December Round-up: ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ GIVE SA

[Katana67 2907]

I think he's imagining a game of Tetris or something, as opposed to one or two well-timed/placed clicks. 

 

Actually, that's quite the idea, having to complete a round of Tetris in order to reload your gun. 

 

This. Or lockpicking in Oblivion (which was lovely and frustrating as it should be).

[weparo 613]

This. Or lockpicking in Oblivion (which was lovely and frustrating as it should be).

 

Lock picking would be nice!

 

I guess I can live with that "skill" system aslong as the time values don't change more than 20% - 25%

[Katana67 2907]

Lock picking would be nice!

 

I guess I can live with that "skill" system aslong as the time values don't change more than 20% - 25%

 

I'll have to mention it in my write-up on construction that I'll be able to finish when I turn in this 20 pager today for class...

[twinturbonet (DayZ) 294]

People need to stop dealing with their preconceptions of a "skill system" (i.e. "Oh, it'll be like Skyrim!"). It's the same silly retrospect that causes people to flip out when someone even mentions (the very vague) acronym of "MMO". Everyone screams "I don't want microtransactions! I don't want to have to raid! I don't want it to be like Warcraft! No! No! No!"

 

Christ, it's a freaking concept. How it's executed is a whole different ball-game, so stop comparing a hypothetical concept in DayZ to unrelated precedent.

 

Let's call it an Improvement System. Does that help?

 

One improves certain tasks, which are not directly influenced by player action (i.e. bandaging, blood bagging, reloading, repairing, etc.) because they're procedural animations which take up X amount of time. These actions, other than their mere initiation require no input from the player. Thus, any potential improvement in these systems must be provided for by a kind of "skill system" whereby one improves certain tasks through repetition.

 

It's shouldn't be a "You've reached level 56! Allocate 5 skill points to whatever you wish!" type of system at all, and I don't think anyone here has advocated for something as such.

 

I kind of agree on this.  However, reloading faster should not be in this list.  I do like bandaging, blood bagging, repairing though.  If reloading was part of this, I believe that will get you an 'edge' on another player during a firefight... which is something that these "skill" based actions should not do in this game.

 

I might even consider bandaging faster not being part of this list of tasks... but who really bandages during a firefight?  Chances are, if you got hit, you're already going down.

Edited December 12, 2013 by twinturbonet

[Katana67 2907]

I kind of agree on this.  However, reloading faster should not be in this list.  I do like bandaging, blood bagging, repairing though.  If reloading was part of this, I believe that will get you an 'edge' on another player during a firefight... which is something that these "skill" based actions should not do in this game.

 

I haven't ever really considered DayZ/ARMA to be a game which grants an advantage in negotiating reloads, so I guess that's why I included it. I personally wouldn't mind it being implemented as such, but if they're willing to implement a "Gears of War" style type reload mini-game then I'd be okay with that as well.

 

Reloading, though, is one of those things in real-life that you improve through repetition and practice. So it makes the most sense to me at least. But I understand where you're coming from.

[twinturbonet (DayZ) 294]

I haven't ever really considered DayZ/ARMA to be a game which grants an advantage in negotiating reloads, so I guess that's why I included it. I personally wouldn't mind it being implemented as such, but if they're willing to implement a "Gears of War" style type reload mini-game then I'd be okay with that as well.

 

Reloading, though, is one of those things in real-life that you improve through repetition and practice. So it makes the most sense to me at least. But I understand where you're coming from.

 

Actually the GoW style is not a bad idea!  Never thought of that.

 

That would really be based on the skill of the player.  Maybe over the life of the character it gets a tad easier to hit the 100% spot of the reload.

Edited December 12, 2013 by twinturbonet

[Katana67 2907]

And reloading too ties in to the "aesthetics" category that I mentioned with any possible Improvement System. If I see somebody fumbling with magazines versus someone performing super tactical Chris Costa flippin' magazines reloads (even if it takes the same amount of time), I'd be much more likely to consider them as less of a threat.

[Wayze 549]

Tap R to reload fast! Increases chance to let the magazine slip your fingers and fall on the ground! The better your reload skill is the less the chance that you fail!

 

I am such a genius.

[PhilB 230]

I like the above discussion and think that Katana's proposal is not only modest (no overt nonsense at least) and reasonable, but probably inevitable and here's why:

 

I couldn't say if Dean Hall and his team conceptualize it this way, but I consider the whole architecture redesign to symbolize an attempt to add the fourth dimension into the game. The 4th dimension is time. Some games feature aesthetic notions of time but most games don't deal with time in a real way at all. And when we talk about baseball bats degrading from zombie bashing or a player dressing a bandage quickly because it is the fiftieth time he/she's done it, we are simply speaking of a time mechanic. Most things fall under actions that belong in the realm of the x,y and z axis. But there's a whole subset of programmable experience with the time axis.

 

So we see the harder notion already implemented in the SA. Inanimate objects have their own life: usefulness degrades over time and in some cases can be repaired to restore maximum usefulness. Well that's a compelling concept in a game!

 

Seems the more mundane possibility is the developer thinks about time and the player first. (One could say of course that is true with DayZ, the whole game might be about a person and time.) 

 

How well would I reload some random gun on the first day I experience a zombie apocalypse? Not well. How well would I reload a gun after 100 dayz? Probably a ton better. Makes sense to me. Especially if the experienced gained is lost upon player death. 

 

Reminds me of when I used to frequent the lonely towns of Chernarus to shoot zombies just for the practice.

[slivniku@gmail.com 93]

I totally agree with you, but this is what I really find weird about this community. Because when you mention something like this, either way the people ignore you or just say it's stupid. They don't like it...

I haven't heard once why people actually don't like it..

 

 

The only reason for not liking this concept is being a pure deathmatcher who doesn't care about survival at all.

 

Well, it is clear what you don't like about this game...

 

So, even though I will not commit sepuku if the skills are impelemented in SA, here are my reasons why I don't like the idea:

-If more you bandage (reload, whatever) better you are at bandaging, it leads to grinding. simple as that - repetition is grinding.

-repetition on the other hand rarely means improvement - many times you may repeat an action gazillion times and you will not improve unless someone shows you how it's done properly/what you are doing wrong. So there would have to be teachers who would teach - or we have to include inteligence etc. you see where this is leading?

-You all assume it would decrease KOS/deathmaching, but in reallity all these skill improvements only aid KOS/deathmach. faster reload is not nearly as important as it is against other players.

-it is not (IMO) in the spirit of the game - it was said many times that the game is supposed to teach real life knowledge and use real life knowledge.

 

now flame

[Katana67 2907]

-it is not (IMO) in the spirit of the game - it was said many times that the game is supposed to teach real life knowledge and use real life knowledge.

 

But you can't. It's impossible for me to apply my own proficiency in reloading into the game. So how do we simulate it?

 

I'm not sure if I'd agree that repetition doesn't lead to improvement. In fact, no, I'm sure I don't agree with that. Mere repetition doesn't, meaning repetition without context. But in repeating something, there is a cognitive process whereby you as a person figure out the best ways to do things for you, via a process of trial and error. You cannot simulate that cognitive process in a video game, as it occurs mentally. Things like muscle memory prove this point just as well as the cognitive process that I've mentioned above.

 

I'm not opposed to grinding either, especially if it's buttressed by naturally playing the game. It's much more distinct than typical "MMORPG-esque" grinding, in that this can be accomplished just by using fundamental mechanics of the game. Point being, you still have to actively survive whilst grinding. Whereas with traditional grinding, there is a level of removal in actually playing the game in a fluid sense.

 

I'm assuming that the (specifically) aesthetic aspect might factor in to KOSing. Not that it would decrease it at all. Adding more data points to the process of threat analysis is only a good thing.

 

I'm starting to think, though, that the mini-game approach might be better than just an ambient gradual improvement. Either way, you can't dismiss it as "not in the spirit of DayZ" because the things we're talking about (i.e. bandaging, reloading, bloodbagging, etc.) do not apply our own understandings (or even our own reflexive reactions) in accomplishing these tasks in the first place.

 

You just click a button and your character automatically goes about accomplishing these tasks without any other input from the player. If anything THAT is not in the spirit of DayZ.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Katana67

[soapmak3r 677]

In DayZ it is not 'survival or the fittest'...It is 'survival of the shittest'...Or 'survival of the shitfest'...

 

I really hope that survival is the core experience of the SA. The most fun I had in the mod was being lost, with greyed out, blurry vision, very little blood...My best friend with the same, but with about 200 blood...He kept passing out, neither of us could see shit, but we were desperately roaming the country side looking for a sheep to kill, cook and eat...It was hilarious and tortourous, but we were both determined to survive...

 

And we did! I survived for a further 3 weeks until some ballbag shot me for no reason while I was in a house near Zelenogorsk, checking my inventory.

[Wayze 549]

Well, it is clear what you don't like about this game...

 

So, even though I will not commit sepuku if the skills are impelemented in SA, here are my reasons why I don't like the idea:

-If more you bandage (reload, whatever) better you are at bandaging, it leads to grinding. simple as that - repetition is grinding.

-repetition on the other hand rarely means improvement - many times you may repeat an action gazillion times and you will not improve unless someone shows you how it's done properly/what you are doing wrong. So there would have to be teachers who would teach - or we have to include inteligence etc. you see where this is leading?

-You all assume it would decrease KOS/deathmaching, but in reallity all these skill improvements only aid KOS/deathmach. faster reload is not nearly as important as it is against other players.

-it is not (IMO) in the spirit of the game - it was said many times that the game is supposed to teach real life knowledge and use real life knowledge.

 

now flame

 

:bandit: :bandit: :bandit: :bandit: :bandit:

"-If more you bandage (reload, whatever) better you are at bandaging, it leads to grinding. simple as that - repetition is grinding."

DayZ has an health system, bandages are rare, the more you hurt yourself, the harder it gets to rest, the time you need for healing up is WAY longer than before.

No grinding if you implement it right.

 

"-repetition on the other hand rarely means improvement - many times you may repeat an action gazillion times and you will not improve unless someone shows you how it's done properly/what you are doing wrong. So there would have to be teachers who would teach - or we have to include inteligence etc. you see where this is leading?"

Who cares about what repetition means. It's a game. People have learned to survive on islands alone by themselfs. There is no teacher needed if you try hard.

 

"-You all assume it would decrease KOS/deathmaching, but in reallity all these skill improvements only aid KOS/deathmach. faster reload is not nearly as important as it is against other players."

Then take faster reloading out. What you don't see is that deathmatcher (people who just play to kill other people), won't enjoy the game because they never improve. How long does a deathmatcher live? 2-4 hours? Well, he won't get far.

In DayZ Mod you simply have to go deathmatch because there is nothing else to do. Surviving is just useless. You don't improve yourself atall. No matter if it is 200 hours or just 1, your character stays the same. If you add value to the game, characters who have survived 3 hours will be valuable. No one wants to do it again so he plays carefully. He has a goal, his goal is to keep the character alive.

Never said it would reduce KOS, but KOS has NOTHING TO DO WITH DEATHMATCHING.

But you are right, we all assume. The alpha is there for testing it. If it doesn't work just scratch it. But why not trying, just because you think it couldn't work?

 

"-it is not (IMO) in the spirit of the game - it was said many times that the game is supposed to teach real life knowledge and use real life knowledge."

What is the reason for that? And do you really think knowledge is everything? Do you think just by watching Bear Grylls surviving in the woods you are capable of building the perfect fire and perfect traps?

Edited December 12, 2013 by Wayze

[PhilB 230]

I'd like to see the servers maintained in a way that no one can hide in an empty server. That ends most "grinding" right there. My experience with busy servers tells me considering such silliness is bad strategy that will quickly get you killed. 

[Katana67 2907]

I'd like to see the servers maintained in a way that no one can hide in an empty server. That ends most "grinding" right there. My experience with busy servers tells me considering such silliness is bad strategy that will quickly get you killed. 

 

Must... resist... urge... to advocate for... server-fixed characters...

[Wayze 549]

I'm starting to think, though, that the mini-game approach might be better than just an ambient gradual improvement. Either way, you can't dismiss it as "not in the spirit of DayZ" because the things we're talking about (i.e. bandaging, reloading, bloodbagging, etc.) do not apply our own understandings (or even our own reflexive reactions) in accomplishing these tasks in the first place.

Makes no sense. ^^

 

Why do we even talk about a "skillsystem"? To improve character value. There is no character value if there are some stupid, annoying minigames which are not even designed for the engine and absolutly break immersion (because they are badly implemented).

Edited December 12, 2013 by Wayze

[soapmak3r 677]

I quite liked low population servers in the mod...15-20 was a good number, mainly because it made encounters much less likely and more tense, and people were a lot less likely to kill on sight...Also, the hackers generally went to the most popular servers.

 

With 50 players, you were pretty much guaranteed to run into murderous assholes anywhere where there might be some decent gear and encounters were almost always fatal...I have no reason to believe that this mentality will be any different in the SA, unfortunately.

Edited December 12, 2013 by soapmak3r

[PhilB 230]

Must... resist... urge... to advocate for... server-fixed characters...

 

You a proponent of server-fixed characters?

 

Here's my math problem with that: Let's assume server has 100 person capacity. And one hopes that the server has anywhere from 50-90 people on it at most times. So how many total fixed characters "subscribe" to the one server? 100? Then average population on server at any given time will be like 20-25 people considering work, sleep and all other reasons 1 of a hundred people aren't logged in at that moment. So how many subscribers to a single server? 300? Then sure you'd probably have like 70-80 players on that server at any given time. However then you'd have certain peak hours where the server is completely full and there are like 80-100 players who simply can't play because the one single server they are allowed to play on is full. 

 

Other than that, I love the idea of one's "home server". I feel like most of us play that way anyway. 

 

What about a limited web of available servers. A player designates his "home server". Then a player can assign up to four other servers as alternates.

 

Then some order can still be maintained while allowing some flexibility. Global server population availability can be restricted. 

[Very Ape 748]

This. Or lockpicking in Oblivion (which was lovely and frustrating as it should be).

 

That's a very good example of a combination of mini-games and skills. While you could easily get the hang of it, it's not something you would be able to perform quickly under pressure. In Oblivion, the game "paused" while you did this. But imagine being out in the open having to pick a door open in DayZ as you hear zombies, or even gunshots, getting increasingly closer.

 

Hell, even the reloading mini-game from Gears of War could work, if executed properly. Imagine the stress of reloading as a zombie sprints towards you or you're faced with another player who also just ran out of ammunition. In life, no matter how proficient you are at reloading (or lock-picking), that doesn't necessarily translate into skill in reloading (or lock-picking) under threat of having your face eaten or your head blown off.

 

The crippling stress you feel while playing the game is something I love. In Battlefield, I can easily line up a shot and kill a player without a second thought. In DayZ, my hands shake uncontrollably and I've often missed at point-blank range. I don't have nerves of steel, and I wish it would manifest itself not only in shooting but in reloading. 

Edited December 12, 2013 by Very Ape

[Wayze 549]

You a proponent of server-fixed characters?

 

Here's my math problem with that: Let's assume server has 100 person capacity. And one hopes that the server has anywhere from 50-90 people on it at most times. So how many total fixed characters "subscribe" to the one server? 100? Then average population on server at any given time will be like 20-25 people considering work, sleep and all other reasons 1 of a hundred people aren't logged in at that moment. So how many subscribers to a single server? 300? Then sure you'd probably have like 70-80 players on that server at any given time. However then you'd have certain peak hours where the server is completely full and there are like 80-100 players who simply can't play because the one single server they are allowed to play on is full. 

 

Other than that, I love the idea of one's "home server". I feel like most of us play that way anyway. 

 

What about a limited web of available servers. A player designates his "home server". Then a player can assign up to four other servers as alternates.

 

Then some order can still be maintained while allowing some flexibility. Global server population availability can be restricted. 

The concept of home servers doesn't work. If there is loot that is just on 2 of 1000 servers, just 2 servers and that means just as many players that have characters on these servers, are able to obtain it. If someone obtains it and he is on a low pop server t he can hold this loot forever because noones ever coming to him and he is not able to go to anyone.

The other thing is that weapons and ammo are way rarer. It doesn't work quite well if there is a group of people on a server who dominate everything because no one has firearms and ammo just them.

And the concept of an economy wouldn't work either. Ever server would have to have its own economy and that does not work out well, if you ask me.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Wayze

[slivniku@gmail.com 93]

hmmm, whom do I answer first...

 

But you can't. It's impossible for me to apply my own proficiency in reloading into the game. So how do we simulate it?

you don't - your proficiency in reloading is (probably) directly related to your rig and specific placement of pouches - if you only wear jeans and cary teh spare in them, does your reload time change?

So it makes sense that your reload time is related to the gear you have, which in the end acomplished the same thing.

 

repetition on the other hand rarely means improvement

there is a cognitive process whereby you as a person figure out the best ways to do things for you
...

You just click a button and your character automatically goes about accomplishing these tasks without any other input from the player.

 

as you said, in the game you merely press R (repetition) and the character reloads, so who learns, you or your character? and as you as a player obviously didn' lear anything, what inteligence level is your character? How much did he learn?

 

I'm starting to think, though, that the mini-game approach might be better than just an ambient gradual improvement. Either way, you can't dismiss it as "not in the spirit of DayZ" because the things we're talking about (i.e. bandaging, reloading, bloodbagging, etc.) do not apply our own understandings (or even our own reflexive reactions) in accomplishing these tasks in the first place.

 

That I can agree with, but also understand it is nay impossible to implement

 

DayZ has an health system, bandages are rare, the more you hurt yourself, the harder it gets to rest, the time you need for healing up is WAY longer than before.

you make bandages out of clothes, which shouldn't really be rare...

 

In DayZ Mod you simply have to go deathmatch because there is nothing else to do. Surviving is just useless. You don't improve yourself atall. No matter if it is 200 hours or just 1, your character stays the same. If you add value to the game, characters who have survived 3 hours will be valuable. No one wants to do it again so he plays carefully. He has a goal, his goal is to keep the character alive.

Never said it would reduce KOS, but KOS has NOTHING TO DO WITH DEATHMATCHING.

The longer you play the game, more good items you have, which in the end makes you just as connected to your character as skills. so skills IMO make little difference. What is more important to people, the sweet M4 or the speed of bandaging?

But you are right, we all assume. The alpha is there for testing it. If it doesn't work just scratch it. But why not trying, just because you think it couldn't work?

If you were a dev asking this question I would say go ahead, but you are basically asking the devs to do it, devote resources and time, just because you think it will work. given that neither of knows I would rather have them spend teh time on vehicles and basebuilding.

[ukko 33]

In DayZ it is not 'survival or the fittest'...It is 'survival of the shittest'...Or 'survival of the shitfest'...

 

I really hope that survival is the core experience of the SA. The most fun I had in the mod was being lost, with greyed out, blurry vision, very little blood...My best friend with the same, but with about 200 blood...He kept passing out, neither of us could see shit, but we were desperately roaming the country side looking for a sheep to kill, cook and eat...It was hilarious and tortourous, but we were both determined to survive...

 

And we did! I survived for a further 3 weeks until some ballbag shot me for no reason while I was in a house near Zelenogorsk, checking my inventory.

And by that i am forced to withdraw my earlier statement. You survive everything and some scumbag put you full of holes, just for fun.

[Very Ape 748]

I have to admit that there are valid points on both sides of the fixed-character debate. 

 

My best experiences have been from my character being locked to a small private hive; two to three servers at most. Perhaps a combination of this, and countermeasures destined to prevent server-hopping (spawning at the coast every time) would be best? Although I can imagine that players would abuse this to get to the coast, if that's where they actually wanted to go. 

 

A timer seems like the most sensible solution, and perhaps zones that restrict logging out/spawning, such as within the borders of cities or inside of buildings. 

 

I made a suggestion once of "abort zones" being restricted to forests and fields, but it wasn't very well-received. That way, survivors who managed to lock down fortifications or even entire cities weren't subject to "ghosting" and people who made excursions into the very dangerous cities had to get out alive if they wanted to abort, as opposed to hiding in a building and waiting for the abort timer to count down. Same goes for any area with loot, really. You leave the area before aborting so that if you're farming, you have to at least make your way out, abort, log back in, and then make your way back into the loot area, which is riskier than just appearing next to it. 

 

I don't think it's that bad of a suggestion. Most people complained about casual gamers being "forced" to keep playing, but would you plan an excursion in a zombie-infested city if you didn't have the time to follow through? Let's face it, people who exploit the game would be more penalized than this anecdotal casual gamer who somehow only has twenty minutes to play every day that I keep hearing about. 

 

We shouldn't cater to people who can't play long enough to find a forest. They're everywhere. Even an hour is enough to get in and out of a city. Complaining that such measures "force" people to play is akin to claiming that having to complete a twenty-minute round in Battlefield 4 is "forcing" people to play the game. Battlefield 4 caters to casual gamers who are able to complete a twenty-minute round, and not people who can only play in intervals of five minutes. Just like DayZ caters to people who have at least an hour or two to spare, not people who can only play for twenty minutes. 

Edited December 12, 2013 by Very Ape

[PhilB 230]

The concept of home servers doesn't work. If there is loot that is just on 2 of 1000 servers, just 2 servers and that means just as many players that have characters on these servers, are able to obtain it. If someone obtains it and he is on a low pop server t he can hold this loot forever because noones ever coming to him and he is not able to go to anyone.

The other thing is that weapons and ammo are way rarer. It doesn't work quite well if there is a group of people on a server who dominate everything because no one has firearms and ammo just them.

And the concept of an economy wouldn't work either. Ever server would have to have its own economy and that does not work out well, if you ask me.

 If I understand you correctly, then yes that is another reason why players shouldn't be locked to one single server. But that isn't what I'm suggesting. 

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

Rocket spoke of having items strapped to your backpack, saving space.

 

I think you should only be able to carry larger items this way. Things you know won't fit in a backpack; tires, autoglass and other large car parts and certain building materials should probably always be carried this way.

 

Would you stalk the guy with car parts on his back to see where and to what he leads you?