Ultra realism Vs Balanced game design

[sYs 133]

It should be zombie survival. Player interactions (pvp or whatever) is a side effect of the game. 

[kermo50 31]

At the end of the day a forum poll doesn't really make a difference, Rocket's "vision" was that of a survival simulator or "anti-game" and it's kind of his game.

 

While this is true, you couldn't say the community can't impact design decisions because otherwise why would he want so much community involvement? You couldn't convince me that what the community wants doesn't effect at least some of the decisions the develop team make.

 

In all honesty I think the backpacks are limited as they are because others are yet to be added... We had about 10 different kinds in the mod.

 

 

Possibly, just an example, we wont really know for sure until other items are added and the game is fully released. 

Edited January 8, 2014 by kermo50

[Imbalanxd 59]

Sorry i am not a teacher i dont have the time to spend 4 years in uni so i can competently explain to someone (who i merely believe to be playing stupid to get a bite out of me lol and i bite to easily a flaw of mine) But the gist of it is there is more than one meaning to balance and the gentlemen i replied to assumed by balance that meant make the game fair... Now if you would like to phone me we can have a long discussion of the term balance (and its many meanings because if you believe it only has one cleary your iq is somewhere below the 90 mark ,then we can discuss how the term relates in the making of a video game..

 

Yes. Insult people and fail to make any concise points whatsoever. Then, when questioned, claim superiority and run away. 

so smert

[Mos1ey 6301]

While this is true, you couldn't say the community can't impact design decisions because otherwise why would he want so much community involvement? You couldn't convince me that what the community wants doesn't effect at least some of the decisions the develop team make.

 

 

 

Possibly, just an example, we wont really know for sure until other items are added and the game is fully released. 

 

There is influencing design decisions and there is attempting to change the direction of the game.

[Itchysock 35]

Its to real as it is….I went into a hardware store and saw an axe, nearly picked it up and axed someone, luckily I then realised I wasn’t in game….balanced gaming better, last thing we need is for characters to need to have to take a dump or do a piss….

[Imbalanxd 59]

Here is my attempt to give one example sacrificing realism for balance.

 

Ok at the moment there are 3 bags available in the standalone, a small brightly colored civilian backpack (smallest), a large colored hikers pack (largest), and a hunters backpack which is earthy colored (medium). The lets leave the first bag out as it arguably the least desirable bright, stands out and has the least room.  The between the other two bags you get a choice one is larger and the other is more camouflaged...

Now I would argue that realistically you could argue that you would be able to find a military bag just as large and being camouflaged in military area's however this is not in the game to give a choice and some balance to gameplay leaving a best bag out of options.

 

I would also see this as an example of balance because it pertains to how the player interacts 

1. With the environment (how many items he can hold)

2. With other players (how camoflauged he is)

 

The previous poster, whose definition of balance I wanted, seemed to believe there was some form of "balance" that existed that didn't involve the interaction of two parties, and he thought that we were stupid for not believing the same. Of course, he was unable to give an example of what he meant, so he was probably just sour about something and decided to wear his big boy pants on the forum instead of addressing his real life problems.

 

Actually, that example gives me a good idea of what a possible definition for "balance" would be in a game like DayZ.

Balance in DayZ relates to how good an item is in a PvE sense, compared to how good an item is in a PvP sense.

So an item like the 30 slot bag suffers in terms of PvE, by having a lower inventory count, but is superior for PvP by being harder to spot, while the larger 35 slot bag is better for PvE, but is easier to see. However balance against one or the other(PvP or PvE), in isolation, doesn't exist.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Imbalanxd

[soulfirez 901]

Yes. Insult people and fail to make any concise points whatsoever. Then, when questioned, claim superiority and run away. 

so smert

No not running away just stepping aside before i actually do throw insults ( i made implications) i never claimed superiority merely there is more than 1 way to use the word balance i cant change the facts and they are sadly the facts i am never going to make you see that its pointless as is our continued and off topic chat .

 

I yield you win you win im a girly i am going to hide from your posts which well never made any concise points on why i was wrong( the wide use of the term of balance and how it relates to game making) how can i argue when there is nothing to argue it redundant and as effective as hitting my head on a wall...

[Imbalanxd 59]

No not running away just stepping aside before i actually do throw insults ( i made implications) i never claimed superiority merely there is more than 1 way to use the word balance i cant change the facts and they are sadly the facts i am never going to make you see that its pointless as is our continued and off topic chat .

 

I yield you win you win im a girly i am going to hide from your posts which well never made any concise points on why i was wrong( the wide use of the term of balance and how it relates to game making) how can i argue when there is nothing to argue it redundant and as effective as hitting my head on a wall...

 

The amazing thing is that you actually think you are arguing. Arguing what? The only thing I ever ask was that you clarify your position, yet you think you are involved in an argument. It must be tough being so adversarial. 

[kermo50 31]

There is influencing design decisions and there is attempting to change the direction of the game.

 

Come on now you could say that for every suggestion topic that is on the forums. I put this poll up as it was a VERY common theme that REPEATEDLY Came up in other threads, and I was interested in what people thought about it. What the dev's do with the all information on the forum is their business.     

[Greaves 131]

I vote for ultra realism in every aspect (yes i know, the zombie apocalypse is not real, but everything else)

 

There is only so far you can go, though. I like to play the game as real life like as possible. But it's still a game, it's not me ducking behind cover, hearing the bullets fly around, but it's my character. There is no real problem for me if he dies. So i'll never have the same realistic fear in-game, than i would in real life. But thats a good thing. The game can still be pretty tense.

 

However, there are a LOT of players who treat the game like a ''top lel hurr durr shot dat dudez faec i win'' arcade shooter. Like, say, Battlefield. This is not what the Devs had in mind. 

If those players would move on to other games, like, say, Battlefield, the game would become way more realistic already.

 

(Not to be condescending to gamers who play arcade shooters, hell, i like a good game of Battlefied every now and then. But don't make the mistake of thinking they're the same sort of game.)

Edited January 8, 2014 by Greaves

[soulfirez 901]

The amazing thing is that you actually think you are arguing. Arguing what? The only thing I ever ask was that you clarify your position, yet you think you are involved in an argument. It must be tough being so adversarial. 

my point was merely when i said balance 2 posters straight after made the assumption i ment making the game fair (they stated balance shouldnt be involved in a game like Dayz)

 

where infact things can be balanced (as in adjusted) to make the game any way the devs want to, a simple point lost on you or perhaps my inability to express it properly . i admitted i shouldnt have used the term balance but been more concise in what i ment but damn do i have to make every post a book on things when at the end of the day our opinions on the game mean little in regards to if rocket wishes it done a certain way he will do it that way.

 

You have used balance in regards to the backpacks (size versus its ability to be spotted) that was one acceptable use of it and i agree on that point again i had just started this whole convaluted rant session merely pointing out balance does not always equal fair nothing more nothing less.

 

EDIT oh and your backpack idea relates to realisim as you cracked at my use of balance when i used weapon balancing  as an example so um adversarial is often an approach used when people are being hypocrites...

Edited January 8, 2014 by SoulFirez

[Diggydug (DayZ) 331]

I'm all for more realism but to an extent.

 

I don't want to have to stop and take a piss every now and then and watch my nutrition. Have to recover for weeks after a gunshot wound until I'm back to how I was.

 

Becoming cripple for life because a zombie broke my leg and I didn't have proper medical treatment. 

Finding the right shoe size so I don't screw my feet up with all this running.

Cutting myself on a tin can when I'm eating tuna and getting infected with an unknown disease and only knowing the symptoms once it's too late.

Having back pain because of all the gear I tote around.

Walking everywhere because running for miles on end in otherwise practical gear is taxing.

Chafing so I have to walk awkwardly or stop and treat it and rest for hours.

Finding the correct tire size for a sedan.

Making sure your shoes are tied and taking them off occasionally.

 

Yeah realism sounds like a blast then huh?

 

We can't achieve the realism some of the forumers seem to want. We can't open up every cabinet, climb through windows or use an empty tin can to drink out of. We can't capture rain water. We can't shimmy up trees or climb faster up ladders. We can, however, use warm blood bags to regain lost blood, as long as it's the right blood type. We can crawl for miles with a broken leg. We can sprint for miles fully geared with only a drink here and there. We can survive a gunshot and then return fire while bleeding out. We can survive on an awful diet of tuna and soda with no true health issues.

People only argue realism when it's convenient, but seem to forget the unrealistic things that make DayZ playable.

 

 

We can't achieve true realism, it's still a game, but we should aim for certain aspects to be as realistic as possible, namely weaponry and vehicles. If you ask me, anyway. But when it comes to diet, physical limitations, and requiring certain tools to do X, I don't see why that should be as realistic as can be. Yes, we get it, you can open a can of beans without a can opener. So make the can opener useless? Or not.

 

 

There's a line, and I think Rocket is well aware of this. It's finding that line and getting near it instead of making this Virtual RealityZ.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Diggydug

[Greaves 131]

I don't want to have to stop and take a piss every now and then and watch my nutrition. Have to recover for weeks after a gunshot wound until I'm back to how I was.

 

Becoming cripple for life because a zombie broke my leg and I didn't have proper medical treatment. 

Finding the right shoe size so I don't screw my feet up with all this running.

Cutting myself on a tin can when I'm eating tuna and getting infected with an unknown disease and only knowing the symptoms once it's too late.

Having back pain because of all the gear I tote around.

Walking everywhere because running for miles on end in otherwise practical gear is taxing.

Chafing so I have to walk awkwardly or stop and treat it and rest for hours.

Finding the correct tire size for a sedan.

Making sure your shoes are tied and taking them off occasionally.

 

I want all of those things in the game.

 

Isn't this game about simulating life in the zombie apocalypse? Then let it be life-like, is what i say.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Greaves

[Diggydug (DayZ) 331]

I want all of those things in the game.

Yeah yeah someone always says that when I point out some shitty aspects of life that are thankfully not in the game. Everyone would suicide the second they hurt their foot and just re-acquire their gear.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Diggydug

[DaGolem 95]

My personal feeling is that this Forum has to many Ultra Hardcore Realism people with they own definition of realism & logic.

There are many very good suggestion for more Fun in this game, but the UltraHardcoreRealism fraction torpedo every good idea.

It is very sad that they destroy many good idea´s in the beginning! They don´t think about the idea´s, they don´t develop the Idea´s the only try to destroy them.

Always with the arguments of realism and they own definition of what this game should be.

 

You can see it in many Threads they always try to destroy not to improve or to be helpfull with good criticism.

The only goal is to kill the Idea´s under the paradigm of they own defintion of realism and logic.

 

It quite annoying to see good or fun suggestion that get spamming down under the avalanche of UltraHardcoreRealism People.

Edited January 8, 2014 by DaGolem

[deebz1234 243]

haha 50%

 

suck it people who wine about KOS and other realistic elements..

[Greaves 131]

Yeah yeah everyone always says that when I point out some shitty aspects of life that are thankfully not in the game. Everyone would suicide the second they hurt their foot and just re-acquire their gear.

 

You underestimate me. I would actually love for these things to be in game. It will keep the scum away, which for me is the biggest dealbreaker at the moment.

[Greaves 131]

My personal feeling is that this Forum has to many Ultra Hardcore Realism people with they own definition of realism & logic.

There are many very good suggestion for more Fun in this game, but the UltraHardcoreRealism fraction torpedo every good idea.

It is very sad that they destroy many good idea´s in the beginning! They don´t think about the idea´s, they don´t develop the Idea´s the only try to destroy them.

Always with the arguments of realism and they own definition of what this game should be.

 

You can see it in many Threads they always try to destroy not to improve or to be helpfull with good criticism.

The only goal is to kill the Idea´s under the paradigm of they own defintion of realism and logic.

 

It quite annoying to see good or fun suggestion that get spamming down under the avalanche of UltraHardcoreRealism People.

 

You say fun, but everyone has a different opinion on fun. Some might find adding robots from outer space fun, but would that fit in the game, as the developers see it? Na. 

 

I prefer ''UltraHardcoreRealism''. To each his own. It all depends on what the devs will want the game to be, ultimately.

[Mutonizer 78]

Go as completely crazy hardcore realism as possible, just because!

Screw balance, screw ease of play, tons of other games do that.

 

Go nuts! :)

[Alias Mias 37]

Most of us would like to see the game develop into something more realistic, but there is a line to be drawn. I put the following scenario to you:

You are looting a barn, accidentally fall off of the upstairs area and break your legs. Would you be happy to wait several weeks in real time for your legs to be mended, hoping that you don't starve to death, or would you prefer to reach into your backpack and apply that morphine so that you can continue playing the game. Seriously, things like item degrading is a great addition to DayZ, but people need to remember that it is still a game, and if every design decision was made in the direction of realism alone, not many people would enjoy the game anymore.

[DaGolem 95]

You say fun, but everyone has a different opinion on fun. Some might find adding robots from outer space fun, but would that fit in the game, as the developers see it? Na. 

 

I prefer ''UltraHardcoreRealism''. To each his own. It all depends on what the devs will want the game to be, ultimately.

A Good example is the First vs. Third Person view.

The UltraHardcoreRealism fanatic don´t want the Third person gameplay and they don´t want that player have a choice to play it.

 

This is behavior is exemplary for many things in the entire suggestion Threads!

If they don´t want something then they try to destroy it, not a optional, only destroy.

No matter what, it can be optional but NO! They don´t want they try to kill idea´s.

[ratiasu@hotmail.co.jp 122]

Realism, which means incredibly hard gameplay with features which heavily depend on real-life knowledge. Deep real-life knowledge. Not something someone can pick up and be at least mediocre at after a week or so, like BF. Also means military weapons a la DMR, and no the Walking Dead clone. DayZ should make it's own path.

 

Edit:

 

 

Go as completely crazy hardcore realism as possible, just because!

Screw balance, screw ease of play, tons of other games do that.

 

Go nuts!  :)

 

 

This. Screw casuals for just THIS ONCE please! It's not like they've got millions of games and we hardly got even a handfull the past 5 years. Oh wait... It is.

Edited January 8, 2014 by Ratiasu

[kermo50 31]

A Good example is the First vs. Third Person view.

The UltraHardcoreRealism fanatic don´t want the Third person gameplay and they don´t want that player have a choice to play it.

 

This is behavior is exemplary for many things in the entire suggestion Threads!

If they don´t want something then they try to destroy it, not a optional, only destroy.

No matter what, it can be optional but NO! They don´t want they try to kill idea´s.

 

I think that people sometimes post things like this (I haven't read that particular thread) to create a bit of controversy and bait more people in getting involved into the argument. I personally really dislike when people start making inflammatory and negative comments just to get a bit more attention.

[Mutonizer 78]

Most of us would like to see the game develop into something more realistic, but there is a line to be drawn. I put the following scenario to you:

You are looting a barn, accidentally fall off of the upstairs area and break your legs. Would you be happy to wait several weeks in real time for your legs to be mended, hoping that you don't starve to death, or would you prefer to reach into your backpack and apply that morphine so that you can continue playing the game. Seriously, things like item degrading is a great addition to DayZ, but people need to remember that it is still a game, and if every design decision was made in the direction of realism alone, not many people would enjoy the game anymore.

 

To really break (as in, bone snapped) both legs, it takes a little more effort than just falling down a small stair and a huge amount of really bad luck. Usually you'll sprain something or may have a small bone fracture. In game, you could limp for some time depending on treatment maybe? :)

Otherwise, Morphine affects pain and unless really specific, a broken leg can still support some weight usually. You could potentially shoot up morphine to ignore such pain and therefore walk somewhat, but pain is quite often there to indicate that there is a problem and ignoring that can lead to much serious problems.

 

In the early mod, I actually did crawl one night for bit more than two hours because of a broken leg before I could find morphine. Let me tell you, playing at night, crawling through tons of zombies with flashlight/chemlights is...frikkin scary :)

[Greaves 131]

A Good example is the First vs. Third Person view.

The UltraHardcoreRealism fanatic don´t want the Third person gameplay and they don´t want that player have a choice to play it.

 

This is behavior is exemplary for many things in the entire suggestion Threads!

If they don´t want something then they try to destroy it, not a optional, only destroy.

No matter what, it can be optional but NO! They don´t want they try to kill idea´s.

 

Optional would be fine in my opinion. That way more people can have fun, without ruining it for others.