Third person view removal from SA discussion

[dnk 18]

@landfish

@-Hawkeye-

 

We're punishing noobies now? Inexperience is one thing, but if you use an exploit to expose someone's inexperience, then sorry but that is flat out cheating.

 

So, you want a hardcore game where newcomers are on an even playing field with vets... good luck with that. Every serious game invovles an extended learning period. Hell, I'm still learning about DayZ mods so many dozens/hundreds of hours in.

 

It's not an "exploit" when it's a game mechanic. Stop with the rhetoric.

 

Except, you haven't made any attempt to argue any of my points contradicting your "realism" fetish, so I guess rhetoric and complaints are all you have left to fall back on? Prove me wrong, I'm still waiting for substantive responses from any pro-FPV-only advocates... remember the "parascope" doesn't need to be nearly so long as it is. I believe this is a feature tweak issue, rather than a feature issue.

 

 

 

@bad_mojo

Nobody runs around in only first person. If the option is there you HAVE to use it. Jesus fucking christ, don't be so ignorant to the discussion, we're not here to piss you off, or make the game easier on ourselves, we're here trying to show you guys how no third person eliminates a lot of bullshit tactics. It's not that we don't use third person view, it's that we don't want the option to use it.

 

That's all you have: This pointless tangent? You guys want to convince nearly everyone to give up a integral part of their gameplay, and most of what you're doing is just ranting and insulting. Good luck with all that.

 

"we" (seems like 2 people right now) don't want it, so nobody should have it?

 

Go to a FPV-only server. If the fact they're so poorly populated is an issue for you, then that just goes to show what a minority you're in. Deal. With. It.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Third person works in this game. A skilled player learns how to not be beat just because the other person is using third person. I enjoy first person only also! It is a different challenge. But I enjoy the challenge of being easily spotted and spied on by a player. It is realistic. Someone will always have an advantage over you. All I hear is whining from people who think people are exploiting a clearly working mechanic in this game. It is laughable, at best. Sad but true. 

 

When we say exploiting a mechanic, we mean that Dean Rocket Hall, the developer of this game, thinks looking over walls using third person view shouldn't be part of the game. Thus you're exploiting the third person view to accomplish an undesired tactic.

 

Basing your argument on the fact that people have worked this exploit into their game, is the only thing that is laughable here.

Edited December 30, 2013 by bad_mojo

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Why would it? It's the same reason people don't play on first person servers. Many people who played DayZ never played ArmA. Arguably most of them, though I have nothing to back that up.

ArmA's first person, especially ArmA 2's, is clunky, unusual, and for some even nauseating. Two people I know personally legitimately can't handle it even with reduced headbobbing and no blur.

The first person aspect does not appeal to as many people as third person does. Popular ArmA servers typically allow both. Is it just so happens that there's a correlation there? Nope.

Everyone who played the mod saw it too. First person servers weren't even close to as popular as those that allowed both.

 

Even with all the vehicle servers you still have popular vanilla servers and other mods that have popular versions of themselves without 500 vehicles and 50 helis.

 

If the correlation shows anything it's that people who play DayZ, many being new to ArmA in general, just don't like using ArmA's first person.

 

 

I shouldn't have to say all of that, you know it as well as I and everyone else does. You already said it. "Fuck 'em". You know, you just don't care.

 

I'm actually done with you Diggy. I said fuckem to people not reading the warning when buying an alpha. You're just blatently saying fuckem to anyone who doesn't worship third person view. You've brought up no new points in the last few pages, you're just repeating yourself and drawing conclusions that are mainly speculation. It's pointless to discuss this topic any further with you. Fuckit.

[The_Man 393]

When we say exploiting a mechanic, we mean that Dean Rocket Hall, the developer of this game, thinks looking over walls using third person view shouldn't be part of the game. Thus you're exploiting the third person view to accomplish an undesired tactic.

 

Basing your argument on the fact that people have worked this exploit into their game, is the only thing that is laughable here.

 

Really? Looking over walls in third person isn't good? Will he add a mechanic so we can look over walls in first person like you can do in real life? No he won't. I would only support getting rid of third person if they implemented more mechanics that made observing other players easier in first in such a huge game. 

Edited December 30, 2013 by The_Man

[landfish 62]

 

 

ArmA's first person, especially ArmA 2's, is clunky, unusual, and for some even nauseating. Two people I know personally legitimately can't handle it even with reduced headbobbing and no blur.

Sorry that's not impossible to improve upon.

 

You gotta to stop describing the SA as if it is still a part of Arma because its not. Also debating the popularity of a feature is useless, with that logic, justin bieber is a master musician and keeps the music industry alive.

 

 

 

 

I won't need to keep playing the mod. Third person is here to stay. It won't go anywhere and I'm certain of that considering it's long standing presence in these games. I'm sure of that. 

Sorry, I'm here to debate 3rd person with other people, not to hear you preach about 3rd person without any contribution to the topic.

 

 

 

Really? Looking over walls in third person isn't good? Will he add a mechanic so we can look over walls in first person like you can do in real life? No he won't. I would only support getting rid of third person if they implemented more mechanics that made observing other players easier in first in such a huge game. 

Its physically impossible to see someone over a wall without exposing yourself, such basic realism shouldn't be left out of any game such as DayZ.

Edited December 30, 2013 by landfish

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

@bad_mojo

 

That's all you have: This pointless tangent? You guys want to convince nearly everyone to give up a integral part of their gameplay, and most of what you're doing is just ranting and insulting. Good luck with all that.

 

"we" (seems like 2 people right now) don't want it, so nobody should have it?

 

Go to a FPV-only server. If the fact they're so poorly populated is an issue for you, then that just goes to show what a minority you're in. Deal. With. It.

 

Actually no, that was a reply to your comment about us playing in first person on third person servers. You seemed like you didn't understand where we stand. You seemed like you thought we didn't use third person view because we didn't like the camera angle. Which is not the case. It is a rather pointless tangent I'll admit. Basically just stating the obvious to the oblivious.

 

You're not really making any points anymore, just telling us to deal with it, not gonna happen, look at population numbers, blah blah blah. The same circular arguments that have been going around in circles forever. Go back about 10 pages, you'll find all sorts of posts about everything you're currently talking about. I can't be bothered to reply anymore because you guys ignore the reply and move on to another pointless tangent.

[dallas 5195]

Very soon you'll have the ability to host your own hardcore servers, so you can stand perfectly still in the middle of a field like the AIs in Dsylexci's video or walking down the middle of the road in an wide open landscape.

 

Cover and concealment gets you a long way even on third person servers and not being a static target will also help your chances quite a bit. Peaking around a corner or over a wall doesn't really help you much, if your opponent knows how to move and secure himself. If you're a sitting duck in third person view, you're most likely also a hardcore sitting duck on a hardcore server.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Dallas

[The_Man 393]

 

 

Sorry, I'm here to debate 3rd person with other people, not to hear you preach about 3rd person without any contribution to the topic.

 

I am providing reasons to the argument. You can look over most of my posts here. They are littered with contributions in addition to my own personal opinion. I am not allowed to do that on a public forum? Lol! 

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Really? Looking over walls in third person isn't good? Will he add a mechanic so we can look over walls in first person like you can do in real life? No he won't. I would only support getting rid of third person if they implemented more mechanics that made observing other players easier in first in such a huge game. 

 

Actually, quite the opposite, he has mentioned restricting the third person camera so you can't look over and around objects. Nothing concrete mind you, he just talked about it briefly during some interviews.

 

May I ask, if he does restrict third person view to the point where you can't "abuse" it in this way anymore, are you going to reconsider playing DayZ?

[Diggydug (DayZ) 331]

I'm actually done with you Diggy. I said fuckem to people not reading the warning when buying an alpha. You're just blatently saying fuckem to anyone who doesn't worship third person view. You've brought up no new points in the last few pages, you're just repeating yourself and drawing conclusions that are mainly speculation. It's pointless to discuss this topic any further with you. Fuckit.

 

Yeah except the game is completely advertised in third person. I mean sure technically it'd be okay, but would it be "right"?

It still works both ways.

 

As for me and my view on third person, I think I've already shown my interest in the future "hardcore" servers multiple times. I want them, but I don't want it to be forced because I know people will just stop playing. There's no new points to bring up...there never have been. This topic is as old as DayZ.

 

The reality is, third person is going to stay. First person servers on their own hive will come. People will choose what they prefer.

[dnk 18]

@bad_mojo

 

Your definition of "exploit" is loose enough to fit in half the game. If Rocket didn't want this enough for it to be a real exploit, it'd be gone already. It's very easy to get rid of if it's really an "exploit", by forcing FPV-only on all servers.

 

Typically, exploits consist of:

- bugging into areas you shouldn't be able to get to and using it for an advantage

- looking through things you shouldn't be able to

- duping

- other wierd emergent stuff that wouldn't have been clear to designers

 

Like, glitching through a wall and then being able to shoot out of that object and kill people while being fully protected all the time would be an exploit.
 

 

And, I'm not "making points anymore" because the 10 or 20 points I made were barely responded to. How often per page should I repeat myself?

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/157661-third-person-view-removal-from-sa-discussion/?p=1608111

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/157661-third-person-view-removal-from-sa-discussion/?p=1608056

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/157661-third-person-view-removal-from-sa-discussion/?p=1608545

Edited December 30, 2013 by -Hawkeye-

[landfish 62]

 

Very soon you'll have the ability to host your own hardcore servers, so you can stand perfectly still in the middle of a field like the AIs in Dsylexci's video or walking down the middle of the road in an wide open landscape.

 

Cover and concealment gets you a long way even on third person servers and not being a static target will also help your chances quite a bit. Peaking around a corner or over a wall doesn't really help you much, if your opponent knows how to move and secure himself. If you're a sitting duck in third person view, you're most likely also a hardcore sitting duck on a hardcore server.

 

Point taken. But, spotting someone with an invisible periscope is still unfair. 

Edited December 30, 2013 by landfish

[The_Man 393]

The issue here is that First person advocates want to play on public hives and maintain that they don't need to play on private hives. They want us to all go first person because it is what they believe fixes this game. Sadly, in this type of game (modded from ARMA) will just cause more problems for the entire community. First person isn't a bad idea but it will affect a large portion of the community. 

 

How about this... Why not discuss how first person in addition to new mechanics will make first person more enjoyable by the entire community? Why do only the third person players have to make sacrifices? I am totally down with hearing some cool ideas on how to make first person way more enjoyable. 

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

@bad_mojo

 

Your definition of "exploit" is loose enough to fit in half the game. If Rocket didn't want this enough for it to be a real exploit, it'd be gone already. It's very easy to get rid of if it's really an "exploit", by forcing FPV-only on all servers.

 

Typically, exploits consist of:

- bugging into areas you shouldn't be able to get to and using it for an advantage

- looking through things you shouldn't be able to

- duping

- other wierd emergent stuff that wouldn't have been clear to designers

 

Like, glitching through a wall and then being able to shoot out of that object and kill people while being fully protected all the time would be an exploit.

 

 

Do I get a cookie if I dig up the interview where Rocket says he wants to remove it? I'm not going to do it mind you, but just wondering if it would hold any weight with you?

[landfish 62]

 

 

How about this... Why not discuss how first person in addition to new mechanics will make first person more enjoyable by the entire community? Why do only the third person players have to make sacrifices? I am totally down with hearing some cool ideas on how to make first person way more enjoyable. 

What sacrifices do we have left to make? 3rd person players will always have the advantage, while 1st person players are always fishes in the barrel for 3rd person players, you can never change that. There's really nothing to innovate about 1st person, it immerses you into the game and make you feel like a part of the world not just a spectator, I guess that's cool enough.

Edited December 30, 2013 by landfish

[soulfirez 901]

IM sure its been suggested but at 36 pages i aint going to read it all but couldnt you just lock 3rd view to head hieght so you cant just lookdown 45% and get a 10 foot high camera(like having your own personal UAV).

 

That way you can happily play in 3rd with no eploitive mechanic as in when i say head hieght i mean the head of your character so if you laying down you get the no more view other than peripheral than a first person view does. seems to easy to me but what do i know ah LOL

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

The issue here is that First person advocates want to play on public hives and maintain that they don't need to play on private hives. They want us to all go first person because it is what they believe fixes this game. Sadly, in this type of game (modded from ARMA) will just cause more problems for the entire community. First person isn't a bad idea but it will affect a large portion of the community. 

 

How about this... Why not discuss how first person in addition to new mechanics will make first person more enjoyable by the entire community? Why do only the third person players have to make sacrifices? I am totally down with hearing some cool ideas on how to make first person way more enjoyable. 

 

Because that's an entirely different discussion. And no amount of improving first person can compensate for the faults of third person.

[dnk 18]

@bad_mojo

 

No, because that doesn't make it an "exploit" by the terms most people understand that word as.

 

If Rocket wants to remove it, that's his prerogative, but there's no way in hell I'm paying to play a 25-35 FPS game in first person on this engine. I will stick to the A2/3 mods and be content. No, I haven't bought the game yet - I'm waiting a couple months and playing wait-n-see. For now, I'm sticking to the mods.

 

Since my position is based purely on 1) personal preference, 2) my concept of "reality" of PvP, and 3) aesthetics (also personal), and not at all on 4) one other guy's opinion (Hall's), it would not make a difference in my position, no.

 

 

Note the edit from last post:

 

And, I'm not "making points anymore" because the 10 or 20 points I made were barely responded to. How often per page should I repeat myself?

 

http://forums.dayzga...sion/?p=1608111

http://forums.dayzga...sion/?p=1608056

http://forums.dayzga...sion/?p=1608545

 

 

@SoulFirez

 

Yeah, I've said that a few times. I think others as well. A far more restricted TPV + FPV-only "hardcore" (whatever they like to call themselves) servers should be all the compromise needed.

Edited December 30, 2013 by -Hawkeye-

[The_Man 393]

Actually, quite the opposite, he has mentioned restricting the third person camera so you can't look over and around objects. Nothing concrete mind you, he just talked about it briefly during some interviews.

 

May I ask, if he does restrict third person view to the point where you can't "abuse" it in this way anymore, are you going to reconsider playing DayZ?

 

Restricting third person is different than removing it! I am down for polishing the third camera view if it makes the game better. I wouldn't reconsider playing DayZ if he restricted it. If he removed it then I would see it as a poor attempt to "fix" the game without worrying about implications from removing such a mechanic. 

 

Of course, any major change like this will totally have an aftermath. So, it needs to be dealt with carefully. 

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

IM sure its been suggested but at 36 pages i aint going to read it all but couldnt you just lock 3rd view to head hieght so you cant just lookdown 45% and get a 10 foot high camera(like having your own personal UAV).

 

That way you can happily play in 3rd with no eploitive mechanic as in when i say head hieght i mean the head of your character so if you laying down you get the no more view other than peripheral than a first person view does. seems to easy to me but what do i know ah LOL

 

Surprisingly I think a lot of these guys wouldn't like that either. They've essentially worked the exploit into their gameplay and believe the game would be worse off if they couldn't use the invisible para-scope. At least a few people think that way.

 

I wouldn't mind what you've described. But, I'd want third person removed until that kind of a system could be implemented.

[dallas 5195]

Point taken. But, spotting someone with an invisible periscope is still unfair. 

People who choose to play on third person servers accept that this sometimes works to their advantage, but often works against them. Player vs. player is very dynamic and fast paced and once the first shot has rung out, if you're not constantly moving and re-positioning yourself, you're going to get outflanked and outplayed. Once shots have been fired, you have to switch gears.

 

If you're visible from a corner or a wall, you're also visible from the 300 bushes and trees constantly surrounding you and this is why you really shouldn't be caught static anywhere in populated areas. Unless you're sitting with your back against the wall and with at least two sides walled off by cover, you're setting yourself up for failure. 

[landfish 62]

 

Restricting third person is different than removing it! I am down for polishing the third camera view if it makes the game better. I wouldn't reconsider playing DayZ if he restricted it. If he removed it then I would see it as a poor attempt to "fix" the game without worrying about implications from removing such a mechanic. 

 

Of course, any major change like this will totally have an aftermath. So, it needs to be dealt with carefully. 

Not really any harmful aftermath, just endless crying from 3rd person people and probably some death threats sent to Rocket by some sensitive trolls.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

@bad_mojo

 

No, because that doesn't make it an "exploit" by the terms most people understand that word as.

 

If Rocket wants to remove it, that's his prerogative, but there's no way in hell I'm paying to play a 25-35 FPS game in first person on this engine. I will stick to the A2/3 mods and be content. No, I haven't bought the game yet - I'm waiting a couple months and playing wait-n-see. For now, I'm sticking to the mods.

 

Since my position is based purely on 1) personal preference, 2) my concept of "reality" of PvP, and 3) aesthetics (also personal), and not at all on 4) one other guy's opinion (Hall's), it would not make a difference in my position, no.

 

 

Note the edit from last post:

 

And, I'm not "making points anymore" because the 10 or 20 points I made were barely responded to. How often per page should I repeat myself?

 

http://forums.dayzga...sion/?p=1608111

http://forums.dayzga...sion/?p=1608056

http://forums.dayzga...sion/?p=1608545

 

You can call it whatever you want. I felt like you were trying to say the developers intended it to be used this way, so calling it an exploit was wrong. I tried to show that the developer felt the same way I do about using third person view in that way. So therefore the term exploit was fitting. I don't really care what we call it. It is what it is.

 

Yeah, I responded to all of those posts. You basically just keep repeating yourself that the game isn't real life, so we should be able to unrealistically hide behind cover and still see out. Because, in real life it's hard to see people in the bushes or windows. I've already responded that I don't think it being a video game is any reason to suspend logical thinking and give people invisible para-scopes. In fact I think it hurts the gameplay.

[landfish 62]

 

 

People who choose to play on third person servers accept that this sometimes works to their advantage, but often works against them. Player vs. player is very dynamic and fast paced and once the first shot has rung out, if you're not constantly moving and re-positioning yourself, you're going to get outflanked and outplayed. Once shots have been fired, you have to switch gears.

 

Combat in DayZ should be more than just that. Players should work to gain those advantages and not rely on a game mechanic that automatically gives them that advantage. Combat is not limited to your trigger fingers, being spotted is just as dangerous as being shot. 3rd person kills that by giving the opposing player 0% of spotting anyone spying on him with 3rd person. 

 

 

 

If you're visible from a corner or a wall, you're also visible from the 300 bushes and trees constantly surrounding you and this is why you really shouldn't be caught static anywhere in populated areas. Unless you're sitting with your back against the wall and with at least two sides walled off by cover, you're setting yourself up for failure. 

 

The player hunting you should have the same difficulty in concealment as well as you do, that is not the case with 3rd person. The hunter should have a natural advantage against the prey in positioning and concealment which takes skill unlike the artificial advantage that 3rd person gives you which requires no effort.

Edited December 30, 2013 by landfish

[dallas 5195]

You can't be spotted by someone behind a wall, if you're sitting behind a bush.

 

If you're moving tactically, traveling concealed or constantly shielding yourself with obstacles and moving fast across short open distances, someone camping on top of a roof is very easily bypassed. If you're not constantly on your toes, you'll get caught both in third and first person.