Why We Need A Release Date

[iegle 117]

Excellent thread.  The lack of a public release date does suggest to me that there is insufficient employment of sound project management principles on the developer's side.  This does not bode well for a timely release, or even a release at all.  Many great games languished and died on the developing table.  A sense of urgency is warranted.  Besides, we are talking about release of an unfinished alpha here.  Surely if the developers knew what they were doing they could make a public commitment.

 

This sort of performance would not be tolerated in my field.

 

At any rate, I'm happy with the mod.

[Wayze 549]

Excellent thread.  The lack of a public release date does suggest to me that there is insufficient employment of sound project management principles on the developer's side.  This does not bode well for a timely release, or even a release at all.  Many great games languished and died on the developing table.  A sense of urgency is warranted.  Besides, we are talking about release of an unfinished alpha here.  Surely if the developers knew what they were doing they could make a public commitment.

 

This sort of performance would not be tolerated in my field.

 

At any rate, I'm happy with the mod.

Did you like ever developed your own game? You talk about "if they knew what they were doing...", but you have no idea how this industry works.

When you look on other AAA titles, they either announce the game (or a release) when there is atleast something like an alpha build, or they have everything exactly planned out, before developing the game. But even if they have, it is very hard to tell when the game is going to be finished. Just look at the last few years, there were many AAA titles which were delayed.

But like I said, these are games which are planned from the beginning. Often it takes a year or more just to get the concept done, this is before the actuall developing begins. DayZ did not have this advantage, it was just a mod. You can be very glad that Dean is able to get an alpha out within a year, because others need that time just to get the foundations done.

Additionally Dean was not able to develope the game from ground base, he was forced (because he wanted to release the game as fast as possible) to use an engine which is meant for simulations. He had to rewrite the engine, which is not easy at all. This is why they are not able to say "The game is out in 6 months", because they are in middle of the developement. GTA5 release date for example was announced when the game was almost finished (probably it was) and that is the case with most of the games nowadays.

 

So please, cut the crap with "They have no idea what they are doing!".

Edited September 18, 2013 by Wayze

[mercules 1290]

Our release dates for my company's software are set up when the gold master goes out to get turned into CDs and the printer is receiving the PDFs to turn them into guides. We already know X, Y, and Z will be in place and what date it will be in the warehouses to ship. Before that we will say things like, "Coming soon. Expect it late third quarter of 2013." and it might still end up in the first quarter of 2014 if unforeseen issues come up.

[iegle 117]

Did you like ever developed your own game? You talk about "if they knew what they were doing...", but you have no idea how this industry works.

When you look on other AAA titles, they either announce the game (or a release) when there is atleast something like an alpha build, or they have everything exactly planned out, before developing the game. But even if they have, it is very hard to tell when the game is going to be finished. Just look at the last few years, there were many AAA titles which were delayed.

But like I said, these are games which are planned from the beginning. Often it takes a year or more just to get the concept done, this is before the actuall developing begins. DayZ did not have this advantage, it was just a mod. You can be very glad that Dean is able to get an alpha out within a year, because others need that time just to get the foundations done.

Additionally Dean was not able to develope the game from ground base, he was forced (because he wanted to release the game as fast as possible) to use an engine which is meant for simulations. He had to rewrite the engine, which is not easy at all. This is why they are not able to say "The game is out in 6 months", because they are in middle of the developement. GTA5 release date for example was announced when the game was almost finished (probably it was) and that is the case with most of the games nowadays.

 

So please, cut the crap with "They have no idea what they are doing!".

 

I have been a project manager in R&D environments for over 15 years.  I am quite familiar with the risks involved, and the methods that can be employed to mitigate against them.  The PM techniques are general, and not industry-specific.

 

Besides, they have already publicly disclosed one release date, and botched it.  So...did they not know what they were doing then, or now? 

 

Since we are getting personal, please disclose how much experience you have in either game development, R&D, or PM.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Besides, they have already publicly disclosed one release date, and botched it.  So...did they not know what they were doing then, or now? 

Just to clarify, that one release date was for an entirely different project.  That's the only release date they've ever made public too.  Everything else has been speculation (admitedly after some bad communication from Rocket) .

 

Initially they were just going to port the mod to a new engine and polish it up a bit.  They missed the date because they opted to take a different path.  Now they're making a new game.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Fraggle

[iegle 117]

Acknowledged.  Thanks for the correction. :thumbsup:

[St. Jimmy 1631]

 

 

If I had a software engineer in one of my teams telling me "Uh, this task I received, well, I think it is ready when it is ready" I would simply tell him "Ok son, understood - you'll also get your next salary slip when your task is ready " and this usually works: estimating the amount of effort required to do something is a measure of your professionalism as a software engineer. Your peers will judge you on that as well.

 

_Anubis_

 

Damn Straight. It's called accountability. Sometimes you have to set this up for yourself. Which is why we need a release date. It would benefit the developers more than the player base if they took it very seriously.

 

Your point doesn't make sense in this case because the leader is saying take your time, no rush and have my brother to do some big changes in the engine. Arma 3 was bit rushed because of release date. Don't know have you missed it but it got shit load of people angry in the forums. Oh and I think you remember how much DayZ got bashed because of missed release...

[Rage VG 4033]

And this get's to the point of my actual post, I'm arguing that we do in fact need one because it will give the team a concrete date by which to have the job done. I've cited peer reviewed journals on Parkinson's law, noted the set date for the lunar landing, and made several other relevant points as to why we all do NEED a release date, but even now, some community members aren't picking up what I'm putting down. I'll say it again Why We Need A Release Date. Because work expands to fill the time you allow for it. 

Right, So tell me why we need it done soon? Why do we need to game to come out before a certain time? Simply put, we don't need a release date, we want a release date, and so as it is not an undeniable fact that we NEED a release date, of course there will be people saying that we don't. So there's no point in telling people their opinions do not count.

[Aporis 422]

We want a release date, but we wont get one, its a simple fact. No matter what "Scumbag" Dean (Thats what they say across the web.)  ain't giving us a release date, he's most likely just going to push the button and see how many people will notice it on the first day. 

 

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

I think the big problem Rocket&co are having is the amount of hype they unfortunately created. The german have a very nice word for that ("selber schuld")...

 

SA has been presented as a super-duper evolution of dayz, full of magical features not available in the mod and for this reason a"brand new game has been designed" (doh!) so there is a lot of hype and saliva drooling, but after endless videos people see the usual stuff over and over (the Z jumping, the guy with the motorcycle helmet, the loot in the car etc).

 

All of this is nice and fine but at the same time the mods are growing too (thanks to a very active developers community) and here and there appears bases to be created, stashes, more enterable buildings, dogs, different UIs, hatchet slot, more weapons etc Features, lots of them.

 

Then started the back-pedal mode: Uh, SA won't have full scope at the beginning, it will be alpha/beta/gamma, it will have bugs, it will take time to be good,it will be cheap at the beginning,... Why cheap? I want it to be good and I am ready to pay a full price IF it will be good.

 

I am personally far more concerned about 'the big plan/vision' behind SA rather than its (first?) release date. What they will release is important, more important compared to when.

 

_Anubis_

[HumanBeing25 299]

wat?

Obama failing to understand his own brainless use of words in speeches he never wrote himself.

I've seen it all!

[Wayze 549]

I have been a project manager in R&D environments for over 15 years.  I am quite familiar with the risks involved, and the methods that can be employed to mitigate against them.  The PM techniques are general, and not industry-specific.

 

Besides, they have already publicly disclosed one release date, and botched it.  So...did they not know what they were doing then, or now? 

 

Since we are getting personal, please disclose how much experience you have in either game development, R&D, or PM.

I develope non-commercial games. Most of the projects take years to finish, but I just do it for fun. Mostly I am doing it alone, but even if there is a team it is very hard.

My project mostly starts with an idea, a simple gameplay feature or a storyline. Then I plan everything out, which takes months. Just going through the whole game, every single aspect and calculate how it will work. Many people in the community I do the games for, have the problem that they do not plan out. They just have an good idea, which is simply not enough. You need to get the idea into programm-able concept, and this is easily done wrong. Sometimes you have an idea, but it would take years to do it alone.

Anyways, I know pretty much how the process of game developing/design works and what difficulties occur.

 

I am not sure what "R&D" means, but if research and development I don't think you are able to judge people who develope a game. If you do not have programmed a game ever in your life you just are not qualified to say "He doesn't know what he is doing because...". You have no idea of this subject matter, you don't know how it works and you don't even know about DayZ. You are totally disinformend about everything that is important for this discussion.

The release Dean announced a year ago was for a standalone mod. It was nothing else than the mod and arma 2 combined into a downloadable game. This has nothing to do with the current standalone, which is actually redone from ground up.

 

You have to realise that developing a game is not simple science where you can determine every single aspect. It is like art combined with many different kinds of craftsmanship. Compare it to a movie, just way more complicated.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Wayze

[Dr. Goner 661]

Right, So tell me why we need it done soon? Why do we need to game to come out before a certain time? Simply put, we don't need a release date, we want a release date, and so as it is not an undeniable fact that we NEED a release date, of course there will be people saying that we don't. So there's no point in telling people their opinions do not count.

We need a release date because it would give the development team a solid goal. It would set up accountability as they wouldn't want to miss that date. They would have set a clear expectation for themselves and the community. I never said anything about when that date should be it could be two years from now or two days for all I care. I know (and have show evidence to back it up so it's not simply my opinion) that this would benefit the development team as far as time management is concerned.

[Dr. Goner 661]

I develope non-commercial games. Most of the projects take years to finish, but I just do it for fun. Mostly I am doing it alone, but even if there is a team it is very hard.

My project mostly starts with an idea, a simple gameplay feature or a storyline. Then I plan everything out, which takes months. Just going through the whole game, every single aspect and calculate how it will work. Many people in the community I do the games for, have the problem that they do not plan out. They just have an good idea, which is simply not enough. You need to get the idea into programm-able concept, and this is easily done wrong. Sometimes you have an idea, but it would take years to do it alone.

Anyways, I know pretty much how the process of game developing/design works and what difficulties occur.

 

I am not sure what "R&D" means, but if research and development I don't think you are able to judge people who develope a game. If you do not have programmed a game ever in your life you just are not qualified to say "He doesn't know what he is doing because...". You have no idea of this subject matter, you don't know how it works and you don't even know about DayZ. You are totally disinformend about everything that is important for this discussion.

The release Dean announced a year ago was for a standalone mod. It was nothing else than the mod and arma 2 combined into a downloadable game. This has nothing to do with the current standalone, which is actually redone from ground up.

 

You have to realise that developing a game is not simple science where you can determine every single aspect. It is like art combined with many different kinds of craftsmanship. Compare it to a movie, just way more complicated.

 

Let me ask you this, what would you do if someone told you, they would give you ten million dollars, if you finish your game by a certain set date? I know what I would do.

 

Contracting companies work like this all the time. It's the reason private construction jobs take, on average, half the time to complete when a bonus is paid if a certain date is met vs. jobs that are paid on an hourly basis with no clear deadline. Honestly, the latter is almost never the case anymore. When the incentives are correct, this data is backed up time and time again. 

Edited September 19, 2013 by DrGonzo

[Rage VG 4033]

We need a release date because it would give the development team a solid goal. It would set up accountability as they wouldn't want to miss that date. They would have set a clear expectation for themselves and the community. I never said anything about when that date should be it could be two years from now or two days for all I care. I know (and have show evidence to back it up so it's not simply my opinion) that this would benefit the development team as far as time management is concerned.

I'm pretty sure that "finishing the game we've been pouring all of our time into for millions of people globally" is a pretty solid goal. Setting a deadline on that is rather unnecessary from that point of view.

[Wayze 549]

Let me ask you this, what would you do if someone told you, they would give you ten million dollars, if you finish your game by a certain set date? I know what I would do.

 

Contracting companies work like this all the time. It's the reason private construction jobs take, on average, half the time to complete when a bonus is paid if a certain date is met vs. jobs that are paid on an hourly basis with no clear deadline. Honestly, the latter is almost never the case anymore. When the incentives are correct, this data is backed up time and time again. 

What are you talking about? Publishers, they set the release date and you surely don't get money for it, you just get the money for the development.

And as you probably know Dean is pretty much an indie developer, so he doesn't need to finish the game by a certain date.

 

And what has all this to do with the DayZ release date?

Edited September 19, 2013 by Wayze

[Dr. Goner 661]

What are you talking about? Publishers, they set the release date and you surely don't get money for it, you just get the money for the development.

And as you probably know Dean is pretty much an indie developer, so he doesn't need to finish the game by a certain date.

 

And what has all this to do with the DayZ release date?

Nevermind.

[iegle 117]

I am not sure what "R&D" means, but if research and development I don't think you are able to judge people who develope a game. If you do not have programmed a game ever in your life you just are not qualified to say "He doesn't know what he is doing because...". You have no idea of this subject matter, you don't know how it works and you don't even know about DayZ. You are totally disinformend about everything that is important for this discussion.

 

 

PM techniques are general, and not industry-specific.

 

 

PM techniques are general, and not industry-specific.

 

 

PM techniques are general, and not industry-specific.

 

 

I develop drugs, from bench to bedside.  The process far exceeds game development in terms of complexity, has timelines that exceed 10 years, and budgets approaching $1 billion.  When I start a project I have to provide a commitment to my management on a first-patient-in date and a commercial release date.  This is usually before I even know what disease I am targeting.  My target metric for this information is 90% on time.  If I miss too often, my ass gets fired.

 

Please don't characterize me as unqualified or disinformed, son.

[Wayze 549]

Please don't characterize me as unqualified or disinformed, son.

Sorry, but you are. What is even your point? I don't get it, the only thing you did was telling me how some management sh*t works. But what exactly has this to do with how long the game takes to release an alpha and why the developers should announce a release date?

What techniques man? There are no f*cking techniques for this xD

[Max Planck 7174]

I develop drugs, from bench to bedside.  The process far exceeds game development in terms of complexity, has timelines that exceed 10 years, and budgets approaching $1 billion.  When I start a project I have to provide a commitment to my management on a first-patient-in date and a commercial release date.  This is usually before I even know what disease I am targeting.  My target metric for this information is 90% on time.  If I miss too often, my ass gets fired.

 

Please don't characterize me as unqualified or disinformed, son.

 

I'm in health care, I administer the drugs you are making.

You seem to have your sole focus on meeting the target date and I believe the quality of the final product will suffer for it.

 

If you release a game before it is ready, the game will suffer for it too.

 

The difference is, rushed out drugs kill people. A game probably won't.

[Michaelvoodoo25 3120]

I need a date, I need to book holidays broken or not

Ive waited patiently, if it breaks, it breaks, ive waited longer than my child being born!

[rn_max 202]

The history of flawed pharmaceuticals is long and inglorious, but that is another story and largely down to unpleasant side of human nature rather than project management.

 

Perhaps if the wind and piss from all the armchair games industry gurus in these forums was collected and harnessed, the sequel to the SA would almost be out the door by now.

 

:emptycan:

Edited September 20, 2013 by RN_Max

[Dr. Goner 661]

Sorry, but you are. What is even your point? I don't get it, the only thing you did was telling me how some management sh*t works. But what exactly has this to do with how long the game takes to release an alpha and why the developers should announce a release date?

What techniques man? There are no f*cking techniques for this xD

Have you ever had an actual job where you functioned as a subordinate?

[Wayze 549]

Have you ever had an actual job where you functioned as a subordinate?

Yes, why?

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

How am I going to get upset about missed release dates if there are no dates to be missed?!?  Explain that to me smart guys!