Third person view removal from SA discussion

[gibonez 3633]

Side & global chat were part of the game.

Squads were part of the game.

3d markers were part of the game.

3d crosshairs are part of the game.

Interaction system is part of the game.

Map markers were part of the game.

Tanks were part of the game.

 

DayZ doesn't have to maintain all the parts of the original Arma. Your argument is invalid.

 

 

Absolutely if something has to be removed in order to make the game better then it needs to be done even if some people do not like it.

[dallas 5195]

Side & global chat were part of the game.

Squads were part of the game.

3d markers were part of the game.

3d crosshairs are part of the game.

Interaction system is part of the game.

Map markers were part of the game.

Tanks were part of the game.

 

DayZ doesn't have to maintain all the parts of the original Arma. Your argument is invalid.

That's why I also mentioned the DayZ mod and the standalone. See almost half a million players have already bought the standalone expecting third person view to be part of the game, it's even featured on the screenshots on the sales page. No tanks are featured on the sales page, no tanks are indeed expected to be part of DayZ, but third person view was a big part of the mod and it was featured in the standalone dev blogs.

 

The dev team simply can't remove such a prominent feature after launch and they would ever give it any serious consideration. The bottom line, which you refuse to acknowledge is that BI don't have a problem with third person view, they think it belongs in their games, since 2001 and up to now, both in ArmA 3 and the DayZ Standalone. They even created a solution for it back in 2001, which have also been continued throughout their games. The individual admins always have the choice to enforce first person view, if they so desire.

 

And looking at the supply of servers in DayZ commander, they by and large decided not to enforce it, probably because first person players weren't very loyal to first person servers and instead of building up popular first person servers, they simply filtered server based on populations and joined full third person servers.

 

I understand you want to argue against what I'm saying, but this is simply reality.

 

All this, is moot.

 

Edited December 24, 2013 by Dallas

[Heiduk 265]

Meh, I probably can't add anything I haven't already written in the last 100 page thread on this topic.

 

I'm just glad Bohemia decided to release the Alpha as yet another 3rd person deathmatch game rather than the original zombie survival game it may ultimately become. It made my decision to not buy the Alpha easy and now I get to spend more time with my family this Christmas.  :)

Edited December 24, 2013 by Heiduk

[Kipale 78]

Third person needs to go.

[dystopeon 46]

I totally agree that servers shouldn't be separated in ANY way, that is what destroyed the mod completely. I don't care wich solution will be implemented here (because i think 3d person view isn't that of a huge advantage) but for the love of god don't start to separate the servers again.

100% agree, just remove 3DP altogether = problem solved. There's only like 50 retards on the forum who don't get it anyway.

[dystopeon 46]

"The bottom line, which you refuse to acknowledge is that BI don't have a problem with third person view, they think it belongs in their games, since 2001 and up to now, both in ArmA 3 and the DayZ Standalone."

shit, you must work @ BI? it's OFFICIAL people! please refer to above post - you made the top 50 retards.

[Mao Zedong 48]

I don't know why everyone is calling people who prefer third person an "idiot" or "retard" ... it's their preference. It's a matter of opinion. For whatever reason, they're enjoying it... I don't understand how that makes them an idiot.. 

Get over yourselves with the name calling. It's a video game people.. ya know.. something you do for fun.. 

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Although there are some good points here removing third-person, people here do not seem to be grasping the problem;

 

- Players (including myself, before purchasing a new monitor with better screen size) do experience nausea while playing, even with view-bobbing completely removed. That is a fact, not an opinion. It is definitely something that the mods need to consider, because it actually would drive players away (if they do not want to be sick while playing, that is)

 

- Yes, you can see your character in the inventory screen. However, running in first-person often gets boring and something about actually seeing your character while running and not doing an important task does help for people who get bored easily.

 

- Yes, it can be used to exploit, but in the instance that someone uses it to shoot around cover they are revealing their location. If any of these so-called hardcore, manly players weren't just eating their own words, then they would have been using good enough tactics to not expose themselves and keeping themselves in cover, even at the cost of time. 

 

- I am for giving people the choice to play on servers with either, or both enabled. Of course, it does not guarantee that servers with only first-person (or only third-person) will be heavily filled, but that is the consequence of having a majority who prefers one thing over another. Forcing people to follow a specific gameplay feature does not make anyone who already uses it happy, and it may not completely stop people from playing but it will get so many people to complain.

 

 

In the end, I think the mods need to stop these kinds of threads, all they end up doing is flying in circles where it ends up becoming one side's feelings versus the other side's feelings. It isn't up to either side to decide what the devs get to force us to do (or not do, for that matter).

 

In any case, just shut the fuck up. Nothing has been said that hasn't been said before.

[Gator Biggs 22]

Third person needs to go.

 

Can't help but wonder how much the rate of KOS'ing would drop if people wern't able to see around bends, over walls, shelves etc.

[thedogfoodyayho 295]

Although there are some good points here removing third-person, people here do not seem to be grasping the problem;

 

- Players (including myself, before purchasing a new monitor with better screen size) do experience nausea while playing, even with view-bobbing completely removed. That is a fact, not an opinion. It is definitely something that the mods need to consider, because it actually would drive players away (if they do not want to be sick while playing, that is)

 

- Yes, you can see your character in the inventory screen. However, running in first-person often gets boring and something about actually seeing your character while running and not doing an important task does help for people who get bored easily.

 

- Yes, it can be used to exploit, but in the instance that someone uses it to shoot around cover they are revealing their location. If any of these so-called hardcore, manly players weren't just eating their own words, then they would have been using good enough tactics to not expose themselves and keeping themselves in cover, even at the cost of time. 

 

- I am for giving people the choice to play on servers with either, or both enabled. Of course, it does not guarantee that servers with only first-person (or only third-person) will be heavily filled, but that is the consequence of having a majority who prefers one thing over another. Forcing people to follow a specific gameplay feature does not make anyone who already uses it happy, and it may not completely stop people from playing but it will get so many people to complain.

 

 

In the end, I think the mods need to stop these kinds of threads, all they end up doing is flying in circles where it ends up becoming one side's feelings versus the other side's feelings. It isn't up to either side to decide what the devs get to force us to do (or not do, for that matter).

 

In any case, just shut the fuck up. Nothing has been said that hasn't been said before.

This

[thedogfoodyayho 295]

Can't help but wonder how much the rate of KOS'ing would drop if people wern't able to see around bends, over walls, shelves etc.

It would increase, because friendly players would be surprised when someone comes around a shelf. Thats what %50 of close range pvp is. If i know someone is on the other side of said shelf, i will either leave or alert them if they look friendly, or i know them.

[gibonez 3633]

It would increase, because friendly players would be surprised when someone comes around a shelf. Thats what %50 of close range pvp is. If i know someone is on the other side of said shelf, i will either leave or alert them if they look friendly, or i know them.

 

 

Third person views removal will not increase or decrease kos at all it will remain the same people who kos all time will continue to do so.

 

Only difference is now that other player or yourself cant cheat by peeking around corners before actually committing the shot.

[Gator Biggs 22]

It would increase, because friendly players would be surprised when someone comes around a shelf. Thats what %50 of close range pvp is. If i know someone is on the other side of said shelf, i will either leave or alert them if they look friendly, or i know them.

 

It's only fair that would happen, if you ran into someone like that. What's not fair however is watching someone over said shelf and having the time to decide wether or not to engage, since you have no right to know if they are there. The other 50% is watching other players unfairly from behind cover and waiting until you have the drop on them.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

Who cares if the player base is separated? What is the problem? As long as enough servers are full, I could care les if I play with "half" the player base or all players, I can only encounter 50 of them on any given server anyway. I could understand your concern of separating the player base if the base was only 50 players to begin with.

exactly... its still # number of players ALL still playing SA..

 

like u said ur only able to play with a super tiny portion on any given night anyways..

[Gerandar 212]

a lot of you people keep saying this game is a simulation game when it isn't, according to the devs its "DayZ is a gritty, authentic, open-world survival horror hybrid-MMO game" no where in the description of the game is there the words "Survival simulation" or Survival Simulator"

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

All this, is moot.

 

I never stated otherwise. I just wanted to reply to your dismissal of the whole notion of removing it, based on the history of it being in games made on this engine. With DayZ BI has taken a left turn, I don't think it's fair to throw out discussion of things like this.

 

I didn't make any statement that they are going to remove third person view. So don't go off on me about it, I've had that debate a million times over, it never amounts to anything constructive. Mainly because people like you point to it's existence and refuse to even entertain the notion of a game without it. It's like if you let your guard down and discuss that possibility, you'll lose and they'll do it tomorrow.

[Nihilum 209]

Third person views removal will not increase or decrease kos at all it will remain the same people who kos all time will continue to do so.

 

Only difference is now that other player or yourself cant cheat by peeking around corners before actually committing the shot.

Would the hell too.

I have 300+ rounds and my m4 at the ready when looting. If you surprise me, I will fill you full of holes thinking:

A ) You're a zombie. They're bad.

B ) You're some douchnozzle about to axe me in the back.

For as many people who you think exploit 3rd person to gain an advantage in combat, just as many use it to avoid combat, like myself.

Also, you're more likely to be robbed if the would be robber feels he can get the drop, rather than shot due to the abundance of unknown factors he's going through.

 

Edited December 24, 2013 by Nihilum

[Batbard 9]

My stance on 3rd person is the same as it is in standard ArmA: it gives too much awareness in comparison to real life, whereas first person doesn't give enough. I can't stop you from doing the ol' peeky deeky around the nearest corner, but it does make you a bit of a douche.

 

For anyone who played the abortion that was Rainbow Six Vegas, it gives the same problem here as it does there - being the one able to peek out from the corner has literally no disadvantage, and the one advancing on the corner has all of them. This is not how it works in reality, try to use first person when peeking so the guy you're stalking/being stalked by has a fair shot.

[realitycompl3x 3]

Separate hives.

 

 

Anyway, I still believe third person makes its far harder for bandits to get the jump on you which makes it easier for you but harder for them.

 

The flipside of the coin, it makes it easier for bandits to get a drop on people who refuse to use third.

 

 

edit:  Lots of ideas and solutions have been proposed for this.  I strongly suggest everyone search for the various threads and read them for yourselves.  It'll help progress the debate.

 

How does it make it harder? Sitting up on a roof in 3rd gives you a hell of a jump on anyone.

 

 

If we must have 3rd person because of babbies, seperate hives is fine with me I guess.

The game would be better with out that community anyways. They can go back to playing Minecraft after daycare is over.

 

Third person is fine. If you give me a game with impeccable sound that lets me hear other people breathing and footsteps, as well as more effective leans and some way to simulate peripheral vision, I'll concede 3rd person removal.

 

Until then, nah. Third person compensates for the lack of other senses. FPS view is not realistic to human perception. I'm not weirdly limited to viewing a box in front of me in real life. Sure, I can't float above myself either but if someone's running down the street on the other side of a wall to me, I can gauge their relative position and speed just based on sound. The game needs some way to recreate this perception, and right now 3rd person view is the best you can do.

ARMA 2,3 sound is about the best you are gonna get.

Edited December 24, 2013 by realitycompl3x

[gibonez 3633]

My stance on 3rd person is the same as it is in standard ArmA: it gives too much awareness in comparison to real life, whereas first person doesn't give enough. I can't stop you from doing the ol' peeky deeky around the nearest corner, but it does make you a bit of a douche.

 

For anyone who played the abortion that was Rainbow Six Vegas, it gives the same problem here as it does there - being the one able to peek out from the corner has literally no disadvantage, and the one advancing on the corner has all of them. This is not how it works in reality, try to use first person when peeking so the guy you're stalking/being stalked by has a fair shot.

 

 

Theres an fov slider now crank up the fov while in first person and your awareness will reach the same level as third person view but you can no longer see around corners.

[dystopeon 46]

Although there are some good points here removing third-person, people here do not seem to be grasping the problem;

 

- Players (including myself, before purchasing a new monitor with better screen size) do experience nausea while playing, even with view-bobbing completely removed. That is a fact, not an opinion. It is definitely something that the mods need to consider, because it actually would drive players away (if they do not want to be sick while playing, that is)

 

- Yes, you can see your character in the inventory screen. However, running in first-person often gets boring and something about actually seeing your character while running and not doing an important task does help for people who get bored easily.

 

- Yes, it can be used to exploit, but in the instance that someone uses it to shoot around cover they are revealing their location. If any of these so-called hardcore, manly players weren't just eating their own words, then they would have been using good enough tactics to not expose themselves and keeping themselves in cover, even at the cost of time. 

 

- I am for giving people the choice to play on servers with either, or both enabled. Of course, it does not guarantee that servers with only first-person (or only third-person) will be heavily filled, but that is the consequence of having a majority who prefers one thing over another. Forcing people to follow a specific gameplay feature does not make anyone who already uses it happy, and it may not completely stop people from playing but it will get so many people to complain.

 

 

In the end, I think the mods need to stop these kinds of threads, all they end up doing is flying in circles where it ends up becoming one side's feelings versus the other side's feelings. It isn't up to either side to decide what the devs get to force us to do (or not do, for that matter).

 

In any case, just shut the fuck up. Nothing has been said that hasn't been said before.

 

Look, I completely understand the 3rd person playstyle, it's more about situational awareness and how you choose to move, looking for signs etc. etc.. that's great and all. However, when it comes to actual COMBAT, it's just an exploit and a crutch (especially close combat). Sniping w/3DP is NOT a challenge in any regard whatsoever. And yes, no-one can posit facts as to why 3DP is a legitimate COMBAT viewpoint, it's always just crying and sub-moronic (lack of) reasoning. I'm also sorry for folk that get sick while playing, but you are <.01% of players and just shouldn't play video games period (maybe do some balance conditioning or change your diet or exercise or see a different optometrist.)  

[anderse 10]

It would be better if everyone limited theirselves to 1 or maximum 2 posts on this subject. The threads just tend to become infinite with a few people replying to every new post. Just the same arguments over and over again. Let me still put my own opinion on this once and in which I'll confirm some facts and respond to all the 3rd person arguments being used in favour for this mode.

 

Arma 2 dayz mod probably still have a few hundreds of popular servers. There is only one or so first person server left out of all these. People should be aware of the fact that standalone will end up like this eventually if 3rd person is an option for server hosts. So just saying "they can allow 1st person only servers as an alternative" is only a temporary solution for having a couple of 1st person alternatitves. It may be years before this actually happens, but I see no reason to why it wouldn't end like the mod. Anyway, only wanted to begin with pointing this out. The best for rocket to do is limit the available options, like removing crosshairs completely forever, to not make it turn out to a casual game we don't want it to become.

 

Probably 95% "prefer" 3rd person servers. But is this because they think it is SO much better to play in? In my opinion, almost everyone would adopt 1st person if this was what DayZ offered, they would still play this badass game. The difference for people is very little. They just feel slightly more comfortable in 3rd person since they can see more, look over walls and stuff. And another big factor is they first started with 3rd person, and have never given 1st person a serious try. The longer you have played 3rd person, the more annoying it feels switching over to 1st, and you start hear people saying they get headaches, even if this is just because they haven't got used to it yet, nor seen the advantages in combat.

 

So how about the arguments for 3rd person?

 

"1st person gives me tunnel vision" - They have even made it easier now in standalone in order to change your FOV. This is not defendable anymore. 3rd person is just a wider fov with an abuse feature, that unfortunately is hard for casual gamers to resist. You can increase the FOV without putting a floating camera above your head and claim this is the only way to solve the issue.

 

"My character's head is jumping too much" - Try play 1st person for a couple of hours with the head bob turned off. There is almost no jerkiness at all on this setting, YOU WILL get used to it.

 

"I want to see my character" - You can now see him/her in the inventory screen. Notice you can even run while doing this, which is a good feature in standalone. This is not an argument anymore.

 

"3rd person gives me peripheral vision" - Pfft. How the hell are you supposed to simulate this in a computer game? And you gotta be actually kidding if you claim realism benefits with 3rd person. It's just a slightly wider fov, along with some extremely unrealistic superman powers as a bonus pack.

 

"1st person is so bad in Arma" - 1st person is absolutely fine in Arma. And now we are discussing standalone. Why would dayz standalone 1st person be so much worse than in other games? It isn't. It's just a stupid excuse.

 

With that said, I also need to comment the "cheating" argument that is often used by 1st person people. There's no cheating looking over a wall in 3rd person. Everyone can put themselves in a position to get this advantage over someone. It's just about playing as cheap and dirty as possible. It destroys the gameplay completely, that's true, but talking in terms of cheating just confuses things, and 3rd person defenders will just begin uselss replying arguing why it isn't cheating. Well you get the point.

 

To sum it up basically. There are no serious 3rd person arguments other than just preferring more casual and beginner friendly gameplay. Can also add relaxing factor to this. And if all you are interested in is some PvE while ignoring pvp and interactions with other players, then it puts the question in another perspective. In this situation I can understand why 1st person wouldn't be of interest for you. But trying to use realism arguments to defend 3rd person is just absolutely ridiculous, and you know that.

 

And since we play a computer game, and specifically one with zombies, why should everything even be about "realism"? Isn't it more important to add what is most fun for the game? I'm only preferring 1st person because it makes much better gameplay. You need to actually look at people to see them, which opens up for much more face to face combat and interactions. Abusing 3rd person in fights ruins everything. Say you have rocks or trees as protection in the battlefield, you will end up standing behind it and use the camera to monitor your opponents actions. While in 1st person it is tense as hell and you need to actually do something to come out on top. I'm not saying 1st person is better or matters if you only are to run a travel distance in the landscape, but if you keep 3rd person also when it comes down to other moments, it is game breaking, which is why 1st person overall is much better and can't in my opinion even be argued against. And definitely not with realism arguments. Arguing for realism with the most unrealistic feature possible is just dumb. And if you feel you are limited in what you can do in the engine compared to real life, remember it is same for everyone. It's just pure competitive gaming and about using skill to handle it better than anyone else.

 

So what should actually be done? I'd personally like to see rocket removing 3rd person as an option for the engine, but as everyone knows this won't happen, it's probably the best to allow both modes, and this is what his intention is as well. Yeah, I think 1st person will die again eventually, but then it's a fair process after all, nothing about forcing someone to play something.

[DieBrotmafia 79]

Oh ya. I'm sure all your friends wants to play TP+FP or FP only. Either that or you only by yourself.

 

If all my friends want to play TP + FP, I'll join them. Right now we have ONLY TP + FP servers. Adding FP only servers would not change ANYTHING to the worse, it would give me the opportunity and more choices to at least play FP if there are no friends to play with or if all my friends WANT to play FP. More choices is a good thing.

 

Somehow nerfing third person would not change a thing in principle, this would still mean a compromise is made. Instead of the compromise that I and my friends will switch between TP + FP and FP only every now and then the compromise would be a nerfed TP view, which I'm sure my friends who like TP the way it currently is would also not be happy with.

 

Its just a fact, people have different tastes and you can't make a solution that makes everyone play on the same server and is still fair and not some kind of a compromise.

 

Add TP only and TP + FP servers and thats it. You are wrong if you think somehow nerfing TP view so its "fair" to play with FP views isn't a compromise for the people that currently like TP the way it is.

Edited December 24, 2013 by DieBrotmafia

[Hyp47 2]

I just feel that if the game is about being as much realistic as possible there should be only 1st person view....

third person view feels like cheating.. you have a vision advantage over the ones who play 1st person, you can see over short walls ETC.

 

Either they remove it or make it like servers with 1st person ONLY or its gonna be utter BS in my opinion...

Edited December 24, 2013 by Hyp47

[Xandariel 14]

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/157661-third-person-view-removal-from-sa-discussion/ :)