First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[SmashT 10907]

This thread is called "first V third person discussion" yes ?

I am talking about the two play styles 1st V 3rd and weather either need "fixing" at all .

Others and yourself have jumped straight past the topic at hand , decided 3rd person needs fixing as opposed to fixing 1st person and are trying to point this Thread in a predetermined direction .

All im saying is we have options , alternatives , to butchering a play style the vast majorite like .

Its like talking about building a house and oh we'll talk about the foundations later .

cheers

 

I don't decide if something is a problem, the developers do. My personal viewpoint is largely irrelevant given the developers have already acknowledged a problem exists and have proposed a number of solutions but by all means continue this circular argument over first vs third person.

[SMLE 39]

What is DayZ about then?

(Also, I stated no where that DayZ is all about the realism, even though it is. The realism in DayZ is what distinguishes it from just another Left 4 Dead wanna-be)

I think , I may be wrong but I think DayZ will be about survival in a post zombie apocalypse world with all the health , hunger , fighting and adventure that entails , realism is important in the mix as well as pvp combat but neither will be the be all end all of Dayz .

these are only my hopes , weather the game is experienced in 1st person or 3rd person should be a players choice as it is now in the mod .

cheers

[SMLE 39]

I don't decide if something is a problem, the developers do. My personal viewpoint is largely irrelevant given the developers have already acknowledged a problem exists and have proposed a number of solutions but by all means continue this circular argument over first vs third person.

And what brought the devs to the conclusion there is a problem ? was it their own thoughts or pressure from parts of the community not representing the full story ? I guess we just don't know unless Mr Hall enlightens us .

You personal viewpoint is important even thought you are a blue name :P /joke , they have acknowledged a problem is there but is the problem as big as they think or has it been blown out of all proportion by some people in the 1st person camp , sometimes by fixing a small problem you creat a bigger one , and when the problem can be overted easily in the first place .

Don't fix what is not broken for the vast majority of players .

OK ive had my say thankyou for giving me space on your boards to post my opinion , ill leave you in peace :)

cheers gentlemen good gameing .

Oh and SmashT even with those glasses on I know who you are Mr Archer .

Edited August 29, 2013 by SMLE

[iashford 73]

What people need to realise is there's no right or wrong way in playing the game, it just comes down to preference. As long as people have the option to play it there own way with people like them, then what's the issue? I believe the wall peeking aspect of third person does need some work. In saying that, I find third person far more immersive. I see my character in the world, I see how they react. If I'm injured, visually, I can see that and it puts me in a tense mode. If they are shot, I can see where I got shot since I can't feel it. Seeing my avatar in rags immerses me into the world. First person makes me feel sick and doesn't give me as much senses as I would in the real world. People have a right to their opinion, but people do not have the right to tell me when, how and why I am immersed and allowed to experience something.

This issue will be fixed. Even if the game sticks with just third and first person only servers, 6 months after release, no one will care. Everyone will have realised they can stick to what they love and find comfort in their own environment

[dsi24 227]

DayZ's primary selling feature is the authentic experience of survival and the emotions, such as: Fear, greed, paranoia, desperation, which you can experience in both first and third person.

Throwing the bullshit flag on the field here, thirdperson gets rid of the unknown, getting rid of fear.

 

If you're going to argue for third person, be consistent, don't say things that don't make sense. If you find it hard to say things that make sense, maybe you need to rethink your position.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Dsi1

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

But isn't the primary problem with third person, that first person players joins third person servers instead of first person servers?

 

I don't have any problem with with people peeking around corners, because I'm always constantly on the move in populated areas and I constantly change direction at every corner and I constantly avoid tall buildings or other advantageous sniper positions to the so inclined. My survivability has nothing to do with third person, but rather how I travel along concealed corridors and generally present a hard and fleeting target.

 

First or third person, if you're a sitting duck, you're a sitting duck.

No, the problem is that currently the way 3rd person can be used is detrimental to gameplay, for EVERYONE.  That's not my opinion on play-styles or which cam I prefer using, just a sensible observation which nobody has really countered yet.

 

Dallas, you're an intelligent guy and I know you've played Arma for many years (since OFP?) and also DayZ for a very long time the same as I have.  Please explain to me as best you can how having every rooftop, window (of which there are many more in the SA), wall, large rock or any other type of cover as a potential point for a player to literally sit behind in complete safety while observing his/her surroundings without any risk of either detection or harm is not detrimental to gameplay?

 

It's a genuine question btw because in 54 pages I haven't seen one post that explains why it's good for the game (I don't mean the cam I mean the "exploit").  Even if you don't consider it an exploit then humour me and just consider the actual gameplay itself, nothing else.

 

I explained at length earlier in this thread just one situation (of many) where the way TPC can currently be used gives players in certain situations an unfair advantage and effects the game negatively.  It was largely ignored by the peeps that can't see the issue and the so far the best argument to say it isn't an issue is that "everyone can do it" which both ignores the issue completely and spectacularly misses the whole point.

 

It's not just detrimental to PVP players, it's detrimental to every single person that plays the game.  If every street in Cherno/Electro (just one example) that is overlooked by countless vantage points has the pontential for a quite literally invisible person to sit there scoping out the area without having to physically expose themselves whilst doing so then it changes the actual gameplay dynamics in quite a fundamental (and frustrating) way.

 

As I explained in my other post about it, the only sensible tactical choice while this is an issue is to avoid those places altogether because however good I am or however aware I am of my surroundings I'm simply placing my safety in the lap of the gods and have to cross my fingers when I enter one of those areas.  Of course it should be risky, but I should at least be able to use my eyes to scan potential danger points, while this issue persists that is pointless.  They (the observer) just has to wait until my back is turned, pop up, kill me and return to safety (and invisibility).

 

If that's not a bad thing to have in the game then I don't know what is.

 

I REPEAT:  I'm not arguing for the removal of the cam, I'm not forcing a playstyle on anyone,  I'm not being a hipster, I don't need to discuss authenticity, immersion or any of the other red herrings that keep steering this topic conveniently away from this glaring issue.

 

There may not be an answer that is actually practical but to just brush it off whilst failing to see the issue honestly baffles me.  The devs have identified that is is an issue, whether it can be addressed or not is a different question and it may be the case that there is no practical solution, if that's the case I can live with that but to just pretend it isn't an issue just seems crazy to me.

 

If there's a fairly simple way of improving the game for everyone that plays it then of course it at least needs to be looked at.

 

(P.S - I'm asking you specifically Dallas because I genuinely respect your opinion and know you won't just come back with a flippant, sarcastic or overly defensive remark)

Edited August 29, 2013 by Fraggle

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

I am lost about the reason why the fighting goes on.... What's wrong in the solution proposed by the mods a few pages above?

 

Here it is again, with a bit of irony:

 

1. 3dp off servers for: hardcore/real men/purists/elitists/talibans/hipsters/...

2. 3dp on with "changes" servers for: wannabes hardcore or half pussies

3  3dp on as todays servers for: pussies, carebears, "hello kitty" players/...

 

To be clear: I will belong either to 2 (depending on the "changes") or 3 - I am not man enough to be hardcore  :D

 

Cheers,

 

_Anubis_

[iashford 73]

I am lost about the reason why the fighting goes on.... What's wrong in the solution proposed by the mods a few pages above?

Here it is again, with a bit of irony:

1. 3dp off servers for: hardcore/real men/purists/elitists/talibans/hipsters/...

2. 3dp on with "changes" servers for: wannabes hardcore or half pussies

3 3dp on as todays servers for: pussies, carebears, "hello kitty" players/...

To be clear: I will belong either to 2 (depending on the "changes") or 3 - I am not man enough to be hardcore :D

Cheers,

_Anubis_

Well no one likes being called wannabes or pussies... :p to be honest, is option 3 even viable? Do people really just like playing third person for only exploiting the view? I know I don't... Edited August 29, 2013 by I.Ash

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I am lost about the reason why the fighting goes on.... What's wrong in the solution proposed by the mods a few pages above?

 

Here it is again, with a bit of irony:

 

1. 3dp off servers for: hardcore/real men/purists/elitists/talibans/hipsters/...

2. 3dp on with "changes" servers for: wannabes hardcore or half pussies

3  3dp on as todays servers for: pussies, carebears, "hello kitty" players/...

 

To be clear: I will belong either to 2 (depending on the "changes") or 3 - I am not man enough to be hardcore  :D

 

Cheers,

 

_Anubis_

Well for me personally that doesn't actually deal with the issue, it just avoids it.  I'm not being a hipster or a hardcore veteran, I just genuinely think that maybe (only maybe) something could be done that actually improves the gameplay for everyone without acutaully removing anything or forcing a playstyle on anyone.

 

Using your logic (slightly flippantly) we could just say "why not have carebare servers with cool staring loadouts or PVP turned off because then at least we have the choice!  Everyones happy then!".

 

I'd like to think most of us here could see that wouldn't be good for DayZ in the long-run, if something in the game can be improved upon I see no harm in at least looking at the different ways that could be possible.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Fraggle

[Frytek 130]

Im vomiting whenever I see third vs first person discussion, or KoS and "real bandits" on the main page. Everything that was there to say, was said.

Please, save my poor carpet.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Frytek

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

@Fraggle:

 

I have read your long message above. I understand you do not understand (it is NOT a criticism) what is good in 3dp on. Let me try to explain why _I_ (YMMV of course) like 3dp on:

 

I like it for the additional awareness I have and, guess what, I like it because I KNOW every rooftop, window, rock, bush, tree can, exactly as you said, pop-up suddenly a bad guy who starts shooting. I like it because it forces me to move always, to think, never relax  and to keep my head (the real one, I have trackir) rotating endlessly left and right, up and down.

 

While moving I often have the zoom view (narrow) on and while I run in one direction I scan around me, a sector a time, endlessly, like a radar.

 

Call me masochist, but it gives me additional fear the fact I can be spied.

 

_Anubis_

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

@Fraggle:

 

I have read your long message above. I understand you do not understand (it is NOT a criticism) what is good in 3dp on. Let me try to explain why _I_ (YMMV of course) like 3dp on:

 

I like it for the additional awareness I have and, guess what, I like it because I KNOW every rooftop, window, rock, bush, tree can, exactly as you said, pop-up suddenly a bad guy who starts shooting. I like it because it forces me to move always, to think, never relax  and to keep my head (the real one, I have trackir) rotating endlessly left and right, up and down.

 

While moving I often have the zoom view (narrow) on and while I run in one direction I scan around me, a sector a time, endlessly, like a radar.

 

Call me masochist, but it gives me additional fear the fact I can be spied.

 

_Anubis_

You missed my point again :/.  But I think you may be the first person to just admit you like it because you enjoy using it that way so beans for that.  I don't want it removed, I accept that many (most even?) players like using it.  I think removing it would be stupid.

 

However I've still yet to see one good explanation of why magic eyeballs are actually good for the game.

 

Using it as peripheral-vision in open spaces =  :thumbsup: 

 

Using it to look around corners, over walls and over the edge of rooves =  :emptycan: 

Edited August 29, 2013 by Fraggle

[DemonGroover 8836]

Because they make you feel safe and warm and fuzzy inside.

 

3rd person doesn't add to the fear it lessens it significantly. Unless you are fearful of someone using an exploit.

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

Fraggle,

 

if you do not want it removed then the solution above (3dp off/3dp on with "limitations"/ 3dp on as today) is perfect.

 

_Anubis_

 

p.s. being a guy who worked to develop sw for the last ... 25 years approx. and leading today on a VR system project I can tell you that to introduce "limitations" to the 3dp view may end up in something really klunky. I do not question the idea behind that (I also made suggestions about how to do it) but I am not so confident about the result, hence the third option (3dp as today)

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Fraggle,

 

if you do not want it removed then the solution above (3dp off/3dp on with "limitations"/ 3dp on as today) is perfect.

 

_Anubis_

 

p.s. being a guy who worked to develop sw for the last ... 25 years approx. and leading today on a VR system project I can tell you that to introduce "limitations" to the 3dp view may end up in something really klunky. I do not question the idea behind that (I also made suggestions about how to do it) but I am not so confident about the result, hence the third option (3dp as today)

I do accept that there may be no practical solution and if that's the case, I can live with that.  I don't accept that your solution is perfect though, although I guess it's highly unlikely there is a perfect solution.  If there really is no elegant way of doing it then I'd happily settle for the choice between TPV and FPV servers to remain as it is now.

 

Surely the devs at least looking into it is a good thing though?  If they decide it can't be done then that's cool.  Don't forget they have guys on the team that built the RV engine itself, this isn't Dean sitting in a room messing with someone elses code any more.  Nothings been commited yet, they've simply said they want to take a look.

 

I think what baffles/frustrates me is purely the fact that many can't see that it is an actual issue to start with.

 

Wow, we made progress and may even be agreeing on something, it's a beautiful moment.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Fraggle

[DemonGroover 8836]

If the 3rd person view were lowered , a bit closer and free look locked how would this affect things?

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

If the 3rd person view were lowered , a bit closer and free look locked how would this affect things?

Tissue sales would rise exponentially.

[Jamz 253]

I've now given up trying to put forward ideas to improve things re this discussion, constructive posts will just get buried by pages of arguments about 'which view is the best'. I'd love to see servers split into first and third person only in equal numbers but it seems that this isn't viable (I don't understand why though). Fixing the problem in third is the next option as I see it, which seems to be in hand anyway so this thread really serves no purpose now.

 

For the record, one reason I mostly play in third person is because I actually find it more thrilling from a pve perspective. Obviously you will get used to either view so the 'fear' arguement is an empty one when playing a video game (All fear was lost when playing left 4 dead after a few days as I got used to it) familiarity eliminates fear. but having a physical representation of 'me' on screen at all times enhances my vulnerability. FPV can be like looking through a window, or through a visor etc but there is a degree of separation from the game world for me when using it.

 

If I make a judgement error and get swarmed by zombies for instance, I find there is a bit more panic if I can see them surround me and beat on me from third person. As I can't actually feel anything, then seeing and hearing is all the game has to induce atmosphere, with FPV it's just irritating that you can't see the attackers but with third, you can see yourself being killed...

 

From my experience the only problem is the floating cam exploit which mostly affects pvp (in pve I find that quite often zombies see me through walls or from miles away, sometimes they don't see me when I run right past them, so whether I can see them over walls or not is kind of moot. If it is fixed in the SA then I might think differently but personally I'm not sure it even will be). I'd like to see that fixed with minimal impact on my enjoyment of DayZ, after all, thats what everybody wants, right?

[RedNome 443]

If the 3rd person view were lowered , a bit closer and free look locked how would this affect things?

 

Lock the best feature of the Arma engine?

 

No thanks, back to the drawing board, we can do better.

[wild_man 4442]

Lock the best feature of the Arma engine?

 

 

this guy is serious or make joke? :huh:

 

3rd person is best feature??? :lol:

 

better like bullets part of gravity feature?

better like arma 3 stance system for lean and hide behind rock?

better like new realism swim system?

 

 

this guy need to think long what he look for in some game if view of character ass is #1 feature for him :blush:

[DemonGroover 8836]

Lock the best feature of the Arma engine?

 

No thanks, back to the drawing board, we can do better.

Yeah but limit free look to 1st only.

 

Free look is exploited in 3rd by "bending" it over and around obstacles. 

[(TMW) Marion Mic 104]

Yes, only an handful of people prefer 1st over 3dp. Out there there are tons of 3dp on servers with tons of players playing in 3dp and just a few 3dp off servers with so no many people playing. Sorry, where is this "vast majority" of those 1st person players you keep talking about? 

 

The poll idea shows immediately how you confuse the entire dayz player base with the relatively few people posting here: It is the same viewpoint of some moderators by the way: "we" think 3dp is bad, we are "many", hence the "majority" of dayz players think 3dp is bad. b.s. sorry. The reality is different. Go and open dayZ commander if you do not believe me.

 

As I said countless times, I personally play 3dp in explore mode and 1st in combat, so I play on 3DP on servers. I accept people willing to play with 3DP off only, it is their preference, like I accept people doing KoS even if I do not play in that way.

 

We have 3dp on and 3dp off servers for that purpose. Simple as that.

 

_Anubis_

 

 

Sir,

 

No. Just, no.

 

Dslyecxi video has around 30.000 views and 3.000 likes/dislikes. That means every 10 person will approve that or deny "on paper". Since there are 2949 likes and 44 dislikes, that means ~99% of viewers would agree with him and would approve playing in 1st person. Poll: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/146017-first-vs-third-person-poll-post-your-vote-here-after-reading-dslyecxi-video-discussion/ is just another indicator of that and another poll made by SoulHunter I believe: https://docs.google....j2Sil4/viewform that confirms what majority is thinking about that. Looking into DayZ Commander and see there are mostly 3rd person server is wrong since admins and players are just following herd instinct, which went in wrong direction not aware of the issue.

 

I completely understand, that we are looking for alternatives around 3rd person view and how we could improve it. But we are looking forward to SA and fresh start. And here is reexaminations for all of us, and option for not to repeat the "mistake". If someone would like to have 100+ choppers and 900+ vehicles, 3rd person on, there will always be mod to do that.

 

Again, we have opportunity to make hard core survival game which was meant to be from the scratch.

 

Oh god if there would be M4A1 CCO SD in Amnesia, or just one server with that option I would finish the game, but I was to afraid to do that. But it's not. It does not exist and that is what makes game unique. And that should be DayZ.

 

Dean "Rocket" Hall:

 

"I think the best thing that could happen is if DayZ fell off a little," ... "I think if DayZ has a soft launch it's the best thing that can happen to it. Because then a few people will play it and say 'this is cool, I want to play it with my friends.' The best thing that could happen." 

"If most of the community who maybe thought DayZ was cool a year ago and now they think it's lame, I think that's probably good for us. We don't need to sell that many copies to break-even. We want to be a hardcore game and I think if we make a good game people will come back."

 

When you release something, you are not aware of all the exploit that would come. And if you don't fix that, game become lame as it is now. And to make people come back, 1st person is right step in that direction. I've learned, that on this forum you need to go into details of the detiles. Even if people know what you want to say, or you lack of englis knowledge to explain so well, they will still dig in to right there, where you didn't explain enough, even if that was self explaining.

 

TL;DR

 

Hi there 3rdy. Don't read that.

[Ken Bean 174]

Throwing the bullshit flag on the field here, thirdperson gets rid of the unknown, getting rid of fear.

 

If you're going to argue for third person, be consistent, don't say things that don't make sense. If you find it hard to say things that make sense, maybe you need to rethink your position.

And yet you are pointing out that main "issue" or "exploit" for you is that you can't hide behind a wall. Which leads me to the conclusion that because of the 3rd person view there are less saver places.

Also there's a chance that someone is hiding behind a wall you can't see.

And this points lead you to "it feels saver"? How could this be?

There is a bit more danger after all. A kind of danger which already exists: An enemy you can't see. Those can not only be behind walls or on roofs utilizing the 3rd person view. They'd rather could lie everywhere in a bush or a tree.

So you can counter it by moving around, being a hard target.

I for myself came to the conclusion that the reason behind the empty 1st person server is that the 1st person view is fundamentaly flawed. 1st person is in its nature not able to address all the games needs in its complexity.

You keep claiming that 3rd person would be easier and broken or what not. I see the 1st person view way more broken. 3rd person just works dandy.

Now to that what you call an exploit:

I can't really see how you can improve the 3rd person in a way without actually breaking or handicapping it.

Shall we have two broken perspectives?

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ken Bean

[goleastro 22]

Remove 3rd person. 1st only. My input.

Started DayZ on my only local 1st person server a year ago, it got changed to 3rd and I been QQ'ing since then :(

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Wow Ken, another fine example of your repeating the same crap over and over. Why not just address the point he was making about third person removing some of the tension. Or do you disagree that being able to see more around you removes some of the unknown? I'm sure you'll entertain us with another long winded avoiding the issue response.