Fix (not remove) Third Person Perspective

[BwickFS39 9]

Agreed ultimately tpv should be fixed.

 

However for the meantime it needs to be completely removed until they can find  the solution.

Actually I feel this whole issue should wait for a long time, I feel we shouldn't even be discussing this until further along in the development process. There are more pressing issues to fix before anything else, like for instance, buildings that where not enter able in the mod that are now, you log out inside you will spawn below the structure and have to crawl your way out like a contortionist.

[taylorig@ntlworld.com 9]

I don't see the problem with 3PP at all. After all everyone had it, can use it so all is fair. Yes i know you can see over walls etc and that isn't "True to life". But lets just step back and take in to consideration that neither are Zombies and the main factor that this is a game.

 

Anyway i am one of those people that suffers really bad with motion sickness and this game makes me feel ill after a short period of time when i tried it in 1PP. So of course i play on 3PP enabled servers. But after that said i do go FP for very short periods of time when inside building looting. The rest of the time i HAVE to play in 3rd person.

 

Personally i think they should leave things as they are and have separate 1PP and 3PP servers. And if/when Admins get more control of their own servers then the choice is up to them when they get feedback from their main player base and what they prefer.

[Foulplay 9]

Well personally I feel it is fine the way it is now. I.e. letting the player base (the servers restrictions) choose which option.

To the hardcore players who want only 1st person, there exists servers which restrict you to 1st person. And the indeffierent players can join the normal servers which allow you to shift between the two.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is take the free market approach and let the player base decide. They will do so by joining the designated servers. If the hardcore 1st person guy thinks it is unfare that some play in 3rd person, he need only to join 1st person servers. And vice versa for the other segment. If one segment has higher demand than the other, the "free market" will act to correct it automatically. An increase in demand for one side or the other will be adjusted by increasing or decreasing the servers appropriatly.

 

By actually forcing devs to implement a specific mechanic, you are surley taking a side which will ultimatly aliente one segment over the other and probably result in a lose of player base like some one else mentioned.

 

Please excuse and spelling and grammer. English is not my first language.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Foulplay

[serenityrick 218]

Well personally I feel it is fine the way it is now. I.e. letting the player base (the servers restrictions) choose which option.

To the hardcore players who want only 1st person, there exists servers which restrict you to 1st person. And the indeffierent players can join the normal servers which allow you to shift between the two.

 

I guess what I am trying to say is take the free market approach and let the player base decide. They will do so by joining the designated servers. If the hardcore 1st person guy thinks it is unfare that some play in 3rd person, he need only to join 1st person servers. And vice versa for the other segment. If one segment has higher demand than the other, the "free market" will act to correct it automatically. An increase in demand for one side or the other will be adjusted by increasing or decreasing the servers appropriatly.

 

By actually forcing devs to implement a specific mechanic, you are surley taking a side which will ultimatly aliente one segment over the other and probably result in a lose of player base like some one else mentioned.

 

Please excuse and spelling and grammer. English is not my first language.

 

Except that's a poor solution as it fractures the player base. 

 

The best solution is from that video where you cannot see players unless your character can actually see it. It would obviously add development time but it's worth it. Then there would be no need for "hardcore" servers or separate hives. 

[Outlawled (DayZ) 27]

I just thought I'd stop by and leave the link to the video showcase of my ArmA 3 mod, The Fourth Wall. Everyone has been linking to that 2017 dev blog which briefly demonstrates my mod, which is cool and all, but I made a pretty long video showcase for The Fourth Wall itself which goes over the mod in detail.

 

The goal of The Fourth Wall is to leave all of the great things about third-person in the game (awareness of one's self and immediate surroundings) and remove any exploits that third-person might bring (such as looking over a wall that your character can't physically see over).

 

There are some problems when it comes to walking by fences, bushes, thin poles, etc. where units on the other side will flicker. Also, if you're behind a really thin object, it is possible that you will be able to see part of a unit when in first-person, but when you switch to third, they will be invisible because you can't see the right part of them (which is their head, or more specifically, their eye position).

 

These problems can break immersion, but any situation where these problems could become apparent is a situation where you should be in first-person.

 

There are also some problems with how units at range are affected by the mod, but I don't really feel like going into that right now. I talk about it toward the end of the video, though, if you are interested.

 

 

Skip to 3:40 if you don't want to watch the intro.

[floj 393]

it would help first person players if the Vicinity loot window worked better.

Could work...personally I'd suggest a simple tiptoe mechanic 'Q+E' or something similar. Could also be used to peek over low walls when crouched which seems to be what a lot of rooftop snipers want to do - I prefer as little HUD work as possible whilst playing

 

we have vehicles coming, and third person view helps driving them, specially when you go off road and on Helis which i also pilot on first person.

 

helmets/mask/glasses etc don't limit FOV like they would or should, like your backpack does.

I have no idea how much obscuration the mentioned mod can handle...but I see no reason why it wouldn't be able to load different overlays and use that to affect what's displayed. Possibly it could just use a reduced fov as a simplified technique. Would have to hear from the author...

 

I still don't see a problem with haveing first person servers and 3rd person server. Why force everyone into 1 thing, when you can give everyone what they like. Hard core mode should be 1st person only. Private servers will have plenty of first person only servers. I don't think you should force everyone into 1st person just cause you think its better. In the end its a game, it is meant to be fun for everyone not just a select few who think it should be done one way, when it can easily be done to make both sides happy. I like 1st person so what do I do. Simply go to a 1st person server.

As mentioned in the OP, this divides the playerbase (unnecessarily if the fix can be implemented) and it creates balance issues in terms of PvE content.

[floj 393]

I just thought I'd stop by and leave the link to the video showcase of my ArmA 3 mod, The Fourth Wall. Everyone has been linking to that 2017 dev blog which briefly demonstrates my mod, which is cool and all, but I made a pretty long video showcase for The Fourth Wall itself which goes over the mod in detail.

 

The goal of The Fourth Wall is to leave all of the great things about third-person in the game (awareness of one's self and immediate surroundings) and remove any exploits that third-person might bring (such as looking over a wall that your character can't physically see over).

 

There are some problems when it comes to walking by fences, bushes, thin poles, etc. where units on the other side will flicker. Also, if you're behind a really thin object, it is possible that you will be able to see part of a unit when in first-person, but when you switch to third, they will be invisible because you can't see the right part of them (which is their head, or more specifically, their eye position).

 

These problems can break immersion, but any situation where these problems could become apparent is a situation where you should be in first-person.

 

There are also some problems with how units at range are affected by the mod, but I don't really feel like going into that right now. I talk about it toward the end of the video, though, if you are interested.

 

 

Skip to 3:40 if you don't want to watch the intro.

 

 

GG - added a link to the vid in the OP. You mention that there were issues with how vehicles are coded that stopped you implementing this for driving as well...care to elaborate for the few people that would understand - not me personally, but I'm sure some that read the forums would be interested - maybe Rocket himself ;)

 

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

I'm a little disappointed the "removal" thread was locked because some people couldn't discuss that topic in a civilized manner. It sets a bad example for some people, it shows them that if they put up enough of a fuss and troll enough people into getting pissed off at them, they can get the whole discussion closed. I'm inclined to think that was part of their objective by constantly posting in that thread while having nothing new to add, and never finishing the discussions they start.

I don't think moving the discussion over to this one was the right thing to do, because this discussion has nothing for me.(or others pushing for tpv removal.) Even if third person is fixed, I'm still not using it. So, it doesn't matter to me how it gets fixed.

Edited January 7, 2014 by bad_mojo

[Outlawled (DayZ) 27]

GG - added a link to the vid in the OP. You mention that there were issues with how vehicles are coded that stopped you implementing this for driving as well...care to elaborate for the few people that would understand - not me personally, but I'm sure some that read the forums would be interested - maybe Rocket himself ;)

 

There's no problem implementing the LOS system with vehicles other than the fact that if you're in a tank, your LOS will be cut off in every direction, so everyone will be invisible when you're in third-person. The problem I mentioned in the video is with disabling third-person in vehicles via a loop that uses a scripting command (which only works properly on infantry units, unfortunately) to switch the player's perspective. I don't think this is really relevant, though, because I'm sure that if Rocket wanted to disable third-person in vehicles, he wouldn't need to script it.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Outlawled

[libertine 351]

I think the "forth wall" idea is really great. As long at they evaluate LOS from the proper eye area. Maybe two of a series of vertically oriented points on the body must be seen together or something to prevent seeing the full body through a tiny slit in a wall.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Thane

[dystopeon 46]

tl;dr - "Keep it the same, never let the two player types mix and balance it the same for both modes"

 

that would entail balancing the entire game twice. read this excellent entry in the proper thread. 

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/157661-third-person-view-removal-from-sa-discussion/page-65#entry1638060

[Imbalanxd 59]

This kind of a system is always suggested for third person perspectives, and its just plain wrong.

 

You cannot have things be invisible one moment and suddenly pop into existence the next. Its a terrible system for new players to have to figure out, and it destroys any sense of immersion.

[Sensemann 145]

 

I would like to see the 'line-of-sight' thing working too, I think that could be a good solution/third alternative.

 

 

 

That would be amazing! 

 

In the mod, I often played in 3rd person when I was alone and running over big fields, just to see my avatar. Inside cities I usually played 1st person because whenever being forced into a combat situation, I found the switch to aiming in first person coming from a 3rd person view to be awful. It also made me feel more familiar with other 1st person shooters. However, I got killed that way waaaaaaay too often because other people were using 3rd person to look around corners and so, knowing my path or the moment I come into sight.

 

In DayZ SA, I play on 1st person servers only, because it simply is better. However, I understand that many players (me included actually), like to see their avatar in 3rd person, for example to see how their current clothes look and how camo bends into the environment.

If it is possible for the developers to allow 3rd person view without showing loot and players out of line of sight, then I would open a bottle of champagne...

[gibonez 3633]

I'm a little disappointed the "removal" thread was locked because some people couldn't discuss that topic in a civilized manner.

 

Yea same here wish the offensive post were just deleted and that glorious thread would continue.

[The_Man 393]

The solution to third person already exists

 

 

Someone already linked to this but i linked to the exact point in one of the videos where it shows up. 

 

If they can implement this for free then they NEED to do it. If this is going to cost a pretty penny to show up in DayZ then I guess they will need to discuss if it is worth it. 

[Imbalanxd 59]

The solution to third person already exists

 

 

Someone already linked to this but i linked to the exact point in one of the videos where it shows up. 

 

If they can implement this for free then they NEED to do it. If this is going to cost a pretty penny to show up in DayZ then I guess they will need to discuss if it is worth it. 

 

That is so bad

[The_Man 393]

That is so bad

 

Why? 

[Imbalanxd 59]

Why? 

 

They're augmenting vision in a pretty major way without clearly informing the player that its happening. They are providing clear sight of an area and then removing visibility of key objects.

That's just bad design. Its like randomly switching which direction stereo sound comes from. You don't mess with the base senses without making it pretty damn clear to the player that you are doing it.

[The_Man 393]

They're augmenting vision in a pretty major way without clearly informing the player that its happening. They are providing clear sight of an area and then removing visibility of key objects.

That's just bad design. Its like randomly switching which direction stereo sound comes from. You don't mess with the base senses without making it pretty damn clear to the player that you are doing it.

 

It fixes a fundamental problem. You are right that it does introduce another issue that causes confusion. I suppose the solution would be to remind players that key objects not visible in first person would not appear in third person. A simple text reminder when going into third person should do the trick no? Just spit balling but thank you for the clarification. 

[belphegor_goatzombie 100]

I don't see the problem with 3PP at all. After all everyone had it, can use it so all is fair.

 

+1

[Kinesis 15]

I'll go first person only when RV gets optimized and the arma mechanics become fluid.

 

lol Sorry I agree completely that first person mode should be the only one in a game like DayZ being a simulator.

 

But frankly Arma has always suffered from clunky movement and executions, and first person never served a purpose beyond flying, driving, and shooting. Walking is simply too "weird" and there's the other problem.

It's not just me and we all know this very well at this point, RV sucks and I mean REALLY sucks. It looks great and does what we want it to well considering other engines but it's not friendly to anybody's rig.

I don't want to get into the specifics unless someone wants me to, otherwise I'll simply say, my rig is over the recommended which untimately means nothing but I should theoretically be playing the game at 60 fps constantly and never dipping while at atleased low settings, instead we get this.

 

Woods:50fps

Towns:35fps

Cities:20fps

 

Just enough to piss you off and feel awkward but not enough to make the game unplayable. Once this is seriously addressed I'll play in first person all the time and I'd honestly prefer it but I use third person on Arma, Arma 2, Arma 3 and will on DayZ.

I don't think it's going to happen soon though since after 7-8 years nothing has changed.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Kinesis

[hogscraper 328]

I've been playing in the Arma engine for a while now and will always pass on 1pp servers every time. The devs made the game to be played a certain way and I enjoy the benefits and the feel of 3rd person perspective. Why do people keep crying for the devs to force a certain play style on everyone? They are already working on hardcore servers where 1pp will likely be enforced. Wait for that and only play there. Or wait for private hives and find one that has 1pp only setup on it.   

[cataclyststa 8]

3rd person itself isn't realistic. So why complain about it's lack of realism?

[floj 393]

I've been playing in the Arma engine for a while now and will always pass on 1pp servers every time. The devs made the game to be played a certain way and I enjoy the benefits and the feel of 3rd person perspective. Why do people keep crying for the devs to force a certain play style on everyone? They are already working on hardcore servers where 1pp will likely be enforced. Wait for that and only play there. Or wait for private hives and find one that has 1pp only setup on it.   

As mentioned in OP (and highlighted above once already):

It creates balance issues. It makes looting and observing ahead easier and so changes player movement through the map. As a result EVERYTHING has to be rebalanced independently for each server type, from health and blood mechanics, hunger and thirst, loot spawning. (Good) 1PP players move slower through the map because they have to survey the area ahead - this changes everything when you have a water metre ticking down.

 

At this point, it really does seem that 3PP players just like the crutch of xray vision and are unwilling to even consider how it's lowering the quality of the experience for themselves.

 

As I also said in OP, disregarding pvp, imagine playing the best survival horror games/series of the last few decades (Amnesia, Dead Space, Resident Evil, Silent Hill imo) with a freecam that can see what's coming around every corner - Res Evil has a tightly bound shoulder cam (and used to have completely fixed cams at awkward angles looking at you from the corner of rooms etc), Alan Wake and Silent Hill have flashlight mechanics to restrict viewable areas. Amnesia had a restricted view, the sanity mechanic, darkness AND had invisible enemies just to put the willies up you.

 

Horror is about suspense and tension over the unknown. Remove the unknown and you remove the horror. This is supposed to be a survival HORROR game.

 

If the 3PP players want a diluted experience of what the devs intended, then sure they should keep arguing for the ability to see the unknowable. They should also ask for a warning before anything scary happens when they go to the cinema.

 

EDIT: Also honourable mentions to the Cradle and Ravenholme levels in Thief: Deadly Shadows and HL2 - these two highlight level and sound design rather than mechanics though, although both have very dark lighting affecting your vision, which most people running around Chernarus don't experience.

Edited January 7, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[Ghostflux 100]

I think the major problem with first person in ARMA 2/3 is that it's extremely clumsy, you easily get disoriented while this would never happen in real life due to the field of view that you have in real life. You can increase the field of view, but this barely if ever scales well with object size. Objects look warped, and the render cost to render a higher field of view is also substancial. I don't want third person, but I feel very caged in when I can't use it. In ARMA 3 this is annoying, but atleast the freedom of leaning exactly how you want it is great. But in DayZ this is just doesn't work very well due to the negative mouse acceleration. Which makes it absolutely horrid to navigate in close quarters.

 

I honestly would like it they focus less on adding confusing mechanisms to prevent third person cheating, but rather on making first person not a total pain to use. Because then you can just disable 3rd person like many servers already do.