Possible solution to KOS, hear me out

[jan3sobieski 32]

I'm afraid this game is going to die quickly because casuals will see no point in playing and the hardcore players, the "bandits" that shoot everything on sight will eventually run out of fresh meat and only hunt each other. And eventually they'll get bored of it and quit too. If all you want is to kill other players you should go play other games more suited for this than this one. 

 

I hear the other side of the story too though. I get the point. It's a simulator game, you should have free will whether you want to play friendly or not. I don't know if this is possible but wouldn't it be just easier to have someone "declare" at the character creation screen whether or not you will play a survivor or a bandit? 

 

Then: 

• If I'm playing a survivor and kill another survivor, my karma (or conscience, or whatever) goes down eventually killing me. (like if I kill 3-4 survivors)
• If I'm playing a survivor and kill a bandit my karma stays the same (or if I have killed a survivor by a mistake, killing a bunch of bandits would slowly, VERY slowly grow my karma back, sort of as redemption)
• If I'm playing a bandit, I don't have karma BUT, whenever a survivor comes within, I dunno 500m radius of me, they'll get a warning, a message that "bandits are roaming the area." This would give survivors a chance to run the hell away and go somewhere else.
• If I'm playing a bandit and enter an area where there are other bandits or survivors, I don't get that same warning. No change there from current game.
• Also, and this is tricky (but necessary), survivors would not be able to loot anyone, other survivors or bandits. They would only be able to find loot or take loot that was given/dropped for them from other survivors (not bandits). This would be to prevent "false" survivors. Ones that choose to play as a survivor yet go on a rampage to kill everyone. (Kill a couple survivors then mitigate karma by killing bandits) [edit] this might not be necessary as the karma system would be enough to discourage killing more than, let's say 4 survivors, however, there would have to be a way to make sure "false" survivors don't go on a rampage killing bandits with a 500m warning advantage. Honestly though, I'm for the original idea. I don't care about looting others, I'm a survivor, I like to find things on my own and share with others if they need my help.

 

The biggest issue in my opinion is that when an encounter happens (when 2 ppl run into each other) there is really not a lot of time for decisions, talking or trying to figure out if the other one is friendly or not. That's why most ppl just kos. This system would eliminate the need to guess. Also, bandits would most likely stay near the coastal, military, airstrip areas. If you're a survivor and want to risk getting better weapons and such and want to go there, you do so at your own risk. [edit] I should edit this, the system wouldn't completely eliminate guessing but it would help

 

A tiny piece of this is somehow already implemented, it just doesn't work since to hear the bandit's heartbeat you really have to get close to him which by that time is too late anyways. I think the range is like 10-20m. That's completely useless.

 

I don't see how it would take away from the game at all. Bandits can still hunt their prey it's just that this way the prey will know it's being hunted. Wouldn't that give bandits a bigger adrenaline rush and sense of accomplishment knowing they got to someone who already knew they were coming?

 

What do you think?

Edited December 31, 2013 by jan3sobieski

[creature 1189]

I'm afraid this game is going to die quickly because casuals will see no point in playing and the hardcore players, the "bandits" that shoot everything on sight will eventually run out of fresh meat and only hunt each other. And eventually they'll get bored of it and quit too. 

<snip>

What do you think?

 

Jeez, I hope so. Then we can get on with the game.  :beans:

[jbrodjeski@yahoo.com 16]

KoS does not need to be fixed.  Welcome to your first sandbox game.  One of the only true sandbox games made in this pathetic time for the gaming industry.

 

DayZ mod has been going strong since it released long before the standalone, don't worry about it dying anytime soon.  Implementing your idea will make this game nothing more than what is already out on the market, shit.  The reason it is so popular is the great gaming experience that FREEDOM provides.  Take that away and the game is a glitchy peace of crap.

 

The one and ONLY thing dayz has going for it is the true freedom to play anyway you want.  It would completely ruin the excitement of the game to do anything to KOS.

 

Also rocket has explained many times before he is doing nothing to take away the freedom for players to kill whoever they want.

 

And god bless rocket for his hardcore attitude and for creating one of the most anticipated games of the year.  What did he make 5 million dollars the first weekend?  He wouldn't have touched that amount if the game had restrictions.

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

No. Survivors wouldn't be able to loot anyone? Ridiculous. Morality is not black and white. What if you find a dead body? This system is so overly complex and gimmicky, it would seriously detract from the game. I don't want messages telling me that other players are within 500m of me, that basically takes away their ability to sneak up on other players undetected. Besides, you seem to be forgetting that this game is still in Alpha and therefore not all the content is final. There's going to be zombies, vehicles, base building, all features which inherently provide different means of cooperation and combat. Everyone will quit the game? Oh thank you, wise Nostradamus! Even though the mod has already been out for over a year and that didn't get abandoned, so anecdotal evidence would prove you wrong.

[genaknosc 9]

Welcome to the apocalypse. Leave your kiddie shoes at the door.

 

Seriously, what makes this game so intense (and therefore thrilling) is knowing that every other player is as nervous as I am when I'm foraging around town. Perma-death makes this so. I've never gotten such visceral feelings while playing a game before. Well, maybe from Amnesia - but this blows that out of the water because in DayZ the monster is actually - another survivor. (Unless they are your friend, but sometimes your friends become enemies too. Such is life during the apocalypse.)

 

If there was no risk of danger (and hence no reason to get excited or scared) then this game would have been boring after the first couple of hours.

 

Spending an hour running around look for cans of beans and ammo is kind of mundane. But the fear of running into another survivor who might want to steal my stuff, and the sense of accomplishment of managing to stay alive for more than a week - makes it all worthwhile - especially when it can all be snatch away with a bullet to the back at any moment.

 

The reason DayZ [Alpha] made so much money the first week, is because those experiences are what it offers. 

 

People say they hate KOS, when ironically fear of being killed-on-site is what makes the game so exciting.

[BelMarduk 169]

ummmm, no. I 'accepted' the humanity system in the MOD at first, then grew to enjoy the system. The SA doesnt really 'support' per se that system. Kill a bunch of survivors and you get a 'bandit' skin, (the 'hero' skin for killing zeds and 'helping' anybody), but with all the character customization, its just unfeasible... Punishing players for partaking in the PvP aspect of the game is just silly. DayZ is a unique mixture of PvP and PvE. That's the beauty of what the core experience is all about. Don't wanna be bandit bait? stay clear of everyone.

In all honesty outside of when I just play silly and run around looking for my lost marshmallows (yup is really fun to get other players reactions to a guy/gal running around in skivvies yelling for Henry to bring back marshmallows...) sure 75% or better ends in KoS but sometimes you get to hear maniacal laughter.

The only 'acceptable' punishment that a bandit should receive in game is punishment brought down by you...

Sandbox play is just that, no teachers allowed in the sandbox!

[Guest]

.

Edited September 13, 2022 by Guest

[Abi (DayZ) 68]

No, these suggestions are ridiculous.

[jan3sobieski 32]

KoS does not need to be fixed.  Welcome to your first sandbox game.  One of the only true sandbox games made in this pathetic time for the gaming industry.

 

DayZ mod has been going strong since it released long before the standalone, don't worry about it dying anytime soon.  Implementing your idea will make this game nothing more than what is already out on the market, shit.  The reason it is so popular is the great gaming experience that FREEDOM provides.  Take that away and the game is a glitchy peace of crap.

 

The one and ONLY thing dayz has going for it is the true freedom to play anyway you want.  It would completely ruin the excitement of the game to do anything to KOS.

 

Also rocket has explained many times before he is doing nothing to take away the freedom for players to kill whoever they want.

 

And god bless rocket for his hardcore attitude and for creating one of the most anticipated games of the year.  What did he make 5 million dollars the first weekend?  He wouldn't have touched that amount if the game had restrictions.

 

Did you even read everything I wrote?

 

I've played many sandbox games and I don't see how implementing any of these things would take away from the experience. 

 

Sandbox game doesn't just mean you can do whatever the hell you want. It's whatever the hell you want with some boundaries. You can't for example take an empty bottle, add gas to it, throw in a rug and call it a Molotov. You can't take a baseball bat and duck tape a knife at the end of it and swing it around. Those are limitations of the game. So can this be and might I add, it would have almost no change on the sandbox experience. 

 

You're saying it would RUIN the excitement of the game? For whom? Nothing would change on the bandit's side except for the fact that their prey would know they're potentially coming for them. That's it! No other change! Which again, might I add IS ALREADY IN THE GAME, just implemented slightly differently.

[spangley_special 19]

Am I the only one who doesn't think KoS needs fixing?

 

(FYI I don't KoS btw)

[gclark39 2]

I'm afraid this game is going to die quickly because casuals will see no point in playing and the hardcore players, the "bandits" that shoot everything on sight will eventually run out of fresh meat and only hunt each other. And eventually they'll get bored of it and quit too. If all you want is to kill other players you should go play other games more suited for this than this one. 

 

I hear the other side of the story too though. I get the point. It's a simulator game, you should have free will whether you want to play friendly or not. I don't know if this is possible but wouldn't it be just easier to have someone "declare" at the character creation screen whether or not you will play a survivor or a bandit? 

 

Then: 

• If I'm playing a survivor and kill another survivor, my karma (or conscience, or whatever) goes down eventually killing me. (like if I kill 3-4 survivors)
• If I'm playing a survivor and kill a bandit my karma stays the same (or if I have killed a survivor by a mistake, killing a bunch of bandits would slowly, VERY slowly grow my karma back, sort of as redemption)
• If I'm playing a bandit, I don't have karma BUT, whenever a survivor comes within, I dunno 500m radius of me, they'll get a warning, a message that "bandits are roaming the area." This would give survivors a chance to run the hell away and go somewhere else.
• If I'm playing a bandit and enter an area where there are other bandits or survivors, I don't get that same warning. No change there from current game.
• Also, and this is tricky (but necessary), survivors would not be able to loot anyone, other survivors or bandits. They would only be able to find loot or take loot that was given/dropped for them from other survivors (not bandits). This would be to prevent "false" survivors. Ones that choose to play as a survivor yet go on a rampage to kill everyone. (Kill a couple survivors then mitigate karma by killing bandits)

 

The biggest issue in my opinion is that when an encounter happens (when 2 ppl run into each other) there is really not a lot of time for decisions, talking or trying to figure out if the other one is friendly or not. That's why most ppl just kos. This system would eliminate the need to guess. Also, bandits would most likely stay near the coastal, military, airstrip areas. If you're a survivor and want to risk getting better weapons and such and want to go there, you do so at your own risk.

 

A tiny piece of this is somehow already implemented, it just doesn't work since to hear the bandit's heartbeat you really have to get close to him which by that time is too late anyways. I think the range is like 10-20m. That's completely useless.

 

I don't see how it would take away from the game at all. Bandits can still hunt their prey it's just that this way the prey will know it's being hunted. Wouldn't that give bandits a bigger adrenaline rush and sense of accomplishment knowing they got to someone who already knew they were coming?

 

What do you think?

 

These are horrible ideas. If you don't like K.O.S., then DayZ isn't for you.

[Ubernaut 297]

The uncertainty you experience during an encounter with a random player is one of the unique facets of DayZ. It's been a thing since the beginning, and the game has remained popular regardless. I've suggested other ways KoS might be mitigated, but everyone seems to agree that things are mostly okay the way they are. New players do not seem to be being deterred. If you're really trying to find friendlies to travel with, organize a group in advance outside of the game world.

[jan3sobieski 32]

No. Survivors wouldn't be able to loot anyone? Ridiculous. Morality is not black and white. What if you find a dead body? This system is so overly complex and gimmicky, it would seriously detract from the game. I don't want messages telling me that other players are within 500m of me, that basically takes away their ability to sneak up on other players undetected. Besides, you seem to be forgetting that this game is still in Alpha and therefore not all the content is final. There's going to be zombies, vehicles, base building, all features which inherently provide different means of cooperation and combat. Everyone will quit the game? Oh thank you, wise Nostradamus! Even though the mod has already been out for over a year and that didn't get abandoned, so anecdotal evidence would prove you wrong.

 

The looting part for survivors is open for debate, as are other parts. It's just one way to prevent survivors from lying that they're survivors.

[jan3sobieski 32]

These are horrible ideas. If you don't like K.O.S., then DayZ isn't for you.

 

Fair enough, thanks for reading.

[Isaaq 72]

I don't think the idea really suits DayZ very well...

 

Though I could see some form of sanity being implementable...

[jan3sobieski 32]

I just read all your posts, thanks for all responses. 

 

Feels to me like no-one actually read anything i wrote though. This system barely changes anything. If you choose to play a bad guy, nothing changes for you except the fact that other players (and only survivors) would know you're close. This feature is already in the game, so obviously the designer thought it was a good idea. The only thing this changes is the range, that's it. 

 

The only thing that it changes for a good guy (if this is who you chose to be) is that it would be easier to recognize other good guys and yet you'd still have the option to kill them if you chose to. Nothing is preventing you from doing that.

Edited December 30, 2013 by jan3sobieski

[G-lens 7]

the game is realistic.... so why don't the people who hate KOS or bandits just go play Fallout or some other game.  This game should not change for people who are sick of getting killed.

 

Or you could just join a hero group... 

[Aussie Bogan 350]

Jeez, I hope so. Then we can get on with the game.  :beans:

 

^^ LOL

 

Why is there a solution needed for KOS, Could you imagine how boring the game would be without KOS???

 

Hell i know a solution to KOS lets turn on "Friendly fire" So no one can kill any one... (Carebear solution)   Then watch how fast this game will die ..

[blacklabel79 949]

 

KoS does not need to be fixed.  Welcome to your first sandbox game.  One of the only true sandbox games made in this pathetic time for the gaming industry.

indeed.

 

best example..red orchestra 2.

 

Had a HARDCORE dedicated to the bone community since the mod days.

 

 

So what happens ? instead of going to refine what made RO good they water it down to appeal to the "masses".

 

Almost ALL the veterans left. The fucking game was almost perfect.

 

Now there is 3 gamemodes..Action - wich is shit wich crosshairs and less damage

 

realism - wich is ok  but sill not as hardcore. they added some silly level progression NOONE EVER ASKED FOR..fuck it...and other mechanics that..are a good idea on paper but tkae away from what made ro1 so fucking good. ( oh and the darkest hour mod, ofc )

 

and

 

"classsic" - wich is a BAD ro1. ( and so many good people left this game behind..and the newbies still struggle with the level of teamwork that is employed when veterans enter the servers )

 

no just dont make this mistake, dont water it down..instead..MAKE IF FUCKING HARDER !

 

dont ever seperate "newbies" and "hardcore" never ever..your formula works at its core..just build...

Edited December 31, 2013 by {Core}BlackLabel

[NagsterTheGangster 388]

I dunno, im not into the idea of worrying if I can loot my reward after killing someone.

[colinm9991 196]

Oh, it's one of these threads again.

[G-lens 7]

indeed.

 

best example..red orchestra 2.

 

Had a HARDCORE dedicated to the bone community since the mod days.

 

 

So what happens ? instead of going to refine what made RO good they water it down to appeal to the "masses".

 

Almost ALL the veterans left. The fucking game was almost perfect.

 

Now there is 3 gamemodes..Action - wich is shit wich crosshairs and less damage

 

realism - wich is ok  but sill not as hardcore. they added some silly level progression NOONE EVER ASKED FOR..fuck it...and other mechanics that..are a good idea on paper but tkae away from what made ro1 so fucking good. ( oh and the darkest hour mod, ofc )

 

and

 

"classsic" - wich is a BAD ro1. ( and so many good people left this game behind..and the newbies still struggle with the level of teamwork that is employed when veterans enter the servers )

 

no just dont make this mistake, dont water it down..instead..MAKE IF FUCKING HARDER !

 

dont ever seperate "newbies" and "hardcore" never ever..your formula works at its core..just build...

AMEN BROTHA!!! TURN THIS B**** UP TO ELEVEN!!!!

[Shadyfizzle 80]

KoS isn't a "problem" its not even a built in game-play mechanic, its a social tendency that evolved from the freedom given to us in the game. If you're going to complain about KoS or even consider it a problem you might as well ask Rocket to get rid of the zombies

Edited December 31, 2013 by Shadyfizzle

[maccollo (DayZ) 7]

So this has a number of major flaws

1: If you can't tell bandits from survivors based on their appearence that means survivors will KoS as soon as that warning appears. I would kill everyone I run into, including other survivors, which would bring me closer to death by sadness. Even if you can tell them apart it might be very hard to to tell at a distance, so I might still shoot another survivor.

2: New type of grefing: play as a survivor and force the hand of other survivors by attacking them. They have to kill you or they die. When they kill you they get closer to death by sadness.

3: If you can tell bandits from survivors, then all survivor encounters are gonna be almost completely void of uncertainty and tension because you know the survivor you ran into most likely wont do anything.
    This goes against the essence of this game in every way.

4: None of this actually addresses the real problem in the game, which is not people killing on sight, but the reasons they do so. 
   There are two main reasons, one being benefit vs risk: There is near 0 benefit from cooperating with a stranger vs a fairly high probability that this player might kill you if you approach him/her.

   The other reason is simply boredom, which is also related to the first reason. If surviving was actually a challenge people wouldn't be bored as easily.

[raynor009 204]

KOS is not some bug or feature that requires fixing. Its PVP if you can't deal with PVP then go play Hello Kitty. Its freedom of choice. Anyone can do whatever want to survive even if that means KOS.

Edited December 31, 2013 by raynor009