Will the SA actually be a zombie game?

[mrgrendel 1]

One of the things that disappointed me about the DayZ mod was that it started out strongly as a zombie survival game, but as I played it more, it turned out that this aspect is shallow, or just neglected by the development team. The late game is just a pvp-fest, which is fine if you like that, I suppose, but I would like a zombie survival game, not hardcore mode counterstrike with zombies in the scenery. There is a large disconnect between the starting game and the end game, and I suspect that a fair amount of player loss is due to beginning expectations that are not kept up throughout the game experience. For instance the pvp focus comes through in several things,

 

- Zombies are terrifying early on but very quickly become almost completely ignorable. Engage auto run cross country, get a snack until you see an open door. Attempts to improve this have seemed meager.

- Many high tier items are useless on zombies, but not players, ie sniper rifles, ghillies, not to mention fortifications zombies just clip through. You might have craftable flash-bang clusters that immobilize hordes of zombies, etc, and super-dense zombie areas with good loot where precisely that would be useful.

- Killing survivors gives you a bandit skin, killing bandits gives you a hero skin... you get nothing for, say, killing zombies in one life, or surviving for n hours.

- Zombie AI is dumb. Allowing players to hop in and control zombies/zombie bosses for some form of reward would add spice and tweak the "only end challenge is other survivors" factor in a significant way.

 

I don't follow DayZ forums/SA all that much, so was just curious if this approach in general will be different for the SA and if we can expect to see more of a focus on zombie survival. Maybe disabling attacks meaning that cooperating with others is more likely to save your life. Or more high-end items that work well against zombies, and more "achievement" type things again focused on cooperating, killing zombies, surviving.

Edited November 24, 2013 by MrGrendel

[TIC 1050]

Definitely. The problem with the mod is that it's not a game itself, ARMA 2 is a military simulator (Not a game about zombies in particular)

 

They're fully aware about the whole situation and will probably make it the best experience possible as a standalone game based off the mod. I wouldn't worry.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

> Zombie survival game

> Control zombies and zombie bosses

 

Gah. No. Please.

 

 

You should do your research on the Standalone. Read the Twitter, or even just the dev-blog. (Which is yet to be updated since a couple months ago, but there is always the announcement section.)

 

There's not going to be different "skins" you get for doing x or y. You have what you find. That's it. And the zombies will be more of a threat in the Standalone because we can actually do something about them. (Like giving them "gesture" attacks instead of having them stop to throw a punch, or jump at you to knock you to the ground.)

 

Edit; Most of the problems AI and movement-wise are due to the limits of the engine, not so much the mod itself.

Although yes, it is an MMOFPS. But it's the population that made it so. (And it's not entirely their fault, the issue loops back to zombies and around again.)

Edited November 24, 2013 by Dancing.Russian.Man

[broguenz 333]

..I don't follow DayZ that much,...

 

I think you should.

 

[OfficerRaymond 2064]

No idea. We know the zombies will be harder to deal with than the mod, but it'll come down to the community to create the zombie survival atmosphere. With all the KoS kids we have, who knows what direction the game will take. We could have another trolling fad like we have right now. We could have a legitimate survival game where people interact with each other like intended. No-one knows.

 

The game is largely how you make it. If you choose to be a burden on others and ruin their experiences, that's your choice. The ability to make your own decisions is what makes DayZ so awesome, and so shitty at the same time.

[Shadow Slayer 13]

Does anyone know an expected date for the SA alpha? Or is it just guesses?

[OfficerRaymond 2064]

Does anyone know an expected date for the SA alpha? Or is it just guesses?

If we knew, you'd know.

 

The forums would cause everyone's computer to explode.

[mrgrendel 1]

No idea. We know the zombies will be harder to deal with than the mod, but it'll come down to the community to create the zombie survival atmosphere. With all the KoS kids we have, who knows what direction the game will take. [...] The game is largely how you make it.

 

The game pushed people in this direction: There's very little late game challenge in surviving or killing zombies... and no rewards. Unlike other players. It's not as simple as saying "the game itself is not to blame for who chooses to play it." No, the game attracts players based on its merits, or lack of.

 

Making zombies more difficult is a step in the right direction, but will it actually reward cooperation for survival? The two are not the same. Just as an example, if stealth is a factor, the more people you have, the more likely you are to be spotted. In this case, having harder zombies and more people will just make screw-ups more likely and more punishing.

Edited November 24, 2013 by MrGrendel

[mrgrendel 1]

> Zombie survival game

> Control zombies and zombie bosses

 

Gah. No. Please.

It's not exactly an untested design option. You prefer idiotic AI or lack of challenge?

[OfficerRaymond 2064]

The game pushed people in this direction: There's very little late game challenge in surviving or killing zombies... and no rewards. Unlike other players. It's not as simple as saying "the game itself is not to blame for who chooses to play it." No, the game attracts players based on its merits, or lack of.

 

Making zombies more difficult is a step in the right direction, but will it actually reward cooperation for survival? The two are not the same. Just as an example, if stealth is a factor, the more people you have, the more likely you are to be spotted. In this case, having harder zombies and more people will just make screw-ups more likely and more punishing.

And that will increase the survival aspect of the game. HOPEFULLY people will be less willing to want to kill others or go into populated areas to avoid the risk of getting spotted by zombies.

[applejaxc 2500]

1. Sniper rifles are only useless vs zombies in the mod because zombies can endlessly respawn. This problem will be fixed in the SA... at least, that's what their early intentions were (devblogs lately seem to be contradicting this)

2. WHAT game with PvP has a stronger PvE factor? There aren't any. It's an unavoidable problem unless you want super zombies covering the entire map.

 

I can tell you don't "Follow the DayZ forums much" because

3. The game is a survival challenge vs humans and zombies, not Left 4 Dead. You want to control the zombies? Go play something else.

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

It's not exactly an untested design option. You prefer idiotic AI or lack of challenge?

Is it tested? Yes.

Is it fun? Definitely for some.

Is it going to be possible in the Standalone? No.

 

It's not the kind of thing that fits the scope of what DayZ is trying to be.

Not unless Rocket suddenly wants to step outside of the human-player <> human-player interaction.

 

Edit; I'm not saying what I am because I disagree with you.

I'm saying them because I've been around for a looong time and I've seen and heard a lot of things that Rocket has said several times, in several places. So I'm fairly confident that I know -- to a point -- what Rocket is willing to put into the game. Experimenting is never bad, but not everything can be put in one place.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Dancing.Russian.Man

[mrgrendel 1]

Increasing the survival aspect of the game does not mean it won't still be a pvp-fest end game.

 

I mean, for all I've said about it getting easier to survive as as you learn the game, DayZ is already very survival oriented compared to every other game. However, that did nothing to deter from the pvp aspect, due to the various other points I mentioned.

 

Going back to Dancing's objection to player-controlled zombies in some form, it's a sure-fire way to counter the issue of stale, boring, predictable AI. If you have viral zombies that stalk you, ambush you, wait on loot spots, and do things you generally don't expect, it will do a lot to make surviving against zombies more interesting in the long run.

Edited November 24, 2013 by MrGrendel

[mrgrendel 1]

It's not the kind of thing that fits the scope of what DayZ is trying to be.

Not unless Rocket suddenly wants to step outside of the human-player <> human-player interaction.

 

All it is is an effective way to upgrade AI and replayability of enemies to levels not possible with computer-controlled mobs.

 

Also, please don't tell me you have more player interaction from the bandit that just snipes you from 800m away.

Edited November 24, 2013 by MrGrendel

[OfficerRaymond 2064]

Increasing the survival aspect of the game does not mean it won't still be a pvp-fest end game.

No it doesn't.

 

If the game turns into a PvP oriented game, it'll be broken just like the mod.

[mrgrendel 1]

Well, I'm skeptical but also hopeful, I guess we'll see. What will the challenge be once you have survival mastered? Zombie AI will become boring. Other players will still be unpredictable. If other players are only survivors, your remaining challenge will be killing survivors. If zombie AI is stale, as any computer AI always is eventually, any forum of "versus zombies" for its own sake will become boring. I suspect that after some time the end game players will once more revert to the KOS crowd, unless some serious attention is paid to the "zombie faction" of the game and their flaws, primarily lack of intelligent challenge, and lack of rewards in dealing with them.

Edited November 24, 2013 by MrGrendel

[Inception. 9443]

Zombie bosses? No thank you.

[mrgrendel 1]

Zombie bosses? No thank you.

 

We already have them, they're called viral zombies.

[Inception. 9443]

We already have them, they're called viral zombies.

 

In Vanilla DayZ?

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

Pease don't tell me you have more player interaction from the bandit that just snipes you from 800m away.

That is that specific individual's choice. If he wants to kill you instead of bothering to even enter close combat, what are you to do, other than hide or get shot? That problem will be mitigated by the fact that there won't be more than maybe one or two scoped rifles, and I'm hoping none of them will be the kind that instantly kill you.

 

 

In Vanilla DayZ?

Yes. In the original DayZ mod. Where have you been all this time? (Semi-serious question, I actually haven't seen you post!)

Edited November 24, 2013 by Dancing.Russian.Man

[mrgrendel 1]

In Vanilla DayZ?

 

Yes.

 

http://dayz.gamepedia.com/Zed#Types_of_Zed

[Inception. 9443]

Yes.

 

http://dayz.gamepedia.com/Zed#Types_of_Zed

I see.

 

Well, I still dislike the idea of "hopping in" and controlling zombies.

[mrgrendel 1]

People tend to dislike new ideas. You also wouldn't be forced to actually do this yourself.

Edited November 24, 2013 by MrGrendel

[mrgrendel 1]

That is that specific individual's choice.

 

As you can see, wether players interact or not is not simply a choice that Rocket can make, but rather one that is brought about indirectly by game design and circumstances. It's quite likely that having some occasional player-controlled zeds is part of the solution of ensuring the rest, playing as survivors, interact more willingly end-game, in the sense that players (in this case opposing as zeds) can bring about real challenge in a way that computer AI never can.

 

I'm fairly certain (sadly) that the eventual alternative will be a gradual return of the KOS game mentality, over more or less amount of time depending on how well the survival challenge is fleshed out.

Edited November 24, 2013 by MrGrendel

[Inception. 9443]

People tend to dislike new ideas. You also wouldn't be forced to actually do this yourself.

 

No, it doesn't matter whether the idea is new or not, I dislike it. Whether or not I would be forced to do it myself is irrelevant.