Why DayZ is no survival game

[DeatHTaX 1217]

I agree but come on its so dam easy, again (alpha) but ....

 

Stop there

[Demoth 366]

Arabs are some of the nicest people I've ever met.

Most of the US population has only experienced Arabs through how the news portrays them, or if they were in the military and sent over seas.

That'd be like being a guard at a high security prison for violent offenders and then making the sweeping statement that all minorities and white guys with tattoos were criminals. (And I await the typical response that this IS in fact the case).

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

For one this is alpha, the fourms are here for input on the game, When i said what do you do? i meant besides killing other players. So as of now and help me if im wrong, you start the game, you get gear/food and drink, you get a gun, go kill others, die start over. So is this how you see the game, and is this all the game will ever be, and is this how you all like the game to be? All i was trying to say is the game needs more (alpha i know) but would like to see some plans for the game, so maybe if you could lead me to that great.

 

You want to see plans? http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/156129-confirmed-upcoming-features-for-dayz/

 

I certainly don't see DayZ the way you've explained. My goal is not to arm myself and go kill players. My goal is simply to survive. Sometimes I approach people, sometimes I observe them, sometimes I run from them. I've yet to shoot at anyone, but some day I might have to do that too.

 

I didn't want to start listing off things that I do in-game because everyone's tastes are different, and I don't really feel like defending things I feel are fun(Which is what those lists always amount to). Maybe the only thing you can find fun is killing other players. That's fine, but if that gets boring and you can't find anything else to entertain yourself, I don't think the game should constantly reward your survival, in order to keep you interested in playing.(Which is what this thread implies)

 

I think people are expecting too much from "more". I fear a lot of people expect that new features will give direction to this game. But, from what I've read and heard on the subject, the additions will only enhance what is already here. It will increase difficulty and increase the amount of work we have to do, but the game is always going to be basic, there's always going to be nothing to do except what you decide to do. Hunting, cooking, vehicles, those things are not going to add in anything major, they just extending the scavenging & movement gameplay we already have. Increased medical difficulties, if anything, will make suicide even more attractive. More items to loot will just keep us looting over and over.

 

To answer your question, yes, this is how I like DayZ to be. Basic, but open ended. A real sandbox without direction, without instruction, without mercy or reward. But, I'm not your average gamer. I've never liked things like achievements, or skill trees. Never been a fan of friendly fire protection, aim assist, or an intrusive HUD. I played games like minecraft for hours and hours, without mods, without other players, just screwing around doing my own thing, do whatever struck me as fun. I would rather tinker around with a mob spawner for hours than to run through some 'on rails' single player campaign. I'm an extreme team player in most games, but when it comes to DayZ I don't even use teamspeak, I don't even play this game with my friends. I've taken to the role of survivor, embraced the environment and all its limitations. I make real dayz friends as an individual, in the game, not because they're a key to my fun, but because they're sharing my virtual world, they're in this same meat grinder, trying to keep the red in.

[Heiduk 265]

First of all I wouldn't be communicating with people 10km away. Secondly, if I wanted to go 10km, I would just run there because survival is what I'm looking for in my DayZ time. I'm not looking for a quick fix, I'm not looking to maximize my fun. I'm not looking to work the system to make my time more useful. I'm looking to put myself to the test in the environment Rocket has outlined for us.

 

If you can't find the point in running 10km, what's the point in even playing DayZ? What's the point in playing any video game? It's all just meaningless 1's and 0's painting pixels on your screen. You gain nothing, your time is always wasted.

 

This is largely how I play too, but realize that playing this way requires a conscious choice to roleplay as if you were in the situation. There are very few mechanics that actually encourage players to approach the game in this way. As a result the illusion of survival tends to break down as soon as you encounter other players. The problem was nicely summarized in one of Rock, Paper, Shotgun's recent articles:

 

Fixes and additions are of course welcome, but DayZ is at its best when everyone playing it has bought into the survivalist fantasy. Right now the game needs re-balancing in ways that enforce that kind of behaviour. Too often I’ll be slowly exploring a town only to see another new survivor sprinting bow-legged towards me without a care in the world, because that survivor doesn’t yet have anything of value to protect, knows they can outrun any zombie they aggro, and can more quickly search houses that way. It’s also common to have new survivors come up to you and beg you to kill them, if there aren’t any tall buildings around that allow them to do it themselves, so they can respawn at a hopefully better location. All of this undercuts the the central conceit that you’re vulnerable and your life is valuable.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/01/20/into-the-wild-dayz-adds-berry-picking-balances-stomachs/

[skyline-gtr 130]

"DayZ is at its best when everyone playing it has bought into the survivalist fantasy"

 

This, if you did not know is an opinion and the basis of the portion of that article which you posted.

He then goes on to say that the game needs re-balanced to enforce how he thinks the game is at its best.

 

Pretty poor article if you can see the reality.

[ImmunePower 26]

I guess you  somewhat correct but, it's alpha.

[skyline-gtr 130]

So this is a game in which you are given very little to start off with.

You are thirsty and very soon you will also be hungry.

If you do not find some water and food soon you are going to die.

So far we can see that the element of survival is high.

This continues throughout the entirety of the time you spend in game.

If you do not find or have access to food and water constantly you are going to die.

Any social interactions are entirely dictated by the people involved in those and have no bearing on the essence of the game.

The core of the game is survival, therefore "Survival game"

You may roleplay or teamup, infact they are little to no boundaries stopping you doing anything you want to do.

But sooner or later you are going to have to submit to the most basic of human needs to survive.

[Heiduk 265]

"DayZ is at its best when everyone playing it has bought into the survivalist fantasy"

 

This, if you did not know is an opinion and the basis of the portion of that article which you posted.

He then goes on to say that the game needs re-balanced to enforce how he thinks the game is at its best.

 

On Steam DayZ is described as:

 

DayZ is a gritty, authentic, open-world survival horror hybrid-MMO game, in which players follow a single goal: to survive in the harsh post-apocalyptic landscape as long as they can.

As the OP and the RPS quote point out, currently there is very little reason for a player to make surviving as they can a goal, let alone their only goal. Therefore, although it may have aspirations of one day becoming a survival game, right now it is just a hybrid-MMO that some people play as a survival game.

[skyline-gtr 130]

Are we now quantifying reason ?

[Artophwar 42]

At some point for everyone getting gear is going to become easy. There needs to be other things to make your life valuable. I agree with adding some form of skill system where you get better at thing the more you do them. I also read about books being made into things you can learn from in another thread which I think is a great idea too. Adding these things will make you more attached to your character and less likely to want to suicide because your character has things that cant just be found in 20-30 mins but has to be earned over a much longer time.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

 As the OP and the RPS quote point out, currently there is very little reason for a player to make surviving as they can a goal, let alone their only goal. Therefore, although it may have aspirations of one day becoming a survival game, right now it is just a hybrid-MMO that some people play as a survival game.

 

I think the solution is already in place tho, you bore those people to death until they leave the game.

 

If I started playing a racing game and rather than racing down the track for the best times, I just smashed into other racers and acted like it was a destruction derby, because that is the game I really want it to be, would you suggest that racing game change to win me over? Should they add in rewards for me not smashing into people? That assumes that every smash is a bad smash, or that not smashing is a good thing. Which it might not be in every case. Somebody blocking the racing line might need a nudge, or smash to learn to get off the track next time.

 

Point is, if we add rewards for people who survive, or increase the punishments for dying, then we're going to inevitably punish everyone, either for not getting the reward, or for dying when it was out of their control.

 

A good example would be death bans. Sure, a 6hr death ban would be great for stopping suicidal tactics. But, it's also going to stop an honest player from playing. There are plenty of other ways you could discourage being suicidal, but 99% of them aren't perfect and will inflict unjustified pain onto honest players. Should we all live in a padded world because a few people can't be careful of the sharp edges?

Edited February 2, 2014 by bad_mojo

[Heiduk 265]

I don't know what the solution is, but it seems to me that if DayZ's goal is intended to be the extremely authentic "survive as long as you can" the developers need to figure out a way to simulate the driving biological imperative to do just that which is present in nearly all living creatures.

In the real world death is an awfully sharp edge. In this game it's barely an edge at all.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Maybe there could be a "premium hive" of sorts. If your character can survive longer than X amount of game time, they would be granted access to premium servers. As soon as you die, you're back in the normal servers. It wouldn't lock you to only the premium servers, but it would be a reward for your character surviving a while.

[ninjaontour 123]

Hell of a long post to essentially say that without character attributes and leaderboards there's no sense in using survival as your end-game.

 

I disagree, but that isn't the point. In the mod we had "Day xxx" on login, and certain servers had leaderboards. Whilst I did enjoy the boards, I feel that either the login notification, or the journal we had later in the mod are both fitting additions.

 

The other side of that is that at the moment, I'm enjoying logging in and not getting a notification of where I am. I'm enjoying not having all the pieces of a map, having to use landmarks, the sun, or the stars to navigate without a compass.

 

It doesn't take hours to move from one side of the map to the other. If you're in Kamenka, and I'm in Berezino, you can make it to me within 20 minutes or so. I've made plenty of cross-map trips to meet up with friends, and can honestly say the only time I've suicided has been as a fresh spawn in the 4th hour after a restart when the east of the map is totally devoid of loot. 

 

Just because you don't find something fun doesn't mean everyone feels the same.

[Jumbaliah 113]

The biggest problem isn't that people make stupid posts like this. The problem is that the first 3 pages of this thread consist of "this is alpha, get over it noob." 

[JustYouForget 17]

Survival games are objective based.  This game has no objectives yet lol.. 

 

Building bases, Working on a project of some sort. What reason do you play once you have everything you need? Kill the 8 zombies in a town and run tot he next town? Kill people?

 

  Right now its just a military simulator with a few zombies. 

[cj14 189]

DayZ is a great game. I love it. In this game I am more emotionally involved than in any other game I have ever played. But there is one aspect I have to disagree with...

 

Now it may sound ridiculous, but DayZ is no survival game and it never has been.

 

What?! DayZ no survival game? But there is hunger, you can die of thirst and all that kind of stuff! It is super realistic!

 

Now hear me out, I will explain why DayZ is no survival game very soon, be patient.

 

 

Examples

 

You are Herberd, a guy who is running through the woods far, far in the north. You are hungry, you are thirsty. You survived for 200 hours, because you are a careful person. You don't have any ammunition for your weapon and your gear is mostly ruined. A friend is calling you "What's up man? I am at the coast, let's meet up!". Your friend at the coast? You would have to run hours to reach him. So you think: "What am I going to do?". Well, there is a simple solution, isn't there? You go climb up a tower and jump off the roof...

YOU ARE DEAD.

You respawn.

 

You are Janine, a woman who survived for 500 hours. You are a very skilled person. You know how to survive any combat situation. You use an M4 and really common gear. When you run up the stairs of a building you fall and break your right leg. The next hospital is far away, it would take you hours to limp over there.

Instead of crying for help, you go on the roof and jump down...

YOU ARE DEAD.

You respawn.

 

You are Mohammad, a guy who is always friendly to everyone. You survived for 1000 hours, your friendlyness is impressiv. But one thing you hate is other people telling you what to do. You walk along the coast. A group of 4 people is running straight at you. You never carry a weapon, so nobody shoots you on sight. Your are so funny that you managed everyone that engaged you to just leave you alone.

They tell you to stop. You make some jokes, but it seems they don't care about you. They tell you to drop your pants. Dropping your pants? You won't do this, you are a proud Mohammad and you would never do such a dishonorable thing. So you tell them "Go f*ck yourself", you are not kind anymore. One of the guys shoots you in the leg "DROP YOUR F*CKING PANTS AS*HOLE!", you have nothing to lose. No weapons, no gear, nothing. You simple tell them "Go on, kill me.".

YOU ARE DEAD.

You respawn.

 

You are Jack, you heard DayZ is a survival game. You start playing it. You find some gear, food and everything you need to survive. You run around in unpopulated areas so you don't get killed. You do that for 5 hours. Boring. Why are you doing it? There is no point is surviving. You decide to go to the coast and expirience something exciting.

YOU ARE DEAD.

You respawn.

 

I think you get the point. DayZ is no survival game because there is no point in surviving. If a player tries to survive at all costs, he will realise that the game is just boring. A life is simply worth nothing, the only thing there is are weapons, vehicles and houses. And as soon as you can store them, people will go maniac because they cannot lose anything if they die. A veteran character does not differ from a fresh spawn character.

 

But let us assume that there was a point in surviving.

 

 

What would happen?

 

If survival was more important than obtaining gear etc., people wouldn't run around the coast or hotspots. They would populate the whole map just to not encounter so many people. But as they do it, encounters will get more rare but also more unexpected. You are more likely to encounter a player at Shakhovka, because he will think the same as you think "I will go there because nobody is there". He wants to survive just like you, but you may encounter unwillingly.

Secondly people will act way more authentic. If I have a broken leg, I won't simply kill myself, I will do whatever I have to to survive. And if I have a 100 hours character, I may even kill my friend just to survive. These things happen in real life, but no way it would happen in DayZ. If you look at a character you spent weeks on, it may change the perspective of some players.

 

But how do we add the urge to survival, no matter what? The only way to do that, in my opinion, is adding a value to a characters life (obviously). And how to we do that? The only way is progression, meaning that the more you play a character, the more valuable he is. If I have a 100 hours character he is more valuable than a 10 hours character.

 

The most important question now is, how do we manage that? How do we add a value to a character? What would a player really care about?

 

 

Solutions?

 

Statistics:

It could show your friends how long your survived. But I don't think that would solve anything. How many people actually care about statistics, especially in a game like DayZ?

 

Appearance:

Your character could change his look the longer he survives. Not a good option in my opinion. Who cares about looking like a survivor? And more importantly, how do you want to differ a 100 hours character from a 1000 hours character?

 

Skills:

This is the only way to go in my opinion. The more you do something, the better you get in it. The more you craft things, the more chance you have to craft prestine things. The more you treat wounds, the less likely it is that you make a mistake while doing it. The more you repair engines, the more likely you are to repair a helicopter. etc.

Problem with this is, you have to balance it. We don't want immortal super soldiers, but the additions have to be good enough to add a real value to the character. It has to be more valuable than a really rare weapon. Doing something faster is not enough, because people don't really need that. They will still risk their lifes and do stupid things, I mean who cares if something is taking you 10 seconds or 9?

And the other thing is, if someone survived for 500 hours, hasn't he deserved a really good boost? I would give such a person the ability to shoot like a robot. Problem I am talking about is that the more your survive the better has to be the reward. If you survived 100 hours or 500 hours you want to feel the difference, otherwise it gets pointless and boring to survive longer.

 

???:

???

 

If you have ideas for solving this problem, for adding value to a character, go on and present it right here. I think this is the most important part for the game to change. We have to find a solution, or we will never have a survival game as Dean Hall intended it to be from the beginning.

(I know there have been similar threads like that, and I made one about character value myself, but in this one I wanted to point out what is wrong about DayZ in its current state)

Crying for help could take several minutes or even hours and guess what...this is a game, we won't spend 1 or 2 hours crawling hoping to find a guy to fix our legs...we want to get back to the game so we kill ourselves, is not a virtual reality simulator is a fucking zombie game

[irl-calibre 744]

speak for yourself I crawled for three nights with broken legs (must of taken me a good 4 maybe 5 hours) from 000,000 to Berizino hospital in the mod.. good times!!

Edited February 3, 2014 by Calibre

[skyline-gtr 130]

Survival games are objective based.  This game has no objectives yet lol.. 

 

Building bases, Working on a project of some sort. What reason do you play once you have everything you need? Kill the 8 zombies in a town and run tot he next town? Kill people?

 

  Right now its just a military simulator with a few zombies. 

 

I think you are mistaken mate.

The objective is to survive.

If there was other objectives, then those would be the game.

[svisketyggeren 662]

Making Dayz more like a survival game is easy....make food more scarce, make weather and temperature matter. Basically make the factors that count in real life count in game.

 

The survival factor that regards human interaction is already in game...ppl kill each others, try to survive. Survival in another aspect, would be survival in the woods, living off the land, staying warm etc...right now surviving gameplay like that is close to nonexistent.

Edited February 3, 2014 by svisketyggeren

[jbroge 30]

It's a game cry more please about how in alpha people get bored and want to restart

[skyline-gtr 130]

Making Dayz more like a survival game is easy....make food more scarce, make weather and temperature matter. Basically make the factors that count in real life count in game.

 

The survival factor that regards human interaction is already in game...ppl kill each others, try to survive. Survival in another aspect, would be survival in the woods, living off the land, staying warm etc...right now surviving gameplay like that is close to nonexistent.

 

Not sure how woods and living off the land neccessarily relates to survival.

The scenario is not the same as being lost in the wilderness in our current world.

The survival scenario presented is in a different world with far less humans, and unpopulated towns, and zombies...

[soulfirez 901]

6 hour death bans.

 

It will hurt honest players who already value their lives, but it will fix your "problem".

I know you were probably joking with this suggestion and i think 6 hours is probably to long but i do believe a lock out after death would help . I know i have a break after the death of a long lived character many dont but this would actuall solve a few problems such as death not having any sting in it when you group play and can run back to your body.

 

Now i dont mind KOS as it is needed to add tension to the game but levels maybea little high currently (just my opinion) a lock out of say an hour may MAY lessen it or atleast have you think twice with your charcter (initially it may increase KOS till the sting of death hits a few people)

[nuggit 246]

Sorry I couldn't read the whole post/thread. Your opinion is purely your opinion.

 

I play dayz because it is harsh, it is hard and is not a friendly and easy game. I play to survive.

 

If I break my leg, or am bleeding out, there is no way I am offing myself because it is easier. I will crawl until my last breath. Again read my above sentence, please.

 

The easier, quicker path seems to be the only viable option for a lot people. You only rob yourself from great experiences and will find in time it gets stale very quickly rinsing and repeating your same play style. 

 

Anything can happen when I try and survive, but waking up on the beach constantly because it is easier. No thanks I kindly decline.

[Sashbags 11]

only way i would support skills is if when you die you are reset to zero. like a new person, no memory of the past etc. 

 

and to reflect what others have said, each person chooses to play the game their way and that is how rocket wanted it. jump off a building to catch up with a mate who is a new spawn?? are you kidding me, i pride my self on how long my character has been alive, and what good am i to my friend if I have no gear. then we are both useless against any aggressors.

 

but at the same time if that is how some person wants to play the game then why stop it? loosing all your gear and then running the risk of being taken out by bandits near the coast is a pretty good punishment in my opinion, enough to not make me want to take this course of action.

 

2, have a spint or morphine, if you dont have either then you run the risk, if your choice is to then throw yourself off a roof again its your choice, or play with friends that can come and help you. or better yet what a great story to tell you friends, i broke my leg and managed to crawl for 2 hours crafted a splint and was good again!

 

3. mohammed chose not to listen, he knew he'd get killed if he refused, dont really see how this is a point against survival aspects, sounds like mohammed chose to be a nice guy and ran into some bandits, it was bound to happen, if i got held up i'd comply, or look for a way out, or refuse depending on how im felling.

 

4. Dont play dayz, simple this isn't the game for you.

 

so to your suggestions,

 

1. stats: try keeping your own, what does it matter to anyone else, or they should only be visible to you, no leader boards, no comparisons, then its up to you to decide who you share them with and whose you will believe.

 

2. appearance; all for this 100% beards, clothing degradation (pretty sure both of these have been said will be in the game) would also like more character customisation eventually to make it feel more like my character.

 

3. Skills: im not opposed to them entirely but you still need to be punished via perma death, can fit with the survival thing, more fires you make better you get at it, more butchering you do, fishing, crafting etc etc but once you die thats it, you have to start again.

 

 

also someone said something about new spawns wanting to be killed to get a better spawn, it isn't up to them, its up to you, if you choose not to kill people then people dont die by you, if you kill a new spawn then you are perpetuating the behaviour.

 

When trying to make a point or have an idea, try not to generalise. If you say this is a situation and this is what a player will do there is bound to be people who dont.