Why We Need A Release Date

[Wayze 549]

Having a release date means that the forums are flooded with a ridiculous amount of whinging, should Rocket "fail" to release it on that date.

 

We needn't have a release date. Dean says he will not give one at this moment, either.

 

On that note, please elaborate upon your original post.

Yes, we don't need a release date. However Dean has this weird optimism and gives always hints (maybe not intentionally) that it could release very soon.

 

Recently for example he said they just have to implement the network bubble and that his programmer said it was no big deal. On the other hand he says it could be complicated because they don't know if it works like it's supposed to. Now what do I expect? Of course, rationally I should tell myself it releases in like 3 months, but in reality it is like "Holy sh*t the game could release like next week or something!". Yeah, the time where I get excited about it is pretty much over, anyways there is always this hope in me, that it will release very soon.

Additionally to that, the guy who interviewed Dean recently in the "Near death expirience"-acticle, wrote that the SA will release this fall. So what? It is fall right now, isn't it?

[Rage VG 4033]

Then it seems we are in agreement. They have plenty of free time to innovate upon their current build. Meanwhile the world is playing GTA V and Arma 3. 

Guilty. Playing GTAV as we speak. It was a gift.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I don't know how many studies you are going to require me to post before we can get back on topic of Why We Need A Release Date. 

 

Here's one in detail.

 

http://www.csun.edu/~vcpsy015/APAsample.pdf

Well with that in mind it seems most of us agree with you that deadlines are a good thing and we've also established that the dev team do indeed have deadlines  which really does only leave us to discuss why or why not we think we should be given a release date.

 

I can only speak for myself personally, so I will.  I don't need to be given a release date for 2 reasons.  The first reason is that I'm just happy to wait, simple as that.  I've enjoyed DayZ (although I got bored of the mod months ago) more than any other game in a long time and I don't want to see it rushed as is so often the case with many other games.

 

The second reason is that having followed the development of many games for the last 20 years I know it's rare for a company to actually hit the proposed release dates due to unforseen circumstances and as a result of that I never take them seriously anyway.

 

I personally think that as gamers we should be happy that DayZ is being backed by a company that aren't just going to force a game out to capitalise on the hype initially generated by the mod.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Fraggle

[Dr. Goner 661]

I'm sorry @fraggle, but your opinion is of no consequence on this subject. You're basically on the dev team dude. I frankly don't understand how you could even imagine a scenario where you should offer input on a thread like this. You are a moderator, you are currently playing the pre-alpha. I'm not trying to be rude but I think most of the moderators have been blurring the line between fan and worker for to long. Please quit swaying the conversation with your clearly biased input. I can't figure out a way to ask any nicer.

Edited September 18, 2013 by DrGonzo

[terrvik 2409]

I'm sorry @fraggle, but your opinion is of no consequence on this subject. You're basically on the dev team dude. I frankly don't understand how you could even imagine a scenario where you should offer input on a thread like this. You are a moderator, you are currently playing the pre-alpha. I'm not trying to be rude but I think most of the moderators have been blurring the line between fan and worker for a to long.

 

Ok then. Here are my* opinions on it:

 

Well with that in mind it seems most of us agree with you that deadlines are a good thing and we've also established that the dev team do indeed have deadlines  which really does only leave us to discuss why or why not we think we should be given a release date.

 

I can only speak for myself personally, so I will.  I don't need to be given a release date for 2 reasons.  The first reason is that I'm just happy to wait, simple as that.  I've enjoyed DayZ (although I got bored of the mod months ago) more than any other game in a long time and I don't want to see it rushed as is so often the case with many other games.

 

The second reason is that having followed the development of many games for the last 20 years I know it's rare for a company to actually hit the proposed release dates due to unforseen circumstances and as a result of that I never take them seriously anyway.

 

I personally think that as gamers we should be happy that DayZ is being backed by a company that aren't just going to force a game out to capitalise on the hype initially generated by the mod.

 

*Just imagine I wrote that myself because I agree completely and I'm just a commoner.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I'm sorry @fraggle, but your opinion is of no consequence on this subject. You're basically on the dev team dude. I frankly don't understand how you could even imagine a scenario where you should offer input on a thread like this. You are a moderator, you are currently playing the pre-alpha. I'm not trying to be rude but I think most of the moderators have been blurring the line between fan and worker for to long. Please quit swaying the conversation with your clearly biased input. I can't figure out a way to ask any nicer.

I was wondering when you were going to grind that axe of yours.  All I've done is offered you my honest opinion.  Thankyou for being honest though.

 

Anyhoo, I shall leave you to it.

 

INB4 you resort to calling other people with opposing views fanboys.

[wild_man 4442]

only release date op need is release from forums prison after ban :lol:

[Dr. Goner 661]

That's fine. Don't think I don't understand by now the nature of these forums, I've been here for a little while.

 

By saying we need a release date, I make no assumption on when that could be so please quit saying "im happy to wait". I've been listening to it for almost a year and it means nothing. If they say we're releasing it in two weeks I'm happy, if they say two years, I'm happy. It's not a matter of when, it's a matter of growing a pair and setting a date. 

[Dr. Goner 661]

I was wondering when you were going to grind that axe of yours.  All I've done is offered you my honest opinion.  Thankyou for being honest though.

 

Anyhoo, I shall leave you to it.

 

INB4 you resort to calling other people with opposing views fanboys.

Not trying to be rude, I'm just saying, I already know what your opinion is man. I respect your loyalty but it's like asking a republican what they think of Obama. There's just no point. Fraggle you've been extremely helpful to me personally in the past, but I just don't think you can look at this one from an unbiased viewpoint. Hell man, you are already PLAYING the game.

 

XO

Edited September 18, 2013 by DrGonzo

[Rage VG 4033]

I'm sorry @fraggle, but your opinion is of no consequence on this subject. You're basically on the dev team dude. I frankly don't understand how you could even imagine a scenario where you should offer input on a thread like this. You are a moderator, you are currently playing the pre-alpha. I'm not trying to be rude but I think most of the moderators have been blurring the line between fan and worker for to long. Please quit swaying the conversation with your clearly biased input. I can't figure out a way to ask any nicer.

This is not at all true. The only way that this discussion could be biased is if you cherry-picked the people whom you are considering as "valid", which is what you are doing. ALL of us forum moderators and support admins are just players like you who look forward to the game. The only difference is that we promise a bit of free time to the forum, and if you think we're all playing the pre-alpha as if it's some brilliant and enjoyable near-complete game you are insane. I chose not to play the pre-alpha simply because I'm aware of how bare-bones it is. It's obviously not a game at all at this point, it's just a test. Now you are certainly on the wrong site if you're trying to start a serious debate AND try to dictate whom can and can't express their opinion.

 

I'm really tired of this "Oh he has a staff spot, therefore they are forced to be positive about DayZ" rubbish that is being spread around here, and I'm beginning to see it everywhere. I do not remember agreeing to become a puppet of the devs for my position and I'm sure as hell the same goes for the rest of us. Nothing will make me lose respect for someone faster than disregarding a genuine, valid opinion for a reason as comical as that one.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Rage VG

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Not trying to be rude, I'm just saying, I already know what your opinion is man. I respect your loyalty but it's like asking a republican what they think of Obama. There's just no point. Fraggle you've been extremely helpful to me personally in the past, but I just don't think you can look at this one from an unbiased viewpoint. Hell man, you are already PLAYING the game.

 

XO

Yeh I take your point although I've never really claimed to be unbiased tbh.  Everybody here knows that we as mods are part of the testing team and you're right, that does make us bias in some respects.

 

But please also be aware that I'm a single-minded 35 year old gamer (when I'm not working).  I've come to the conclusions I've made using logic, sense and experience having followed the development of many games for many years.  I'm not a star-struck teenager that wets my bed because occasionally I get to talk to the devs.  I think you also need to understand that in game development terms, testers are the lowest of the low, we're below the lady that comes in at night and switches the lights off and forum moderators are even lower still so saying we're "basically devs" is very innacurate and displays a certain amount of ignorance on your part about the games industry as a whole.

 

If the devs or BIS were to start acting in a way that I thought was irresponsible or in any way shady then I'd be out of here like a shot because I'd be ashamed to be associated with them and in fact I have been critical of them in the past but you obviously missed that.

 

And just in case it's relevant, I've never once been told what I can and can't say on these forums, I only ever speak my mind and you're welcome to take it or leave it, I'd be posting exactly the same thing if I wasn't a mod.  I think the reason you get frosty responses to your posts occasionally is not because of the criticism itself but the tone with which you deliver it, don't take this the wrong way but you can come off as snide or patronising although I know from experience you don't mean to and that your heart is in the right place.  

 

If you look through the forums it's full of criticism although of course the general trend is that people support the devs, that is the case on any official games forum in the world and is to be expected.

 

Anyhoo, cheers for being honest and let's get it back on topic ;)

Edited September 18, 2013 by Fraggle

[erv_za 17]

I hate Parkinson’s Law. It's ruining my life, I was planning to finish my college assignment tonight > :(

 

But to call it a scientific discovery is using the wrong words to describe it.  That's like saying "Moore's Law" is a scientific discovery

 

I would rather call it a law of project management.  While it seems some people didn't at first understand what you were talking about, I am sure Rocket know all these things.  He sometimes confuse people on Reddit because he use the terminology of a project manager. Also, this isn't the first big project Bohemia Interactive is working on.  I haven't heard of them missing release dates like Valve.  A alpha release is different, you can't expect to predict how long things would take when you are still in the beginning stages of a project.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Erv_za

[Dr. Goner 661]

This is not at all true. The only way that this discussion could be biased is if you cherry-picked the people whom you are considering as "valid", which is what you are doing. ALL of us forum moderators and support admins are just players like you who look forward to the game. The only difference is that we promise a bit of free time to the forum, and if you think we're all playing the pre-alpha as if it's some brilliant and enjoyable near-complete game you are insane. I chose not to play the pre-alpha simply because I'm aware of how bare-bones it is. It's obviously not a game at all at this point, it's just a test. Now you are certainly on the wrong site if you're trying to start a serious debate AND try to dictate whom can and can't express their opinion.

 

I'm really tired of this "Oh he has a staff spot, therefore they are forced to be positive about DayZ" rubbish that is being spread around here, and I'm beginning to see it everywhere. I do not remember agreeing to become a puppet of the devs for my position and I'm sure as hell the same goes for the rest of us. Nothing will make me lose respect for someone faster than disregarding a genuine, valid opinion for a reason as comical as that one.

This is true, but the simple fact is you all tow the line. I mean seriously how can anyone argue at this point that they don't want a release date. I've just come to see most dissent met with sarcasm or pure rudeness, especially concerning the moderators. If you legitimately think I'm crazy, I'll leave the forums now, but I won't do so before I say that some of the moderators have become so close to the project that they can't stand back and take a look at it from a normal players perspective. I'm sorry if this hurts as the truth often does. 

 

I hate to say it and I'm sure you'll have no problem pointing out the weakness in this logic, but you're doing it right now for crying out loud. My initial post stated that I think We Need A Release Date in order to give the developers a solid goal to meet. Just to keep everyone on track here. I think it's hilarious that as soon as I mentioned that people are like "shut up you'll get it when you get it" or "im happy to wait and you're a moron for not feeling like I do" yet here I sit ostracized to the point of people talking about banning me for my opinion. In fact, I'm proud to be a dissenting member of the forums. Dissent equals growth and evolution. I've never resulted to name calling and I feel that my ideas are, more often than not, posted in a clear and concise manner.

[Dr. Goner 661]

I hate Parkinson’s Law. It's ruining my life, I was planning to finish my college assignment tonight > :(

 

But to call it a scientific discovery is using the wrong words to describe it.  That's like saying "Moore's Law" is a scientific discovery

 

I would rather call it a law of project management.  While it seems some people didn't at first understand what you were talking about, I am sure Rocket know all these things.  He sometimes confuse people on Reddit because he use the terminology of a project manager. Also, this isn't the first big project Bohemia Interactive is working on.  I haven't heard of them missing release dates like Valve.  A alpha release is different, you can't expect to predict how long things would take when you are still in the beginning stages of a project.

Jesus man, I just posted two journal articles that prove Parkinson's law empirically. Please read the thread and do your research before commenting. It is, in fact, science. It is often studied by behavioral psychologists. So yes, it is quite different than say Murphy's Law. Parkinson wrote a peer reviewed article on the subject citing sources and a study that was accepted by the scientific community.

 

EDIT: @fraggle This post of mine proves your point about my dickishness. I'm seriously sorry man, you are one of my favorite mods and always tell it like it is. I can be a pompous ass sometimes.

Edited September 18, 2013 by DrGonzo

[Rage VG 4033]

I mean seriously how can anyone argue at this point that they don't want a release date.

I'm going on the assumption that your whole post is on this. Nobody is saying that they don't want a release date. There's no reason nobody would like to have a release date. No, the question was (and you can check the title as you have put it), "We NEED a release date", which we simply do not. This is coming from both people who have and haven't played the Pre-Alpha, Admins and mods and regular members. There is simply no need. Just like how I do not NEED a 42" Television, but I sure as hell would really like one and it would be very handy.

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

Well, there is no real "need" of any release date.

 

Once the SA is on the market some potential buyers will look at the price, the quality, the alternatives and simply decide to buy or not. Others will buy no matter what - it is a free country.

 

However, from a more ... concrete point of view as I work in the software industry for a living, the crap "it is ready when it is ready" does not cut the mustard anywhere in the business.

 

Nobody with a sane mind would give an overall estimate for a complex project such as a modern computer game by saying "OK it will take 18 months give or take 2 and it will costs 2.4 mUSD", but a competent team would work for extended periods to break down the tasks in more manageable chunks, then add contingencies and "plan b" options then add buffers, extended periods of testing and so on. This is usually easier for a 2nd generation project (SA is the re-writing/re-engineering of something that exists already, albeit in a more primitive form) and the SA team has the advantage to use the dayz mod as a playground/mock-up/proof-of-concept environment to put forward ideas, test features and so on... They are in a luckier position compared to others.

 

But regardless of the fact  they may use a straight waterfall approach to work on the development (I hope not, nobody is using that since 10 years or so because totally unrealistic) or a more agile (e.g. SCRUM based, peer-programming, XP, ...) way of working they have received a budget to work on the project and are expected to deliver at a certain point.

 

Whether this date is known to us or not, that's another issue. But rest assured such a limit (be it a certain amount of time, money or both) exists.

 

If I had a software engineer in one of my teams telling me "Uh, this task I received, well, I think it is ready when it is ready" I would simply tell him "Ok son, understood - you'll also get your next salary slip when your task is ready " and this usually works: estimating the amount of effort required to do something is a measure of your professionalism as a software engineer. Your peers will judge you on that as well.

 

_Anubis_

 

 

[SmashT 10907]

They do use SCRUM btw and do a review / usually brief us with a devblog at the end of each sprint.

[Dr. Goner 661]

I'm going on the assumption that your whole post is on this. Nobody is saying that they don't want a release date. There's no reason nobody would like to have a release date. No, the question was (and you can check the title as you have put it), "We NEED a release date", which we simply do not. This is coming from both people who have and haven't played the Pre-Alpha, Admins and mods and regular members. There is simply no need. Just like how I do not NEED a 42" Television, but I sure as hell would really like one and it would be very handy.

And this get's to the point of my actual post, I'm arguing that we do in fact need one because it will give the team a concrete date by which to have the job done. I've cited peer reviewed journals on Parkinson's law, noted the set date for the lunar landing, and made several other relevant points as to why we all do NEED a release date, but even now, some community members aren't picking up what I'm putting down. I'll say it again Why We Need A Release Date. Because work expands to fill the time you allow for it. 

Edited September 18, 2013 by DrGonzo

[Dr. Goner 661]

 

If I had a software engineer in one of my teams telling me "Uh, this task I received, well, I think it is ready when it is ready" I would simply tell him "Ok son, understood - you'll also get your next salary slip when your task is ready " and this usually works: estimating the amount of effort required to do something is a measure of your professionalism as a software engineer. Your peers will judge you on that as well.

 

_Anubis_

 

Damn Straight. It's called accountability. Sometimes you have to set this up for yourself. Which is why we need a release date. It would benefit the developers more than the player base if they took it very seriously.

[Inception. 9443]

We don't need a release date. It isn't going to change the quality of game for us. Us not having a release date isn't going to kill anyone, nor is not having the Standalone.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Inception.

[SmashT 10907]

Internal targets ≠ public release date

You're assuming that because they don't have a public release date that they have no internal dates but they do have an internal functionality target and timeline. A public release date just isn't going to happen as there is no need for them to put themselves in that position.

 

Why not set a date? Because we don't need too, and we don't want to force something out with a glaring game breaking bug just because we set a date, when we didn't need to in the first place.

 

In Scrum fashion, the estimates and method for completing work comes from those actually doing it. Once functionality is completed, committed to the build. It is then tested. The results of this testing gets fixed. Estimating how long it takes to develop this functionality is relatively straightforward, but estimating the resulting fixes to achieve stable expected operation of that functionality is very difficult. Consequently, we can be on track to complete functionality but not be sure how much rework may be involved. Sometimes it is nothing, sometimes it can involve redoing everything. Unfortunately, we are at a stage in development where this foundation is critically important to get right.

I've been asked in the past, when I "expected" it to release, and I've given my opinion. I won't make that mistake again. So I'll now stick with the official position of "there is no release date" and I won't offer my opinions or inside targets about when I think it will be out. Sorry for the confusion that caused.  

While I do use the estimates I'm provided, I'm the sole person fully and completely responsible for setting the timeline and any messaging (fuckups) that result from that. Scrum doesn't allow me to pass the buck on that one...

Edited September 18, 2013 by SmashT

[Aporis 422]

But we have a release date: The date is called before 2020 confirmed. :)

[erv_za 17]

...Murphy's Law. Parkinson wrote a peer reviewed article on the subject citing sources and a study that was accepted by the scientific community.

I said Moore's law, but what I meant was calling it a scientific discovery makes it sound like a law of nature.  That might be why some people didn't take what you said seriously (I'm not one of them btw.)

 

But on second thought, this would fall under the "social sciences".  So you aren't wrong,  I just think people struggle to catch your point because of word choice.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Quotes from Rocket.

 

I guess really that answers everything tbh.  It's from the horses mouth, no speculation needed.

[mercules 1290]

 I mean seriously how can anyone argue at this point that they don't want a release date. 

 

Very easily, some of us have years of experience anticipating game releases and watching development teams either miss dates or presenting an unfinished product just to make such dates that we have come to understand that a release date isn't a solid date or actually relevant to when the software will actually be done. We also realize that a release data on a very unfinished alpha is kinda silly. Some of us work in the software publishing business and have seen the process in action and understand that it is more common for those dates to get pushed back than from them to be met and so already know that it will get done when it gets done. 

 

Now a very generous late release date to give them more time than they will ever need falls under the principle you are quoting and so is a bad idea, as is one that causes them to cram things together haphazard or publish late. So really the "win" scenario for them is, "Be patient and we will release it as soon as we think it is ready."