Character Value - skillsystem, statistic...

[Wayze 549]

As we all know, Dean is right know working on how to make the character you play valuable to you besides the gear he is wearing. The problem is that for example if someone is robbing you, you have no point to surrender. He would steal your gear and after that you would just be at the beginning.

 

This is really restricting the player interaction, because your life is not important to you, it is just the gear you carry. That means we need something what makes the lose of a character hurtful, even if he lost all his gear.

 

How could we manage that? There are two options I can think of right now, these are surely not new ideas and I will just present them again.

 

Statistics

This one is pretty simple, but has a few disadvantages. Whatever you do in a characters life is recorded:

The number of players, zombie and animals you killed. The time you have survived. The number of vehicles you have repaired. The number of people you have treated etc. etc.

These statistics would then go into something like an account, recording everything you do. You could compare this to others and like in Battlefield or Call of Duty you would have some kind of motivation. It would be some kind of Highscores list for every aspect of the game.

 

But like I said there are disadvantages:

- many people do not care about statistics, including me

- it would be kind of immersion breaking having statistics in the game

- the motivation for killing others could be statistics (increased Deathmatch-KoS)

- maybe the statistic would not work out like they are supposed to

 

 

Skillsystem

This is something I really would like to have in the standalone. It is pretty simple, everything your characters does has impact to some attributes.

 

There are so many things I could think of:

- repairing vehicles, clothes, equipment, weapons etc.

- crafting (from gadgets to all kinds of weapons)

- making food

- using different kinds of medical treatments on others or yourself

- running (the more you run the faster you run if your

- aiming (the more you aim the better you do)

- swimming

- making a fire

- driving a car/flying a helicopter

- gutting an animal

- mental state (if you survived longer you don't panic as much if you are hurt, you don't shake as much as others)

 

This would get DayZ into a whole new level. Just imagine, if you play the game and you found a broken car, but you need someone who actually is able to repair the care decently, you would have to search for someone like this or just learn it.

Let us stay with the repair example. If you want to repair the motor, maybe it is something more difficult. When you try to do it the game gives you feedback like "You are not sure if you can do that, do you want to try anyway?". If you try to do that the motor could break, but you have learned something. Maybe you do it 10 times and it worked like 2 times. But after these 10 times (this is just an example) you would increase that skill. So next time you try to repair a motor it would ask you "You feel confident that you are able to do that, do you want to try?". If you do it like 50 times it will ask "You know what you are doing, do you want to try?". The better your skill is the higher the chance is that it will work and not break the item. Maybe before you can repair a helicopter you would have to repair many other things, because otherwise it would destroy the heli parts with a 98% chance or something.

I think you get the idea, it could work everywhere. If you bandage yourself maybe the bleeding does not stop fully, after doing it a few times you get a higher chance to bandage yourself well. If you want to remove a bullet from yourself you would have to have way lesser chances to do it without hurting yourself (or others if you try to help someone) if you have no expirience in the medical skills.

Aiming the same, if you want to aim with a sniperrifle if would be very difficult at the beginning. The more you aim the steadier it gets.

Also there could be items which maybe increase the chance of doing something with success. A special bandage increases the chance of stopping the bleeding. Skills and certain items would effect the probablities to do things.

 

 

What would this do to the game? Well, at first there would be things way more important than gear. If you want to fly a helicopter you need someone able to repair it, it doesn't matter how well you are geared. So now you have something to do. You either can go and repair things for hours until you are well skilled or you go and search for someone who is able to do that. You go into cherno and ask for people who can help you. This would change the way people interact with each other in such a way we never saw in DayZ. People would group up and act way more realistic. Skills are something that are very valuable in a survival scenario. But what is another player able to do for you right know in DayZ? You can group up and the only thing you get from it is more manpower and maybe some medical treatments. If we had a skillssystem every member in a group would be very important and essential. Someone who is able to repair a helicopter would have to be protected, if you want to repair a heli. People would probably talk way more with each other, team up and build groups.

Besides all this there would be a very positive effect to the value of your own character. If you survived 10 hours, being able to repair a helicopter or crafting a cool silencer you would do everything to survive. You don't give a sh*t about your gear. If a group surrounds you, you will put your weapon down and beg for mercy. I mean, it would be so much more immersive. How would you feel if you lose a character you spend days, weeks or maybe months? It would really create the kind of feeling you would also have if your life is in danger (probably not near as extreme but anyway kind of the same). You just don't want to die, you will give the other guy all you have just to let your character live. Also you would be very careful in everything you do, because naturally you do not want to die.

 

I think such a system would increase the expirience of the game so much and make it even more immersive. It would be very simple to implement into the standalone, even I as an amature programmer would know how to manage this.

But I realise there are also some negative aspects:

- the game would be more frustrating, maybe people would even cry because of losing their characters

- after death you would have to achieve the skills you need again, if you want to repair a helicopter you would either have to find another player or again spend hours in repairing things

 

But this would get the game into a point where endgame is way harder to reach. Just flying a helicopter would be a huge attempt. Having someone who is able to repair a helicopter and then having someone who is able to fly it would be so much difficult than right know.

 

 

Like I said I know these ideas are not new, but I really don't know why people are talking about this. It is something so essential and one or probably the core element of the game. So how do you think should Dean manage this? Maybe you have some other ideas how to make a character valuable or you don't even want that to happen.

 

 

Let the discussion begin.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Wayze

[Statik (DayZ) 2695]

Skillsystem

There's no skill system in the Standalone.

 

That's it. That's all. People need to stop posting about one.

[Wayze 549]

There's no skill system in the Standalone.

 

That's it. That's all. People need to stop posting about one.

I would not be sure about this. Dean was talking about a skillsystem like in RPGs, where you have to decide on a class and then spend your skillpoints on different attributes.

 

Also Dean is having a hard time and I really don't think there is any other solution for this huge problem he has. It is a core element and we should not underrastemate it. If you want a deathmatch, probably you do not want a skillsystem like that.

 

Also this is a discussion. If you do not like the idea you can write down why. If you have another idea you can write it down here. This is about solving a huge problem, which effects every single one of us in the game.

Saying "There will be no skill system!!" is not very constructive.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Wayze

[Statik (DayZ) 2695]

I would not be sure about this. Dean was talking about a skillsystem like in RPGs, where you have to decide on a class and then spend your skillpoints on different attributes.

That is completely immersion breaking, and I have never heard Dean talk about that. Please link me to a source of him talking about it.

[Wayze 549]

That is completely immersion breaking, and I have never heard Dean talk about that. Please link me to a source of him talking about it.

Somewhere on reddit, he actually said he does not want to have classes or something like that. However he never talked about what a skillsystem I described.

 

And why is it completely immersion breaking? It is actually adding lots of immersion and realism.

[wild_man 4442]

dayz skill system??

 

is already exist this one ;)

 

skill for avoid aggro

skill for find nice loot

skill for shoot player

skill for stay hide

skill for drive without crash

skill for see other guy before he seeing you

skill for know where is this place :thumbsup:  :D

 

 

all skill is inside player, not some illusion on character don't mean nothing :huh:

 

edit I give beans for OP, I don't agree idea but he make great post for explain

Edited September 15, 2013 by KoS

[Wayze 549]

dayz skill system??

 

is already exist this one ;)

 

skill for avoid aggro

skill for find nice loot

skill for shoot player

skill for stay hide

skill for drive without crash

skill for see other guy before he seeing you

skill for know where is this place :thumbsup:  :D

 

 

all skill is inside player, not some illusion on character don't mean nothing :huh:

 

edit I give beans for OP, I don't agree idea but he make great post for explain

It is not about the illusion, it is about solving a problem. Like Dean said, characters do mean nothing to the players because they are meaningless. The only things that are from value in the game are the weapons and the gear.

We need something to change that, even if it is just an illusion.

 

Anyway, thanks for the beans. ^^

[wild_man 4442]

someone make suggest before

 

make so fresh spawn is 50% health/blood, maybe 25% food/water ;)

 

make so is take time and efforts to get health back to maximum

 

this make player don't want to die when he have full healths everything for survive etc. :o

 

for me is enough when you adding lose gear and start on beach :)

[Wayze 549]

someone make suggest before

 

make so fresh spawn is 50% health/blood, maybe 25% food/water ;)

 

make so is take time and efforts to get health back to maximum

 

this make player don't want to die when he have full healths everything for survive etc. :o

 

for me is enough when you adding lose gear and start on beach :)

I don't think this will work. People just get used to it. If it happend like 2 times to me I wouldn't give a sh*t anymore. And additionally I don't think it would be logical, why would you punish someone for dying? The death should be the punishment, not some handicaps.

 

My question what exactly do you have against a skill system? It is very authentic and just a logical addition to the game.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Wayze

[Statik (DayZ) 2695]

Somewhere on reddit, he actually said he does not want to have classes or something like that. However he never talked about what a skillsystem I described.

 

And why is it completely immersion breaking? It is actually adding lots of immersion and realism.

Applying "skillpoints" isn't realistic. Your skill should come from your own head, not from points in a game.

 

Can you please link me to him saying this? I've never heard rocket talk about skillpoints...

[wild_man 4442]

I don't think this will work. People just get used to it. If it happend like 2 times to me I wouldn't give a sh*t anymore. And additionally I don't think it would be logical, why would you punish someone for dying? The death should be the punishment, not some handicaps.

 

is not punish nobody

 

is make game challenge fight for survive from first moment ;)

 

They add more complicate health mechanic in SA, so maybe health is not just blood but you have way for slowly building good health for strong player.

 

example if you eat good things, running every place carry heavy item your character becoming more healthy and strong. :)

 

So is realism mechanic, is fair mechanic because all guys have choice to improve player health. :thumbsup:  :D

 

Maybe you get so is possible sprint longer and carry more heavy things for more distance before tired etc

 

This way all player invest more in character and value more for this. ;)

[applejaxc 2500]

That is completely immersion breaking, and I have never heard Dean talk about that. Please link me to a source of him talking about it.

 

He's mentioned it a couple of times, but he's very careful about it; he knows that if he words it wrong, everyone is going to hate him. His ideas are like subtle animation changes or making slightly less noise when moving, but nothing spectacular like "A level 4 survivor can shoot fireballs"

[Wayze 549]

is not punish nobody

 

is make game challenge fight for survive from first moment ;)

 

They add more complicate health mechanic in SA, so maybe health is not just blood but you have way for slowly building good health for strong player.

 

example if you eat good things, running every place carry heavy item your character becoming more healthy and strong. :)

 

So is realism mechanic, is fair mechanic because all guys have choice to improve player health. :thumbsup:  :D

 

Maybe you get so is possible sprint longer and carry more heavy things for more distance before tired etc

 

This way all player invest more in character and value more for this. ;)

But I can do everything with such an character as with another one. I don't need anyone to help me. If I die I just got a little bit less health? Who cares, it is enough to repair a heli and to shot another guy. It does not change the game in anyway I think.

 

But my questions again, what do you have against such an system? It is just how it works in real life. The more often you do something, the better you get in doing it. Why shouldn't it be like that in the game?

[Statik (DayZ) 2695]

"A level 4 survivor can shoot fireballs"

That's because level 4 is easy to get. That should at least be level six.

[wild_man 4442]

what do you have against such an system? It is just how it works in real life. The more often you do something, the better you get in doing it. Why shouldn't it be like that in the game?

 

if I learn how to make crafting somethings in game I don't forget after I die :huh:

 

I don't know stats for this but average player life on dayz is maybe 6 hour?

 

So every 6 hour you need again to learn somethings? :|

 

is make game boring and don't feel like realism

[joe_mcentire 2074]

worth to take a look at:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/120173-on-game-design-progression-through-equipment-and-a-system-of-micro-skills/

 

That is completely immersion breaking, and I have never heard Dean talk about that. Please link me to a source of him talking about it.

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/120173-on-game-design-progression-through-equipment-and-a-system-of-micro-skills/?p=1207095

and

http://www.pcpowerplay.com.au/2013/02/survival-of-the-fittest-dayz-standalone-extended-interview/

 

 

And additionally I don't think it would be logical, why would you punish someone for dying? The death should be the punishment, not some handicaps.

because dying alone (at least right now in the mod) is not really a punishment imo. you can easily "overcome" the nuisance of dying.

Edited September 15, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[Wayze 549]

if I learn how to make crafting somethings in game I don't forget after I die :huh:

 

I don't know stats for this but average player life on dayz is maybe 6 hour?

 

So every 6 hour you need again to learn somethings? :|

 

is make game boring and don't feel like realism

Ofcourse you forget everything if you die, because you simply don't get a second chance. And why would it make the game boring? Isn't it boring if I learn everything in 20 hours and then have explored the whole game with all its features? Why is that exciting?

The longer you survive the better you get in certain things, if you die you have to do it again, but there is always the motivation to get even further than before. But the most important thing is that you don't want to die. You are right, the avarage player life in dayz is pretty low. But why is that? Because player simply do not care about the characters. They just want to find some cool gear and kill other players.

If you have really something to lose you don't want to die, so you do everything you can to survive. Now tell me, what would you do in real life if 3 guys are pointing a gun at you?

Would you surrender and give them everything they want? Sure you would do that, because you want to stay alive!

But what do you do in DayZ? You shot! Why? Because all you can lose is your gear, the character is just an empty vessle carrying the loot.

 

This is the problem we have to solve, if you got a good idea, present it. But I just can't find any other than some sort of skill system...

 

 

That's because level 4 is easy to get. That should at least be level six.

I don't think that you get the idea of the skill system, there simply are no level.

 

 

 

 

worth to take a look:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/120173-on-game-design-progression-through-equipment-and-a-system-of-micro-skills/

 

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/120173-on-game-design-progression-through-equipment-and-a-system-of-micro-skills/?p=1207095

and

http://www.pcpowerplay.com.au/2013/02/survival-of-the-fittest-dayz-standalone-extended-interview/

 

 

 

because dying alone (at least right now in the mod) is not really a punishment imo. you can easily "overcome" the nuisance of dying.

Finally someone who understands what I mean. Yes, the idea is not new, but I just do not understand why it is so lost in the community. It seems nobody cares about it, Dean is talking about "working on a solution" but it kind of sounds like "there is simply no other solution than the skill idea". What I do not get is why people do not like that idea?

People are talking about third and first person view over 100 pages and this topic gets at max 3 pages. What the hell?

Edited September 15, 2013 by Wayze

[wild_man 4442]

 

The longer you survive the better you get in certain things, if you die you have to do it again, but there is always the motivation to get even further than before. But the most important thing is that you don't want to die

 

more complicate health system doing this also but don't stop player doing what he want :D

 

I agree make life more value, death more pain.

 

But skill level is not good way for dayz, I prefer health way :)

 

If you are strong maybe you have better way for fight infection

 

Maybe you running better and faster so is big difference, I don't mean super fast like comic but perfect health guy Vs almost dead guy is big difference for sure, for everything like run, shoot etc.   :thumbsup:  ;)

[Wayze 549]

more complicate health system doing this also but don't stop player doing what he want :D

 

I agree make life more value, death more pain.

 

But skill level is not good way for dayz, I prefer health way :)

 

If you are strong maybe you have better way for fight infection

 

Maybe you running better and faster so is big difference, I don't mean super fast like comic but perfect health guy Vs almost dead guy is big difference for sure, for everything like run, shoot etc.   :thumbsup:  ;)

But why would I care about my health? Obviously I can survive without this health, but it doesn't help me in any way but combat.

 

You say it should not prevent players from what the want. But it doesn't. If you want to fly a helicopter you need the parts. Does the fact that you don't have the parts from the beginning mean that the lootsystem prevents you from doing it? No, you go and search for the loot.

The same with the skill system, if you want to fly a heli you need to skill yourself or find someone else to do that. You cannot just go and repair what you want, because that is not how it works and I really don't think it should work like that in the game.

This would just create realistic character builds, everyone is able to specialise himself in doing something, like in real life. If you see someone else you don't just shoot him, he is a human, maybe he is able to help you in something. If it is just the gear another person is able to give you, there is no reason to spare his life.

 

We just need something that makes a naked veteran character from value and a health system is surely not enough.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Wayze

[OfficerRaymond 2067]

That is completely immersion breaking, and I have never heard Dean talk about that. Please link me to a source of him talking about it.

Well, I do agree with the OP in regards to characters not being valuable. If rocket wants us to actually CARE about dying, something needs to be added to make us care about our lives in-game. If this doesn't happen, the SA will merely turn into what the mod has become, PvP focused.

 

While I don't agree with a 'skill system' per sae, I do however agree with an 'experience' system. I'm not talking a menu with attributes and skills, but in real life when people do things for a long time, they learn how to do it better/faster. Ex:

• If you spend a certain amount of time fixing things, you can do it faster than a fresh avatar.
• If you spend so long reloading, you can do it faster than someone who hasn't
• If you gut and hunt a lot of animals, you should be able to do it faster.

This could be applied to EVERYTHING in-game, and in such a subtle way that the advantages aren't all that much better, but to a point that they actually make you value your life in-game. I'm also a big fan of aging, dirtiness, and physical degradation. Without these concepts, we're just playing the mod without high end military weapons and graphical tweaks. Nobody will end up giving two shits about the person they are playing as, and it'll turn into the mod re-done. I don't care what anyone in the game or forum argues, there is NO value of a character in the mod besides the gear.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

one main aspect is to create a certain understanding that skills don't have to be like you get with games like WOW or the like. I think there can be huge possibilities. ppl tend to wear their blinders when they hear "skills". but i guess it is up to "skill-advocates" to bring up well developed ideas and examples, that's why i highly recommend my prior posted links and its predecessor.

[wild_man 4442]

But why would I care about my health? Obviously I can survive without this health, but it doesn't help me in any way but combat.

 

You say it should not prevent players from what the want. But it doesn't. If you want to fly a helicopter you need the parts. Does the fact that you don't have the parts from the beginning mean that the lootsystem prevents you from doing it? No, you go and search for the loot.

The same with the skill system, if you want to fly a heli you need to skill yourself or find someone else to do that. You cannot just go and repair what you want, because that is not how it works and I really don't think it should work like that.

 

look, if you are weak guy, don't eat good things never running, never push body you have too many problem :(

 

everything in human body is system, one system for everything

 

example eyesight is affect, ability to hold big heavy gun for long time is affect, time for recover after run is affect, how long you stay strong no food is affect.

 

If SA health system make so is take days and too much good luck to become true fit strong guy then you have something every guy want, you have true nature advantage ;)

 

Survival of fittest. :thumbsup: ;)  

 

This should be dayz SA name

Edited September 15, 2013 by KoS

[Wayze 549]

Well, I do agree with the OP in regards to characters not being valuable. If rocket wants us to actually CARE about dying, something needs to be added to make us care about our lives in-game. If this doesn't happen, the SA will merely turn into what the mod has become, PvP focused.

 

While I don't agree with a 'skill system' per sae, I do however agree with an 'experience' system. I'm not talking a menu with attributes and skills, but in real life when people do things for a long time, they learn how to do it better/faster. Ex:

• If you spend a certain amount of time fixing things, you can do it faster than a fresh avatar.
• If you spend so long reloading, you can do it faster than someone who hasn't
• If you gut and hunt a lot of animals, you should be able to do it faster.

This could be applied to EVERYTHING in-game, and in such a subtle way that the advantages aren't all that much better, but to a point that they actually make you value your life in-game. I'm also a big fan of aging, dirtiness, and physical degradation. Without these concepts, we're just playing the mod without high end military weapons and graphical tweaks. Nobody will end up giving two shits about the person they are playing as, and it'll turn into the mod re-done. I don't care what anyone in the game or forum argues, there is NO value of a character in the mod besides the gear.

Yes, at first I thought also about something like that. But keep in mind, if what you lose is not very valuable you won't care. If it is just doing something faster, it is not something special. Sure, I can gut a animal faster, but I don't need that right? I can do it slowly, it won't hurt. I can fix something slowing, there is enough time, especially in DayZ.

 

Like the healthsystem KoS was talking about, I don't think that doing something faster is enough to create a real value for a character. I still will shoot everyone on sight, why wouldn't I? At best the other guy could repair a heli faster than me, but I can do it alone.

 

You know what I mean? I think this should be really testet out in the alpha, because that is what an alpha is for. Test a view ways and look what works best.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

there is NO value of a character in the mod besides the gear.

one BIG issue and the one constant thing i criticize about Dean all the time ;). progression through gear solely is outrageous

[Wayze 549]

look, if you are weak guy, don't eat good things never running, never push body you have too many problem :(

 

everything in human body is system, one system for everything

 

example eyesight is affect, ability to hold big heavy gun for long time is affect, time for recover after run is affect, how long you stay strong no food is affect.

 

If SA health system make so is take days and too much good luck to become true fit strong guy then you have something every guy want, you have true nature advantage ;)

 

Survival of fittest. :thumbsup: ;)  

 

This should be dayz SA name

Do you know why we humans actually are where we are right now? It is not because we are "fit" but because we skilled ourselfs, because we learned things. It is not the health that distinguishes us from the animals, it is our skills.

 

Actually survival of the fittest means more like "Survival or the individual which fits best in his enviourment".

Edited September 15, 2013 by Wayze