First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[dgeesio 1034]

I miss the time when there was some actual discussion in this thread.

as i said about 50 pgs ago what has needed to be said has been after that point it becomes just trolls, nonsense, repeating of stuff .

[Ken Bean 175]

Do you think we can make it to page 100? Don't want to call it a day before we reach 3 digits. Where's Ken Bean when we need him?

 

Just lurking from the dark behind with my night vision googles.

**laughes sinister and crouches into the fog to eat some beans**

Edited September 5, 2013 by Ken Bean

[tommes 331]

People play on third person servers, because they freely choose to. 

People abandon first person servers, because they freely choose to.

 

I fear Rocket will have break third person, just like he attempted to remove humanity, before he realize that a feature isn't necessarily broken, just because people redefines it as cheating. The solution has existed in Real Virtuality since 2001, game/difficulty/disable third person view. Why is it first person players get to dictate, how other people run their servers? Your constant polling demonstrates how easily you could fill up all the first person servers you want to, why don't you want to?

 

Dslycsi built a solid community around his difficulty preference, I don't think ShackTac has any problems filling their servers and if I ever joined these servers, I'd naturally accept their server settings. Sure I could question them, but if I'd make a nuisance out of my query, I'd expect I'd get swiftly told to free up the communication's channels or get myself kicked off the server.

 

Seriously you guys need to start joining first person servers, it's not like I join a first person server and complain about it. I just don't play there as much, maybe if you followed my shining example, this moot discussion would stay moot.

 

Moot.

 

I agree with you in the part that it's a shame the community can't fill enough 1st person only servers. But obviously it is not that easy as to say "We gonna save the world" and just do it. Obiously there are not enough players in the same area at the same time who are delibaretly NOT joining 3rd person enabled servers for some reason with a few exceptions. Those exceptions include a fork of DayZ (DayZero), which can be viewed as sort of a built communitiy.

 

Seems like you have to provide the right circumstances for FPV servers to thrive or at least funnel the FPV only fans. That is somewhat sad.

Given the (bad) effects of the exploitability of 3rd person view there seems to be the need to enlighten more players about these and make them want to play more 1st person only.

 

How do you do that when the crowd is like "Fuck you! I wanna play the game like I want!" or "What? There's issues with 3rd person view? Don't see any."?

 

Well, we hope to get through to Rocket and make him like "Fuck you! You're gonna play the game like I want!".

[Jex 1104]

I fear Rocket will have break third person, just like he attempted to remove humanity, before he realize that a feature isn't necessarily broken, just because people redefines it as cheating. The solution has existed in Real Virtuality since 2001, game/difficulty/disable third person view. Why is it first person players get to dictate, how other people run their servers? Your constant polling demonstrates how easily you could fill up all the first person servers you want to, why don't you want to?

 

First person players are not dictating anything - where the fuck did you pull that out of, your arse?

 

BIS are developing a game - that game will run whatever way they want it too. Saying you can't dictate how people run their servers on a game that hasn't even been made yet (and there's no obligation for them to add in 3rd person view btw in a brand new game). Should I start a thread about adding in Jet packs and laser guns and then call everyone "hardcore" because they don't want that in it and then scream "I want jet packs and laser guns, don't tell me how to run MY server"

 

Let's get one thing striaght here - BIS are under no obligation to server owners. If they want to operate a server that's up to them to do it but they get no special case just because they run a server - whoopee fucking doo they shell out $50 a month or less. Big deal.

[Zombie Jesus 723]

The exploits of TPV probably can't be fixed without making it undesireably even for enthusiasts.

 

Losing in the market share means not much choice left for us.

 

If you'd really get the arguments against TPV you should at least feel ashamed every time you use the Enter key.

Lol ashamed every time I use the enter key. I guess I am the one fanning the flames of rage.

I do get the argument, but you missed the key point I could care less about the argument. It is a game and when 3rd person is enabled it is enabled for everyone. I am aware that even in those circumstances there are instances when you can get an advantage (say I am in a hallway and you are 3rd person peeking around a corner, even though we both have 3rd person you can see me while I can not see you), but I know that going in and could still care less.

At least you admit that your perspective has lost so terribly that your only resort is to ban the other option so everyone can play your way, it makes you a sore loser but at least you have the stones to admit that. I will concede that you are more "hardcore" or play a harder game than myself if you can concede that you are being a baby.

I have to enjoy the "Rocket said" aspect of this thread, Rocket says plenty of things I will wait for a hard statement or the actual release to worry about what "Rocket said" in passing during an interview.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Zombie Jesus

[tommes 331]

I don't have that much emotions involved as you might think. The ones really losing are the people playing a game mickey mouse style.

You don't care? Well, I wouldn't miss playing with your kind anyway. But for now I have a wall to put tapestry on. 1st person only! Like the cool guys do it.

[Zombie Jesus 723]

Tommes

You do not care yet you put so much emotional language into your posts. I have been playing this game for over a year at this point and the forum people while often nice tend to take things a tad too seriously. I have put in plenty of time into first person servers, I just prefer third person enabled servers (like 90% of the player base, this forum can run 100 flawed polls on the issue but the server stats do not lie).

"I wouldn't miss playing with your kind anyway"

That statement alone is just a giant indicator that you are in fact that guy, the guy who takes a mother effing game so seriously that he thinks he is superior. You take pretension to a whole new level, you are the DayZ hipster who thinks everyone who does not agree is some moronic noob incapable of seeing your shining logic.

Notice how I have never criticized your preference for first person, it is because I am not a self involved child who thinks my preference should automatically be every players preference.

Edit: I know I am being jerk but do not take that to mean I feel this way about all people who prefer first person playstyle, just those who take this specific attitude about their preference. I honestly wish that there was a bigger community for you guys to be a part of and hope that the standalone makes these types of server choices easier and more popular.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Zombie Jesus

[nuggit 246]

Another first time poster, long time stalker  :ph34r:

 

Sorry was trying to keep it short, didn't work.

 

I play fpv only, and could argue about the flaws of 3pv all day all night all year all life. I strongly believe it does not belong in a unique stand-alone game that DayZ is shaping up to be. The mod is a different story completely, it is just that a mod. No matter what I think or say, I do believe Mr Rocket wants to keep 3pv in his game and change the way it works. As much as I hate to say it, this whole debate shouldn't even exist the answer is a no brainer considering what needs to be done to make this fair. I will suck it up as I said it's his game and am here for the ride. I will still play it the way I do when it's released. Heck I just built my first gaming pc just for this game  :blush:

 

I tried out 3pv recently to see how it played out... might help add something to this discussion, may as well considering the damn 3rd viewpoint is staying. Sigh, I could ramble on what so many people have tried to fight for, ahhhh better not ... Thought I would be constructive considering it's my first post ...  :D

 

There has been a lot of suggestion on restricting the camera to 1pv whilst prone, tightening the view point to the shoulder and some other likes. I still am unsure if Rocket and team will ever get this to work without damaging some aspect  of fairness of game play between the two styles, magnitude of feelings one experiences within this game, breath taking immersion, enjoy-ability and keeping to what DayZ is really all about. 

 

Just a thought that might help in achieving this after my quick stint? 

 

If you opt in for the uh... "more situational awareness" approach No switching into first person at all strictly, helps with breaking the immersion (whats left of it)! Would be weird to play in 1pv and zoom out to 3vp during combat. Minimize the Field Of View severely to zoom in the camera to left or right of avatar waist/shoulder. Help with fairness. Disable Zoom and Free Look you should not be able to see behind you, too many advantages in combat/buildings whilst in 3pv against 1pv. 

 

I know it might come across as nerfing too much but if you sit back and think about it, it makes more sense as a compromise between enjoy-ability while maintaining the immersion.  You can still still see your pretty avatar running around while retaining what DayZ is without actual compromise of unfair play. I can't see any issues programming side, It should be easier then modding the crap trying to do all sorts of crazy things with the camera! After playing Last Of Us, I would have walked away feeling disconnected  from Joel and Ellie if I had been zooming into first person every time I shot or bricked a zombie. 

 

I truly hope that Rocket takes this matter seriously. It once was a social experiment when it was a mod in a limited engine for this design.  It is no longer a mod, decisions need to be made.

 

Just my opinion from down under  :D 

 

Nuggit

Edited September 5, 2013 by Nuggit

[aeinola 25]

I would say don't try to fix 3rd person view, its impossible. Focus on fixing 1st person view so more people could enjoy it. I would also separate 1st person only hive so no one can exploit server hopping (gear up in 3rd person view). Whit this kind of approach there would not be a problem since you can choose to play 1st person only servers/hive. 3rd person view works fine the way it is, sure you can exploit it unrealistic way, so what? The 1st person only should be fixed to be more enjoyable and promote it aggressively so it would get its own player base.

[dallas 5195]

I would say don't try to fix 3rd person view, its impossible. Focus on fixing 1st person view so more people could enjoy it. I would also separate 1st person only hive so no one can exploit server hopping (gear up in 3rd person view). Whit this kind of approach there would not be a problem since you can choose to play 1st person only servers/hive. 3rd person view works fine the way it is, sure you can exploit it unrealistic way, so what? The 1st person only should be fixed to be more enjoyable and promote it aggressively so it would get its own player base.

 

I partly agree.

 

I think it would be wise to use some of the attention all these threads and polls generate to discuss, what's so wrong with first person view and why it's impossible to fill up servers or not worth running such servers, instead of attempting to portray third person at an exploit, cheat, n00b or mickey mouse playstyle.

 

I don't think it's realistic to run two hives, just like I don't believe people decided to spend all the time on 3rd person servers, just to switch to 1st person servers. It's not easier to farm gear on a 3rd person server, what makes it easy is how populated the server is.

 

You're missing one important point though.

 

Arma is a game based around sub-communities (ShackTac for example).  That is Arma's strength.  A small community can set up the game how they like to play and off they go.

 

DayZ's strength will lie in the fact that it is a global community, all playing in the same world, all able to trade, meet and so on across multiple servers, countries and time-zones.  As soon as you start to split that community up you weaken it and the premise of the game as we've seen with the private hives over the last year.

 

Comparing the 2 games is pointless, they're just too different.

 

That's why I'd like to see the devs basically dictate one standardised experience.  Even if it means I have to compromise what I'd ideally like to see, which I already have.  It's for the better of the game in the long-run.

 

I disagree, then again I always stuck with a single server, when I played DayZ. I found a populated server, with the settings I liked and stuck with it. I didn't switch to a US server, when it became dark and I didn't server hop at high value loot spawns.

 

I wouldn't mind some kind of true line of sight solution, where units aren't rendered in the landscape, unless there's a visible line between the units, but I don't like the idea of some kind of variable, that constantly throws you in and out of third person.

 

My main argument is still that it's the first person players, who abandon their own ideals and instead of helping populate first person servers, they complain about the settings of the third person servers they occupy. There'd be no problem, if all the people preferring first person and according to Dslyecxi's video, it's three thousands, who agree with him, would fill up US, EU and AU servers.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Dallas

[Jamz 253]

First person players are not dictating anything - where the fuck did you pull that out of, your arse?

 

 

Well they are trying to, all the advocates for the outright removal of TPV so far seem to be 'I only want to play in FPV' players. They want to dictate that those who use or prefer TPV play always only in FPV. That, I think, is the crux of the argument raging around the original discussion, which has died again now. I wait for it to reappear.

[[email protected] 524]

You could say the same about any other aspect of the game though. "Vanilla fans dictating how others play their game". At the end of the day, it's Rocket and crew who will dictate how we play the game. They are obviously aiming for a more focused, standardized experience. Leaving eveything optional is the worst thing they could possibly do in that case.

[aeinola 25]

You could say the same about any other aspect of the game though. "Vanilla fans dictating how others play their game". At the end of the day, it's Rocket and crew who will dictate how we play the game. They are obviously aiming for a more focused, standardized experience. Leaving eveything optional is the worst thing they could possibly do in that case.

Options for servers is a good idea. Options for players is not.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

My main argument is still that it's the first person players, who abandon their own ideals and instead of helping populate first person servers, they complain about the settings of the third person servers they occupy. There'd be no problem, if all the people preferring first person and according to Dslyecxi's video, it's three thousands, who agree with him, would fill up US, EU and AU servers.

Or just fix the glaring issues with third person view then we can all play together and enjoy the same game. =)

 

(btw, not one person has yet explained why the issues I raised with the third person cam earlier in the thread are acceptable or in anyway good for the game.)

 

I accepted a long time ago that 3rd person cam is here to stay and haven't once said my preferred way of playing is superior to anybody elses.  I have highlighted an issue though (an issue that the devs accept needs addressing) and haven't read one satisfactory reply as to why it shouldn't at least be looked at.

 

I haven't bothered posting on this thread for a while because it's just descended into  "YOU SUCK!".   -    "NO YOU SUCK!"  which isn't very exciting.

 

Some people have said "but it'll break the game QQ".  Well in that case it won't have worked and we can carry on as we have it now.  Being scared that it won't work is not a valid excuse for not at least letting them try.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Fraggle

[Zombie Jesus 723]

You could say the same about any other aspect of the game though. "Vanilla fans dictating how others play their game". At the end of the day, it's Rocket and crew who will dictate how we play the game. They are obviously aiming for a more focused, standardized experience. Leaving eveything optional is the worst thing they could possibly do in that case.

Not all options are created equal though. Allowing for the variety of the mod is not the experience Rocket wants for the standalone and under great duress I do agree with that concept. Initially it will be nice to see a standardized product, but subtle options for players is not that big of a deal. Things like crosshairs, third person, and nameplates (if those are even included, not a fan myself) are not game breaking for most players. For those that view them as game breaking their should be servers with these options disabled and I hope those communities thrive. I look forward to returning to a game that has consistency even though I will admit I really enjoy the variety the mods of the mod have offered.

Most of us can agree that the current DayZ atmosphere has become saturated with heavy PvP servers with starting loot and most of us can agree that is not the direction the standalone wants to take. I find it comical that I am championing 3rd person when I usually avoid third person shooters. I actually avoided buying Arma 2 for some time due most videos showing third person combat, but for some reason I just think it fits in this large open world experience.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Crosshairs, nameplates, mapmarkers... the list goes on.

 

None of these things were design decisions added to improve DayZ.  They are all literally a result of it being a mod of Arma.

 

Now they're making the game how they want so things like a flawed 3rd person cam should also be looked at.  It'd be silly not to.

 

Just to repeat:  I want the 3rd person cam to stay, I also want it to be fixed.  As I said earlier in the thread, it may not be possible but not even looking at it would be stupid.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Fraggle

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

.

 

Some people have said "but it'll break the game QQ".  Well in that case it won't have worked and we can carry on as we have it now.  Being scared that it won't work is not a valid excuse for not at least letting them try.

but there is a world of difference between looking at changes to FPV/TPV, and "remove TPV entirely"..

 

surely that u can agree on..

 

personaly im pretty sure Rocket wont remove TPV, after all EVERY single video of him actualy playing hes using it.. obviously he prefers it himself.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Siberian

[mercules 1290]

I think it would be wise to use some of the attention all these threads and polls generate to discuss, what's so wrong with first person view and why it's impossible to fill up servers or not worth running such servers, instead of attempting to portray third person at an exploit, cheat, n00b or mickey mouse playstyle.

 

Here is what is wrong with FPV... it doesn't allow people to see around corners or over walls. It doesn't allow players to see zombies before they could agro or to scan a building for loot without exposing themselves to danger. That is the main reason FPV isn't used. 

Yeah, I am one of those, "FPV advocates that plays on TPV servers." As I stated I have friends and when given an easier route they will often go down it because they are human. Well, who am I to dictate how my friends and other people play? Well, I know my friends. If I ask them most would be okay with FPV but we have 1 that would just stop playing. So he is actually dictating my play style and unfortunately I want to play with people and since "people" insist on TPV then I end up having to got to TPV servers to play with them. I can tolerate 3rd person although I prefer 1st. He can't tolerate 1st.

[Zombie Jesus 723]

Fraggle,

Of course it should be looked at and when possible adjusted to avoid the issues most of us are well aware exist in third person perspective. I have never seen a third person game where these "exploits" are not available though so I am not super confident they will ever be adequately addressed for those who dislike third person, that is why there should be some server choice allowed if third person is carried over to the standalone. One of the reasons I normally avoid third person shooters is due to these very issues, but DayZ is not a pure shooter and the majority of your time is spent running around an environment fighting zombies and not other players.

I am not the type to throw a fit over minor changes and would not even rage if TPV was removed from the standalone. In that case I would state my preference for its inclusion, but it would not "break" the game it would just be slightly less visually appealing and after a short adjustment I probably would not even mind. I would even encourage the developers to continue testing fixes to TPV during the development process, but hopefully not at the expense of a release date (I am incredibly selfish there). I showed some rage toward a specific attitude that is more prevalent with the FPV proponents but not exclusive, besides that I am always open for changes and discussions.

[[email protected] 2416]

personaly im pretty sure Rocket wont remove TPV, after all EVERY single video of him actualy playing hes using it.. obviously he prefers it himself.

Hold up.

Have to stop you there. :P

 

You have to realise that in those demo videos, he's showing off features.

That doesn't mean anything in terms of his overall preference.

Not saying that your conclusion's either right or wrong specifically, just that that the way you reached it isn't founded in reality.

I'm not sure if youre serious or not, but best snub this before it snowballs into RAGE-MODE.

 

Demonstrating animation, clothing and player-models is easier in 3dp.

 

To extend your logic assumes Rocket plays on crosshair-enabled, "spawn with weapons and lootz" servers.

 

OK. Carry on.

Edited September 5, 2013 by Chabowski

[mercules 1290]

... but DayZ is not a pure shooter and the majority of your time is spent running around an environment fighting zombies and not other players.

 

Just to point this out again. You realize Zombies are stuck using FPV, so to speak. They can't agro without direct LoS to you or hearing you and even when hearing you they agro to an area and then search to get LoS on you. So while you can see them they can't see you, which you stated was part of the majority of the game. Basically TPV gives you an advantage over the "antagonist" of the game, the Zeds.

[[email protected] 2416]

What I'd like to know is, when we get the different builds (regular update and "stable"), how viable are the "fog of war" and "line of sight" fixes that used to be the in-thing?

It was a regular mention in the suggestions thread. I'd like to see if it works at all like its theory.

[big_t 66]

 

 

personaly im pretty sure Rocket wont remove TPV, after all EVERY single video of him actualy playing hes using it.. obviously he prefers it himself.

 

 

actually I'm 85 percent sure on one of his more recent videos (at one of the conferences) he was playing a bit in 1rst person.    Even so when he is playing in 3rd as someone stated it is mainly for demo purposes.

[Heiduk 265]

Why not just a camp fire [to enable a 3rd person rest state]?  Because not all of us play on 24/7 daylight servers.  Perhaps you forgot there was a dawn, dusk, and dark of night?

I'm not sure why night is an argument against linking a rest state to distance from an active campfire. The idea is to only enable third person when the player feels safe. It is entirely up to them where that threshold lies. Sure fires are more visible at night, as they should be. Now instead of trying to hide the smoke you need to hide the direct illumination, meaning you need to build your fire in a different place than you would during the day. Interesting choices that add to the complexity of the game.

 

Allowing for the variety of the mod is not the experience Rocket wants for the standalone and under great duress I do agree with that concept. Initially it will be nice to see a standardized product, but subtle options for players is not that big of a deal. Things like crosshairs, third person, and nameplates (if those are even included, not a fan myself) are not game breaking for most players.

The only problem with this line of reasoning is that there are a million lines in the sand for what is viewed as game breaking. Just consider Dslyeci and ShackTac, they consider 1st person to be game breaking, but use (modified) crosshairs, and very often coop player markers, and radar that shows were the other members of your fire team are.

Fraggle is exactly right, ARMA has thrived by allowing 100s of niche communities to develop around their individual definitions of how the game should be played. I don't think that model works for DayZ. Choice is good, but design is better.

 

You have to realise that in those demo videos, [rocket]'s showing off features.

That doesn't mean anything in terms of his overall preference.

In one of his interviews didn't he say something to the effect that he mostly played the mod in 1st person but has been spending more time in 3rd since working on the standalone? When first reading that I remember wondering, given the state of the standalone, how much actual playing is going on, compared to simply running around testing features/bugs. I think it's pretty hard to divine his personal opinion at this point.

[Zombie Jesus 723]

Just to point this out again. You realize Zombies are stuck using FPV, so to speak. They can't agro without direct LoS to you or hearing you and even when hearing you they agro to an area and then search to get LoS on you. So while you can see them they can't see you, which you stated was part of the majority of the game. Basically TPV gives you an advantage over the "antagonist" of the game, the Zeds.

Lol, if you want a discussion about zombie difficulty I am fine with that. It really has very little to do with FPV and TPV though no matter how hard you try to tie it to that discussion. Yes zombies are slightly easier to avoid in third person, if you are an experienced player zombies are easy regardless of the view you use.

I am trying not to be mean with this next statement but your reason for wanting only FPV is one of the most flawed posts I have seen on this thread. It boils down to the fact that your friends do not like it so you are forced to play TPV servers, that is not a valid argument.

The only problem with this line of reasoning is that there are a million lines in the sand for what is viewed as game breaking. Just consider Dslyeci and ShackTac, they consider 1st person to be game breaking, but use (modified) crosshairs, and very often coop player markers, and radar that shows were the other members of your fire team are.

Fraggle is exactly right, ARMA has thrived by allowing 100s of niche communities to develop around their individual definitions of how the game should be played. I don't think that model works for DayZ. Choice is good, but design is better.

Some people will undoubtedly be upset with the direction of the standalone, I will not be among that group regardless of how TPV pans out. I suspect it will stay and as a compromise to those who really feel it is gamebreaking I hope their is some server side options that cater to this group. The developers have the final say on that matter though, besides offering some feedback we are currently at their mercy in regards to these issues.

DayZ is different from Arma and while I love the modding community that BIS supports in terrific fashion I understand the standalone will take a different path from the Arma series. I am fine with that, but some variety is fine in the standalone especially in regards to certain features. If it pans out differently I will not whine, hopefully the FPV proponents can take the same approach.