot, then go hide behind a tree or in a bush. Wait for the enemy to move up, then nail them again. "Stick and move". Or, make a spike-bayonet to stick on the front end. No zombies will trouble you. If you can turn a barrel, you can turn a spike bayonet.

 

Finally, the firearms will last a long time, but the ammunition most emphatically will not. Almost everything that is required to make new bullets, or reload spent ones, essentially requires international trade, as well as some pretty hefty chemistry knowledge. Where, for example, are you going to be getting your smokeless powder? The stores will only last for so long...... Nitoglycerin, one of the many compounds that goes into smokeless powder, requires concentrated sulfuric acid and nitric acid. Where are you going to get those? Who are you going to make the powder? Do they know how? I don't know of anyone that makes their own smokeless powder. On the other hand, I know of plenty of people who make their own blackpowder. It is a much simpler process.

 

Or, for modern cartridges, where are you going to get the primers? Again, stockpiles will only last for so long without international trade.... Where are you going to get the lead styphenate, which itself is made of a chemical reaction of other, hard-to get chemicals. Can you locate these chemicals in Chernarus? Again, who is going to be synthesizing these chemicals?

 

Or, brass for cartridges? You can only use "stepped" (don't know the technical term" brass cartridges a few times, until the brass gets too weak. Straight-walled cases can be reused many more times, but none of the "military/military surplus" firearms use straight-walled cases. Do you know when to retire a cartridge, or the right mixture of brass to use to make more? Do you know how to make brass?

 

Or, bullets, the bit that goes "pew", for those who don't know what actually goes into a cartridge ( I know you know, Chaingunfighter). Using soft lead, or even lead made from wheel-weights (which is harder), leads to "leading" in the barrel, which can range from "annoying" to "deadly", which is why modern firearms use "jacketed" bullets. Do you know how to jacket bullets? Which materials to use?

 

You don't "machine" new ammunition, you synthesize it, out of chemicals that, in all senses of realism, probably don't really exist in Chernarus. Most of the worlds mercury (for primers and other industrial processes) comes from China nowadays, which might as well be on the far side of the moon from Chernarus for all the good it does.

 

Remember, if something can't be found in Chernarus, it effectively does not exist, post-apocalypse, once the local supply is used up. "Logistics" are FUCKED. Oil-based fuels, solvents, and fertilizers? Gone. Synthesized medicines? Gone. Electrical parts? Gone. "New" vehicle parts? Gone. Until supply lines open up and trade starts with regions outside, we aren't getting anything new.

 

The only place in Chernarus that probably would have the materials to make new bullets, primers, cases and smokeless powder would be Chernarusk Zbrojovka, the regional/national firearms company. And, since there is no facility of said company in South Zagoria, all those materials and such are useless.

 

So, so long as the supply of cases, bullets, powder and primers lasts, you can have "modern" bullets. What happens, however, when those supplies run out?

 

"The Road" happens. "Mad Max" happens. Where you are lucky to have a gun, much less bullets for that gun, because the knowledge has been lost.

 

Also, no, we wouldn't be kicked back to the Stone Age. A liquid-fuel-powered generator can be converted to run off of wind-power, or water power, or hell, even moonshine if it is diesel. So long as you can make the thing spin, you're good to go. So, we have electricity, even if only a little, and that gives us lights, heat, and power for machines (while those supplies last, of course. I don't know about you, but I can't make a lightbulb in my basement)

 

There also would be "law and order", in the form of local militas (which we can assume already happened, in the form of clans and such). They would have guns and ammunition, but again, what happens once those bullets run out?

 

Finally, the "apocalypse" IS BAD< if only just because international trade is now interrupted, on top of there being both a whole slew of disease outbreaks, famine, and "totally-not-zombies" breaking down your door.. Case in point: mid 50's, mid-central Africa. The locals were given a bunch of tractors to help them with farming. They loved it.... until the fuel, and parts for the tractors ran out. Hundreds of thousands of people died from starvation, or diseases caused from malnutrition. No apocalypse, just the supply-lines being broken for a few months. They couldn't maintain the "lifestyle" (amount of food, quality of food, goods they could buy due to money from crops sold, etc) they were accustomed to, or could support outside of local manufacturing capabilities, and they died due to it.

 

Of course "the bullets running out" would never happen in Day Z, because this is a game where bullets magically spawn from thin air, as opposed to actually relying on real-world logic and logistics. I, for one, would love (LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE) it if there were a game mode down the line where things just didn't respawn. Once you fired a bullet, ate a can of food, used a dose of medication, that would be it. It wouldn't be coming back, next server reset. That would mean 1) you would have to actually conserve your supply of "modern" things, and 2) find some way to either make more of the "modern" things (which would be difficult, due to the lack of international trade. I am not seeing many peach trees around Chernarus, for example.), or find a more "sustainable" alternative. Reload those straight-walled cases with blackpowder, which you make from the materials you can find in your base. Use an alcohol-powered generator, using booze you distill from food you grow. Use bread-mold (aka penicillin) for antibiotics instead of the more effective "modern stuff', which is in short supply these days.

TL:DR: I can make everything I need to shoot a blackpowder muzzleloader with things I have in my backyard/house. Bullets, powder, patches, even the actual firearm, if I am pressed enough. Quite simply, in fact.  Can't quite do the same for "modern" bullets, or firearms. 

 

 

EDIT: I reread my above NOVEL, and I realize I kinda-sorta sound like one of those "Prepper" kooks. I am not, not really, I just take the Boy Scout Motto seriously ( Be Prepared). This extends to my lifestyle: I rarely eat meat I don't hunt, I eat food from local farms (which, asides from being MUCH better for the environment, tastes good and is better for me than something shipped across the country), and use tools that I've either made myself ( a bow, a spear, a set of bolas, various traps), or can be made from materials that can be located "nearby" (leather, wool, wood, not plastic or rubber). Not that I believe that something "apocalypse-y" like Day Z is going to happen, but it is ... better to be safe than sorry?

Edited July 24, 2015 by Whyherro123

[Syphonz 64]

-snip-

There's a few things that we have to consider here still.

 

Black powder firearms are NOTORIOUSLY inaccurate, and this has proven to be so with NUMEROUS tests from numerous people. There is ways to make the gun more accurate, yes, such as grooving in the barrel, and other minor things that can be improved, but still.

 

 

Yes herro, you have said several times in several threads how inaccurate the bow is and how impractical it is. I get that. You say your a survival expert, I get that.

 

 

And yes, this is a survival game, that prides itself on realism, I get that too.

 

 

However, the days have to make some bends in order to have GAMEPLAY. Your right, a bow wouldn't be a grand weapon improvised in RL. But this is a video game, and some allowances have to be made.

 

 

 

As for the black powder rifle, its inaccurate in RL, yes you say its easy to make, but, in game, it'd be extremely noisy, very visible, not very accurate, and have a long reload time per shot. HOW many players would use this, other than the ones trying to stick to the pure "living off the land" playstyle. Probably some yes, but not very many at all.

 

EDIT: Spelling. God damnit syph, get your shit together. :)

Edited July 24, 2015 by Syphonz

[atempleton 123]

I suggested a while ago antique stocks of 1853 Enfield muskets from captured British stocks from the Crimean War, or whatever the Russian caplock equivalents are from the Crimean War era. The ammunition could either be found pre made, or you could combine a rag with blackpowder (either premixed or mixed yourself though I'm not sure how to do that) and it would create an empty magazine, which you could then load with a stone (inaccurate but works) and fire, or find a minie ball (accurate enough out to 300m for iron sight and one hit kills) and load that into a cartridge.

The ammo could be tedious but the gun would be decently accurate with iron sights, and pack one hell of a punch (one hit kill) but the gun would be loud and there'd be some smoke, making the shot have to count.

Also, an improvised hand cannon from steel/lead piping combined with matches would be cool as an over the shoulder gun, but difficult to aim and very inaccurate. Ammunition could be black powder + stone, or some nails to function as a blunderbuss. The blunderbuss feature with nails would do devastating damage at close range to someone who doesn't wear armour.

[Whyherro123 2283]

There's a few things that we have to consider here still.

 

Black powder firearms are NOTORIOUSLY inaccurate, and this has proven to be so with NUMEROUS tests from numerous people. There is ways to make the gun more accurate, yes, such as grooving in the barrel, and other minor things that can be improved, but still.

 

 

Yes herro, you have said several times in several threads how inaccurate the bow is and how impractical it is. I get that. You say your a survival expert, I get that.

 

 

And yes, this is a survival game, that prides itself on realism, I get that too.

 

 

However, the days have to make some bends in order to have GAMEPLAY. Your right, a bow wouldn't be a grand weapon improvised in RL. But this is a video game, and some allowances have to be made.

 

 

 

As for the black powder rifle, its inaccurate in RL, yes you say its easy to make, but, in game, it'd be extremely noisy, very visible, not very accurate, and have a long reload time per shot. HOW many players would use this, other than the ones trying to stick to the pure "living off the land" playstyle. Probably some yes, but not very many at all.

 

EDIT: Spelling. God damnit syph, get your shit together. :)

 

Ah, I see you fail to do your own research into the matter.

 

Blackpowder muzzleloaders are NOTORIOUSLY inaccurate when used in the fashion of LINE INFANTRY. They would use an undersized ball (leading to windage between the ball and the barrel), slam the ball down onto the powder (which would also lead to the ball being unevenly seated onto the powder, making it bounce down the barrel), and literally not even aim at the enemy when firing. All this so they could load in 10 seconds, and throw as much lead at the enemy as possible. This would lead LINE INFANTRY to have horrible accuracy at 50 meters or so, and is directly why 99% of people think blackpowder muskets are horribly inaccurate. Most of the reports we have on musket behavior come directly from military sources, not civilian hunting reports.

 

Remember: in the US colonies, a musket was primarily a hunting weapon. Tell me: do you think someone would use a hunting weapon that cannot make reliably-accurate shots past 50 meters? (which is spitting-distance for a deer) No, muskets were plenty accurate, when used in the right way. Use a tight-fitting bullet, with a tight patch, and you can (so long as you know the firearm, and have some skill) reliably make tight groupings on a target 100, even 150 meters away. There are plenty of videos on the Youtube where people do just that. And those shots are with unrifled barrels! With proper rifling, you can reach out to 200, 250, even 300 meters! With a .50 to .71 caliber bullet, nonetheless. Whatever it touches is dead, or going to die in a few seconds. That leaves a BIG hole. Not so for arrows.

 

As for "gameplay balance", I believe that gameplay should be balanced by sticking to realism as much as possible. Yeah, of course there should be modern bullets and firearms. However, there should also be a much more limited supply than there is (Alpha, and all that), and when you run out of the "modern stuff", what are you gonna do? Synthesize new ones out of condensed hopes and dreams? No, you improvise, and use bayonets, bows, or hopefully, realize that you could make a functional and effective firearm out of some stuff you probably are gonna have anyways (if you are an effective survivor). 

 

More on "balance"; I would also love to see a more realistic medical system, instead of "slap a dirty rag on it and sit down a spell". Getting injured should be a big deal. Remember, we don't have advanced medicine, and no real doctors, either. Every would should have the possibility to become infected, if it doesn't kill you outright from shock. More realistic gear-carrying (actually have to take off your backpack if you want to look through it, etc), more realistic movement speeds and stamina, more realistic temperature management, more realistic food and nutrition, more realistic hunting and foraging, all that. It all balances itself out, that way

[Chaingunfighter 917]

You can make a blackpowder muzzleloader with a length of pipe and a hot piece of wire (seriously, that is literally what a cannon is). The above process is to make it "pretty", and make it seem more familiar as a firearm.

 

As for bows, I have stated before, in numerous threads, that the "improvised bow" in Day Z would most emphatically not effectively work as a viable weapon in real life. That just ... is not how you make an effective bow, coming from someone who has made numerous bows before. Whenever I see the bow-making process, and how effective it is, I am flabbergasted and shake my head. It literally only works due to developer ignorance/not-giving-a-shit to the whole process. Same thing with making arrows. Arrow-making takes time and skill. It has taken me an hour and a half to make a single arrow, from beginning (stick, feathers, and arrowhead), to finished product (first, you have to make sure it is the right length. Then, the right weight. Then, the right amount of flexibility. Then, you have to straighten it, which in and of itself is a process. Then, nocking, fletching, and testing.). In an hour, I could (and have) crank out 30 musket balls.

 

As for the whole "makes a lot of noise and smoke" thing .... yeah, and? Take your shot, then go hide behind a tree or in a bush. Wait for the enemy to move up, then nail them again. "Stick and move". Or, make a spike-bayonet to stick on the front end. No zombies will trouble you. If you can turn a barrel, you can turn a spike bayonet.

 

Finally, the firearms will last a long time, but the ammunition most emphatically will not. Almost everything that is required to make new bullets, or reload spent ones, essentially requires international trade, as well as some pretty hefty chemistry knowledge. Where, for example, are you going to be getting your smokeless powder? The stores will only last for so long...... Nitoglycerin, one of the many compounds that goes into smokeless powder, requires concentrated sulfuric acid and nitric acid. Where are you going to get those? Who are you going to make the powder? Do they know how? I don't know of anyone that makes their own smokeless powder. On the other hand, I know of plenty of people who make their own blackpowder. It is a much simpler process.

 

Or, for modern cartridges, where are you going to get the primers? Again, stockpiles will only last for so long without international trade.... Where are you going to get the lead styphenate, which itself is made of a chemical reaction of other, hard-to get chemicals. Can you locate these chemicals in Chernarus? Again, who is going to be synthesizing these chemicals?

 

Or, brass for cartridges? You can only use "stepped" (don't know the technical term" brass cartridges a few times, until the brass gets too weak. Straight-walled cases can be reused many more times, but none of the "military/military surplus" firearms use straight-walled cases. Do you know when to retire a cartridge, or the right mixture of brass to use to make more? Do you know how to make brass?

 

Or, bullets, the bit that goes "pew", for those who don't know what actually goes into a cartridge ( I know you know, Chaingunfighter). Using soft lead, or even lead made from wheel-weights (which is harder), leads to "leading" in the barrel, which can range from "annoying" to "deadly", which is why modern firearms use "jacketed" bullets. Do you know how to jacket bullets? Which materials to use?

 

You don't "machine" new ammunition, you synthesize it, out of chemicals that, in all senses of realism, probably don't really exist in Chernarus. Most of the worlds mercury (for primers and other industrial processes) comes from China nowadays, which might as well be on the far side of the moon from Chernarus for all the good it does.

 

Remember, if something can't be found in Chernarus, it effectively does not exist, post-apocalypse, once the local supply is used up. "Logistics" are FUCKED. Oil-based fuels, solvents, and fertilizers? Gone. Synthesized medicines? Gone. Electrical parts? Gone. "New" vehicle parts? Gone. Until supply lines open up and trade starts with regions outside, we aren't getting anything new.

 

The only place in Chernarus that probably would have the materials to make new bullets, primers, cases and smokeless powder would be Chernarusk Zbrojovka, the regional/national firearms company. And, since there is no facility of said company in South Zagoria, all those materials and such are useless.

 

So, so long as the supply of cases, bullets, powder and primers lasts, you can have "modern" bullets. What happens, however, when those supplies run out?

 

"The Road" happens. "Mad Max" happens. Where you are lucky to have a gun, much less bullets for that gun, because the knowledge has been lost.

 

Also, no, we wouldn't be kicked back to the Stone Age. A liquid-fuel-powered generator can be converted to run off of wind-power, or water power, or hell, even moonshine if it is diesel. So long as you can make the thing spin, you're good to go. So, we have electricity, even if only a little, and that gives us lights, heat, and power for machines (while those supplies last, of course. I don't know about you, but I can't make a lightbulb in my basement)

 

There also would be "law and order", in the form of local militas (which we can assume already happened, in the form of clans and such). They would have guns and ammunition, but again, what happens once those bullets run out?

 

Finally, the "apocalypse" IS BAD< if only just because international trade is now interrupted, on top of there being both a whole slew of disease outbreaks, famine, and "totally-not-zombies" breaking down your door.. Case in point: mid 50's, mid-central Africa. The locals were given a bunch of tractors to help them with farming. They loved it.... until the fuel, and parts for the tractors ran out. Hundreds of thousands of people died from starvation, or diseases caused from malnutrition. No apocalypse, just the supply-lines being broken for a few months. They couldn't maintain the "lifestyle" (amount of food, quality of food, goods they could buy due to money from crops sold, etc) they were accustomed to, or could support outside of local manufacturing capabilities, and they died due to it.

 

Of course "the bullets running out" would never happen in Day Z, because this is a game where bullets magically spawn from thin air, as opposed to actually relying on real-world logic and logistics. I, for one, would love (LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE LOVE) it if there were a game mode down the line where things just didn't respawn. Once you fired a bullet, ate a can of food, used a dose of medication, that would be it. It wouldn't be coming back, next server reset. That would mean 1) you would have to actually conserve your supply of "modern" things, and 2) find some way to either make more of the "modern" things (which would be difficult, due to the lack of international trade. I am not seeing many peach trees around Chernarus, for example.), or find a more "sustainable" alternative. Reload those straight-walled cases with blackpowder, which you make from the materials you can find in your base. Use an alcohol-powered generator, using booze you distill from food you grow. Use bread-mold (aka penicillin) for antibiotics instead of the more effective "modern stuff', which is in short supply these days.

TL:DR: I can make everything I need to shoot a blackpowder muzzleloader with things I have in my backyard/house. Bullets, powder, patches, even the actual firearm, if I am pressed enough. Quite simply, in fact.  Can't quite do the same for "modern" bullets, or firearms. 

 

EDIT: I reread my above NOVEL, and I realize I kinda-sorta sound like one of those "Prepper" kooks. I am not, not really, I just take the Boy Scout Motto seriously ( Be Prepared). This extends to my lifestyle: I rarely eat meat I don't hunt, I eat food from local farms (which, asides from being MUCH better for the environment, tastes good and is better for me than something shipped across the country), and use tools that I've either made myself ( a bow, a spear, a set of bolas, various traps), or can be made from materials that can be located "nearby" (leather, wool, wood, not plastic or rubber). Not that I believe that something "apocalypse-y" like Day Z is going to happen, but it is ... better to be safe than sorry?

 

That's probably the most thought-out and well-written rebuttal to something I've ever said - and you're correct. I think I was being a bit too giddy about trying to cross my logic over into the real world and wasn't really applying my understanding of the other side when arguing about it.

 

So I concede that you're right - black powder firearms are a much more sustainable and thus more 'reliable' form of weapon post-apocalypse.

 

 

However, for DayZ the point remains that it'd just be impractical and there's no use in having the devs make one. I could absolutely getting behind a gamemode that effectively just made the loot system like it was when the alpha first came out; everything is already there and will not respawn, but now you have all the tools you need to build things using crafting. At first people would be using their AKMs and M4A1s and MP5Ks, but eventually yeah most of those firearms are going to run out of ammunition and be mostly useless, so anyone left will have to choose to keep looking for more ammo/other guns or start building. I like that idea.

[Syphonz 64]

Ah, I see you fail to do your own research into the matter.

 

Blackpowder muzzleloaders are NOTORIOUSLY inaccurate when used in the fashion of LINE INFANTRY. They would use an undersized ball (leading to windage between the ball and the barrel), slam the ball down onto the powder (which would also lead to the ball being unevenly seated onto the powder, making it bounce down the barrel), and literally not even aim at the enemy when firing. All this so they could load in 10 seconds, and throw as much lead at the enemy as possible. This would lead LINE INFANTRY to have horrible accuracy at 50 meters or so, and is directly why 99% of people think blackpowder muskets are horribly inaccurate. Most of the reports we have on musket behavior come directly from military sources, not civilian hunting reports.

 

Remember: in the US colonies, a musket was primarily a hunting weapon. Tell me: do you think someone would use a hunting weapon that cannot make reliably-accurate shots past 50 meters? (which is spitting-distance for a deer) No, muskets were plenty accurate, when used in the right way. Use a tight-fitting bullet, with a tight patch, and you can (so long as you know the firearm, and have some skill) reliably make tight groupings on a target 100, even 150 meters away. There are plenty of videos on the Youtube where people do just that. And those shots are with unrifled barrels! With proper rifling, you can reach out to 200, 250, even 300 meters! With a .50 to .71 caliber bullet, nonetheless. Whatever it touches is dead, or going to die in a few seconds. That leaves a BIG hole. Not so for arrows.

 

As for "gameplay balance", I believe that gameplay should be balanced by sticking to realism as much as possible. Yeah, of course there should be modern bullets and firearms. However, there should also be a much more limited supply than there is (Alpha, and all that), and when you run out of the "modern stuff", what are you gonna do? Synthesize new ones out of condensed hopes and dreams? No, you improvise, and use bayonets, bows, or hopefully, realize that you could make a functional and effective firearm out of some stuff you probably are gonna have anyways (if you are an effective survivor). 

 

More on "balance"; I would also love to see a more realistic medical system, instead of "slap a dirty rag on it and sit down a spell". Getting injured should be a big deal. Remember, we don't have advanced medicine, and no real doctors, either. Every would should have the possibility to become infected, if it doesn't kill you outright from shock. More realistic gear-carrying (actually have to take off your backpack if you want to look through it, etc), more realistic movement speeds and stamina, more realistic temperature management, more realistic food and nutrition, more realistic hunting and foraging, all that. It all balances itself out, that way

Actually, I HAVE done my research into this. Please dont say "I fail to have done my own research."

 

 

I have seen demonstrated these muskets before, both online, television, blah blah blah *insert media source here*. The model of musket you are considering creating would be as BASIC as you could get. If you can make it notoriously accurate, then, go ahead. Most guns in this game have fairly accurate ranges, so, lets start with the amphibia.

 

Range, roughly, 15-20 m's, which, makes sense.

 

This is a MODERN FIREARM.

 

 

Now, taken from the show Deadliest Warrior, which is one example, the french musketeer for example.

 

 

These are trained soliders, who are specifically trained to use these weapons. AKA, the flintlock musket.

 

This weapon was tested by Trauma Doctors, Paramedics, and people who were either experts on the musketeers and their weapons, or direct descendants. 

 

As described the experts, the weapon was accurate UP to 100m's, yes, like you said. And those are with TRAINED soldiers.

 

 

The flintlock musket was widely used in the 17th and 18th Centuries, with some seeing combat as late as the American Civil War. Because the weapon was not particularly accurate, the standard method of use involved large, tightly grouped formations firing in volleys, tactics which proved disastrous when more accurate, rapid-reloading rifles like the Henrybecame common. The musket itself was considered outdated after the American Civil War due to repeating rifles. However it existed in European colonies so that the native armies of those regions didn't have the technology available to rebel. This changed in WWI, as the European empires were forced to modernize their colonial armies for the conflict. Today muskets are sometimes used for hunting but are extinct on the battlefield.

 

 

Taken directly from the deadliest warrior wikipedia page, and described by them on the show.

 

Yes, some of your points are valid. They are used for hunting, sure. But nothing about them being accurate as you say, beyond 100m's. Yes, targets can be hit beyond that range, but the accuracy drops off dramatically beyond that.

 

Edit: I dont know why the text has a white background. Whoopsie.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Syphonz

[atempleton 123]

I could easily shoot a smoothbore Brown Bess to 100m and land consistent shots within 10 inches of one another, accurate enough to consistently strike people. I imagine a rifled musket like those common in the early 1800's would only drastically improve this.

The thing with the French Musketeers of the 1600's you need to keep in mind was their guns were smoothbore Flintlocks designed for firing rate rather than accuracy and they lacked sights. This combined with the infantry tactic of mass unaimed volley fire that they and most other nations used meant the guns weren't used properly.

If we have a rifled musket the gun should actually be accurate with sights out to at least 200m. They were the original hunting rifles, and in the hands of practiced marksmen/snipers such as the Green Jackets and Minutemen, incredibly accurate and deadly. They gave birth to the age of the sniper.

A home made musket would granted only be accurate to 30m maybe, but a handcrafted or machine produced musket can definitely be consistent over much longer ranges.

[hooligun 39]

Blackpowder musket: AKA the most sustainable firearm you are gonna get! No hard-to-make primers, no spent brass, no smokeless (aka hard to make) powder.

 

-Firearm:

 

Take a length of steel pipe and wrap it solidly in metal wire. This is to reinforce the pipe against the pressure of the explosion. (Black powder has relatively low pressures, so the wire might not even be necessary depending on the strength of the pipe. Cap one end (preferably, weld it shut), and drill a hole near this end (this is your "touch hole", aka how you ignite the gunpowder. Form a stock from some boards, and "attach" the stock to the barrel with some metal banding. (this will allow you to remove the barrel for cleaning).

 

Beneath the "touch hole", weld a small metal pan with a rotating cover. This is where you put the "priming powder" aka the powder that sets off the main charge.. Take a length of metal and form it into a "trigger and lock", so that when you pull the trigger, the lock rotates and brings the match to the pan.

 

Take a length of rope, and soak it in a solution of potassium nitrate. This will make the rope extremely slow-burning, and serve as your match.

 

-Powder":

 

Every couple of months, dig underneath your animal pen to find some whitish, powdery stuff. This is potassium nitrate. Make some charcoal from some form of softwood, and grind it up fine. Finally, locate a source of sulfur, either straight sulfur (easily available from any gardening supply store), some fertilizer (I am assuming the in-game fertilizer is sulfur-based, as the name and logo is literally a fire-breathing dragon), or just scrape down some match heads. You could also use finely-powdered rust, at reduced effectiveness. Mix these three ingredients in a 75% potassium nitrate/15% charcoal/10% sulfur ratio. After they are well mixed, mix them with some urine, and sieve it through a window screen. Boom (hahaha), you just made gunpowder.

 

-Bullets:

 

Take the wheel-weights off of wrecked vehicles, and melt them down into balls for shooting with. So long as the size is consistent, it doesn't really matter what size they are: a tight enough "patch" will make it more than accurate enough

 

-"Patches":

 

these are things that go over the gunpowder and under the bullet, to make sure there is a tight fit between the ball and the barrel (aka accuracy). You could use paper or cloth or leather (all, of course, are of different thicknesses, which means you could use smaller balls and get the same accuracy, but larger balls will do more damage). Using loose powder, you could get off 1 shot per minute.

 

Or, you could make a "paper cartridge", and make the reloading process MUCH faster, at the expense of accuracy. This would let you get between three and 4 shots off in a minute.

 

And, believe me or not, but a smoothbore musket can shoot tight groups out to 100 yards easily, and even further if you are skilled and know the firearm. The whole "muskets are stupid inaccurate" myth was true, in a sense, but only when used militarily. As a hunting weapon, they were quite good, to the point where Native Americans threw out bows in return for muskets.

 

Now, you might be asking yourself: why the hell would I want to use a (500 for a matchlock musket, 300 for a flintlock) hundreds-year-old firearm, when we have modern firearms right here? I will respond with SUSTAINABILITY. Yes, yes, right now there is a glut of ammunition of all types, to the point where you can wander around with hundreds of bullets jingling, but what happens later down the line? 

 

Realistically, Chernarus would run out of (quality. Who knows how many caustic acid-producing Soviet surplus ammo there is stockpiled?) actual "modern" bullets relatively quickly. Everything that goes into a "modern" bullet (smokeless powder, primers, brass, etc) essentially requires international trade, something that rather obviously isn't happening in a zombie apocalypse. So, there would be local stockpiles of both bullets, and the materials to make more bullets, but inevitably (realistically) they would run out.

 

Using a blackpowder firearm essentially removes you from that shortage. For the "survivalist", not relying on something from town is a gigantic blessing. You can literally make every part of the firearm, and it is infinitely easier than learning how to use a bow/crossbow/primitive ranged weapon.

 

Plenty of people (and not just in the US, either) today use blackpowder muzzleloaders for hunting, shooting, and recreational use. Anything on the North American continent can be killed with one of these, from a rabbit to a bear.

 

( I told you how to build a matchlock because they require less springs and such to make, compared to a flintlock. However, a flintlock could also be improvised relatively easily, say, with the striker from a lighter?)

 

 

no, thanks.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Actually, I HAVE done my research into this. Please dont say "I fail to have done my own research."

 

 

I have seen demonstrated these muskets before, both online, television, blah blah blah *insert media source here*. The model of musket you are considering creating would be as BASIC as you could get. If you can make it notoriously accurate, then, go ahead. Most guns in this game have fairly accurate ranges, so, lets start with the amphibia.

 

Range, roughly, 15-20 m's, which, makes sense.

 

This is a MODERN FIREARM.

 

 

Now, taken from the show Deadliest Warrior, which is one example, the french musketeer for example.

 

 

These are trained soliders, who are specifically trained to use these weapons. AKA, the flintlock musket.

 

This weapon was tested by Trauma Doctors, Paramedics, and people who were either experts on the musketeers and their weapons, or direct descendants. 

 

As described the experts, the weapon was accurate UP to 100m's, yes, like you said. And those are with TRAINED soldiers.

 

 

The flintlock musket was widely used in the 17th and 18th Centuries, with some seeing combat as late as the American Civil War. Because the weapon was not particularly accurate, the standard method of use involved large, tightly grouped formations firing in volleys, tactics which proved disastrous when more accurate, rapid-reloading rifles like the Henrybecame common. The musket itself was considered outdated after the American Civil War due to repeating rifles. However it existed in European colonies so that the native armies of those regions didn't have the technology available to rebel. This changed in WWI, as the European empires were forced to modernize their colonial armies for the conflict. Today muskets are sometimes used for hunting but are extinct on the battlefield.

 

 

Taken directly from the deadliest warrior wikipedia page, and described by them on the show.

 

Yes, some of your points are valid. They are used for hunting, sure. But nothing about them being accurate as you say, beyond 100m's. Yes, targets can be hit beyond that range, but the accuracy drops off dramatically beyond that.

 

Edit: I dont know why the text has a white background. Whoopsie.

 

Are you..... actually using "Deadliest Warrior" as backup for your points?

 

Firstly: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA oh JESUS. That show is the most poorly-researched faux-machismo-laden crock of shit I've ever seen. Don't listen to their "experts".

 

Secondly: You are still referring to "Line Infantry" tactics, which showed up as late as the US Civil War. On the battlefield, soldiers wouldn't be having duels with muskets, or even shootouts like modern troops. They would stand in big formations and blast at each other.Which, coincidentally, was one of the reasons why fatality rates were so high. The "standard firearm" for both sides of the conflict was a "rifled musket" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifled_musket), which while a "musket" and "rifled musket" are related, the usage of them are not the same. With "Line Infantry" tactics, a musket is effective out to 50 meters. With a "rifled musket", add about 150-250 yards, with more power, accuracy, and flatter trajectory. 

 

So, Line regiments in the Civil War were lining up 50-100 yards away from each other, with firearms that can easily reach out to 300 yards no problem. A .58 Minie ball will (and did) blow off limbs, and there are battlefields where there are trees that were cut down with rifle fire.

 

When used in "Line Infantry" style, yes, smoothbore muskets are indeed inaccurate. However, this is due to the loading process, not any particular deficiency of the firearm. With Line Infantry, "rate of fire" was literally the only thing they cared about, and therefore, reloading as fast as possible was the intended result of the "drill" process;

1) The soldier would use an "undersized" ball, to allow it to slip past fouling in the barrel. For example, the "Brown Bess" British musket was .75 caliber. Line Infantry would use .69 caliber balls. This increased the "windage", or the gap, between the sides of the musket ball and the barrel. This is important.

2) After dumping the powder from the paper cartridge down the barrel, the solider would crumple the paper, shove it in the barrel, and use it as a wad for the ball (to sit over the powder). This doesn't do anything about the windage between the ball and the barrel, unlike a patch.

3) After starting the ball down the barrel, the soldier would literally slam the ramrod down onto the ball+powder, to ensure it is seated. They would also bounce the ramrod off the top of the load, just to be sure. This would randomly compress the powder charge under the ball.

4) On firing, the ball, due to both the windage between the ball and the barrel, and the randomly-compressed powder charge, would literally bounce down the barrel as the charge burns. This means it would essentially leave the barrel in a random "cone" after firing. 

5) Plus, Line Infantry tactics did not include actual accuracy. Soliders would literally level their firearms at the horizon, and pull the trigger. Not aim at the enemy, but level with the horizon. Some units wouldn't even look at the enemy, but instead look at their officers. This is due to the fuckhuge clouds of smoke blackpowder creates. With 50+ guys all aiming in the same general direction, "artillery-style", you don't really need accuracy.

 

On the other hand, when loaded "properly":

 

1) Use a tight-fitting ball. For example, with a .75 Brown Bess, skirmishers and sharpshooters would usually use a .71 caliber ball. This lessens windage between the ball and  the barrel.

2) Use a tight-fitting patch. The "patch" is any material that fits AROUND the ball, between the ball and the barrel. Depending on the size of the ball, you could use paper (thin), cloth (middle), or even leather (thick). Using the proper-fitting patch completely eliminates any windage.

3) Don't "bounce" the ball onto the powder, or the ramrod off the ball. Instead, you gently push the whole ball+ patch down onto the powder, and make a mark on the ramrod so you know it is seated all the way. This way, everything stays nice and even.

 

, and braced on something like a wall, a tree, etc, a smoothbore musket is capable of reaching out to 100, even 150 meters. Which is what the Colonial militia did, in the Revolutionary War.  However, while you can win a skirmish that way, you can't win a battle, or even a war. So, what do you think 99.9% of the literature about smoothbore musket accuracy and performance was about? Line Infantry, not "sharpshooters".

 

Of course, the different methods of loading resulted in different firing speeds. Line Infantry, when well-trained, could get a shot off every 15-20 seconds, with some "crack" Redcoat units being able to crank out a shot every 10 seconds or so, for short periods. On the other hand, the "more accurate" method was much slower, with a shot roughly every 60 seconds, or even longer if you don't know what you are doing.

 

Case in point: at my local Boy Scout camp, we have a guy that does Blackpowder for the kids. When I was down there last, I shot a smoothbore musket reproduction, for the very first time on that firearm.

Using the "fast" method of loading, I was able to get reliable groups in the 8,9, and 10-ring on a 75 yard target. Of course, I was braced on a table, but it shows that a musket doesn't just fart out rounds. With a proper-fitting ball and patch, I am confident I could nail a 100 yard target easily, and even farther with some practice.

[Whyherro123 2283]

I could easily shoot a smoothbore Brown Bess to 100m and land consistent shots within 10 inches of one another, accurate enough to consistently strike people. I imagine a rifled musket like those common in the early 1800's would only drastically improve this.

The thing with the French Musketeers of the 1600's you need to keep in mind was their guns were smoothbore Flintlocks designed for firing rate rather than accuracy and they lacked sights. This combined with the infantry tactic of mass unaimed volley fire that they and most other nations used meant the guns weren't used properly.

If we have a rifled musket the gun should actually be accurate with sights out to at least 200m. They were the original hunting rifles, and in the hands of practiced marksmen/snipers such as the Green Jackets and Minutemen, incredibly accurate and deadly. They gave birth to the age of the sniper.

A home made musket would granted only be accurate to 30m maybe, but a handcrafted or machine produced musket can definitely be consistent over much longer ranges.

-Ahem-

 

"Brown Bess" muskets had sights. They had a rear notch sight, and the bayonet stud was used as the front post. I am imagining every other nations flintlock muskets were the same.

 

Flintlocks were used as hunting weapons. What use is a hunting weapon if it has no sights?

[atempleton 123]

I didn't say Brown Besses didn't have sights. I know they do. I've used an Indian Pattern Brown Bess before. French Musketeers also didn't use Brown Besses, consisting they were a thing of the 1600's and the Brown Bess dates from the 1700's onwards... Most military muskets pre 1700's had no sights because they weren't designed for aimed fire.

I didn't say at any point that rifled muskets like the hunting rifles lacked sights. But military models generally did at first.

[Whyherro123 2283]

I didn't say Brown Besses didn't have sights. I know they do. I've used an Indian Pattern Brown Bess before. French Musketeers also didn't use Brown Besses, consisting they were a thing of the 1600's and the Brown Bess dates from the 1700's onwards... Most military muskets pre 1700's had no sights because they weren't designed for aimed fire.

I didn't say at any point that rifled muskets like the hunting rifles lacked sights. But military models generally did at first.

 

Rifled muskets came about in the 1850s. 

 

And matchlocks, from the 1500s/1600s? Totally had sights.

 

You can see them here (https://youtu.be/X1WwQkeDuXs?t=24), here (

), here (

), and here (

).

 

They look to be a "standard" rear notch/ front post or ball. 

[atempleton 123]

There were many pre 1850s rifled muskets, but they were very expensive to manufacture due to the difficulty for the time to cut the grooves. Some good examples however of widespread pre 1850s rifles include-

-The Kentucky Rifles used by American Minutemen.

-Baker Rifles used famously by the Green Jackets of the British 95th Regiment.

-The various Jaeger Rifles common among German civilians and skirmishers.

-The Girardoni Repeating Air Rifle.

Some early guns did have sights, but again these were not common among military units globally until the latter part of the 1600's.

[atempleton 123]

Oh and the Breechloading Ferguson Rifles of the American Revolutionary War, used by British skirmishers at Brandywine Creek to devastating effect.

[Whyherro123 2283]

--Just for shits and giggles--

 

Or, you know: you could scale it up, and make some full-blown artillery pretty easily.

 

3lber cannon: load with a 3lb scrap-metal-cast cannon ball and 1/4 lbs of blackpowder, to DESTROY (seriously, the following video made me happy. A cannonball just NOPES its way through an entire car) vehicles and buildings out to 400 yards, 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tsql5Wv0TiE,

 

or, load with a wooden sabot and a fuckton of musket balls, for some canister-shot anti-personnel goodness (effectively turns the cannon into a gigantic shotgun) 

 

A 3lber cannon would weigh about 400-500 lbs, meaning you could drag it behind a vehicle pretty easily, or even wheel it up onto some earthworks somewhere.

 

Or, for a more "personal touch", make a "swivel-gun", aka a baby-cannon that you could mount on the back of a truck.

 

 

Or, if you REALLY want to kill something dead, use chain-shot. Stuff a bunch of chains down the muzzle, turn the roadside to blood and shredded EVERYTHING.

 

Edited July 27, 2015 by Whyherro123

[atempleton 123]

I would also love to see an improvised hwacha as a mounted weapon too. A few steel or lead pipes + wooden pallet + duct tape, and fireworks as ammunition. Small explosions and inaccurate, but the fire power would be devastating if used correctly against infantry.

[atempleton 123]

Plus, everyone loves the fabulous display of fireworks at night right up close to the action.

[OnionOfShame 138]

Glock 17:

http://www.thespecialistsltd.com/files/imagecache/product/files/Glock%2017%20OD.jpg

The Glock 17 or G17 is a semi-automatic Pistol of Austrian origin which fires 9x19mm rounds. Other Glock variants exist, chambered in .357, .380, .45, and more but the G17 is one of the most common. It was the first commercially successful handgun (and one of the first firearms) to be constructed largely of polymer. This handgun has a reputation for reliability and durability, and is very light dup to its polymer construction. For this reason it is very popular with law enforcement agencies, civilians, and some military forces all across the world. It can be fitted with a Pistol suppressor, and has an integrated forward rail for the attachment of flashlights and other accessories.

Edited August 5, 2015 by OnionOfShame

[atempleton 123]

Sawed-Off Blaze anybody?

[star-lord252 83]

Sawed-Off Blaze anybody?

I heard it was in the files but been in there but hasn't been added like the grenade launchers. It would be nice to have one maybe it'll be more accurate then the sawed of shotgun. I wanted the other version of a sawn of shotgun the one that isn't double barrel and is still pump like the one for GTA 5 or cs go available for the terrorists side but I doubt it'll come in.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I heard it was in the files but been in there but hasn't been added like the grenade launchers. It would be nice to have one maybe it'll be more accurate then the sawed of shotgun. I wanted the other version of a sawn of shotgun the one that isn't double barrel and is still pump like the one for GTA 5 or cs go available for the terrorists side but I doubt it'll come in.

The "Sawed-off shotgun" in GTA 5 is really just a compact pump-action based on guns like the factory shortened Mossberg 500 and Serbu Shorty. The MP-133 with pistol grip is a very close analogue to that gun.

 

However, if they ever add that M870 they showed off before (albeit with wood furniture) you could make this;

 

Which would be pretty badass. Besides that the only other sawed-off shotgun design I can think of would be an Over/Under shotgun, and that would be the same as the IZH-43 in a lot of ways.