First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[mercules 1290]

 

 

Q: Third person can still be used to look behind corners and over walls while standing..

 I'm comfortable that enough rational has been established for the absolute and complete removal of third person from the standalone. I also believe that third person allowed servers, by virtue of demand, are more popular in the mod than first person ones. I think that it has been demonstrated that there is a "problem" with the allowance of third person, and the proposed solution is the best I can come up with. It's not perfect, but if we just allow servers to turn it on/off then I think demand will dictate that people gravitate to 'third person allowed" servers - despite them acknowledging the exploits.

This is a long winded way of saying, so what do you suggest given the evidence at hand? [source]

 

Can we get over the, "TPV is not an exploit". When the dev tells you it is used as an exploit in their game you know it is being used to do things they didn't intend, aka, an exploit. 

 

 

I think some of the approaches they are taking might take the worst of the issues that 3rd presents while allowing those who refuse to accept 1st person as viable to have their comfort zone. I still think it will make avoiding zombies to easy which detracts from the game play, but not as easy as it was which is good. 

Look, if we ignore the whole "You just want to turn DayZ into CoD." which believe me I do not, I just personally think that the intensity of the PVE would be increased by playing in FPV. I know that is case for myself and I have enjoyed DayZ much more while playing in 1st person. I just want to bring that experience and intensity to others who I think are cheating themselves of it. I also enjoy it more but am FORCED to play 3rd by server populations. Yes I have my own server and I would set it to 1st person only in a heartbeat if I didn't have to consider the fact that 2 out of the 4 people I want to play with are so used to TPV that they don't like to play in 1st anymore, that and every OTHER server we end up going to is 3rd so why not learn the exploits so we can use them too?

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

Can we get over the, "TPV is not an exploit". When the dev tells you it is used as an exploit in their game you know it is being used to do things they didn't intend, aka, an exploit. 

 

 

I think some of the approaches they are taking might take the worst of the issues that 3rd presents while allowing those who refuse to accept 1st person as viable to have their comfort zone. I still think it will make avoiding zombies to easy which detracts from the game play, but not as easy as it was which is good. 

Look, if we ignore the whole "You just want to turn DayZ into CoD." which believe me I do not, I just personally think that the intensity of the PVE would be increased by playing in FPV. I know that is case for myself and I have enjoyed DayZ much more while playing in 1st person. I just want to bring that experience and intensity to others who I think are cheating themselves of it. I also enjoy it more but am FORCED to play 3rd by server populations. Yes I have my own server and I would set it to 1st person only in a heartbeat if I didn't have to consider the fact that 2 out of the 4 people I want to play with are so used to TPV that they don't like to play in 1st anymore, that and every OTHER server we end up going to is 3rd so why not learn the exploits so we can use them too?

could not agree more. a minority group of the minority says that it is insulting to be called "cheating" when it is literally what it is, yet those people do nothing but insult "properly" (which is being a hypocrite). Getting called "cheating" is an insult nowadays ? Oh dear..

 

Such ignorance radical people will never understand this fact..

[St. Jimmy 1631]

So lets nail it:

You 1st person only guys actually never switch to third person?

 

You always run around in super immersive 1st person mode even through the most boring landscape ever in default plains?

You earned a hero or bandit skin and never switched to third person to see how it looks like?

You guys never switched to third person after you found a ghillie to see what effect it has?

You are completely uninterested how a backpack looks on your char?

You found an NVG and never felt the desire to see how that thing looks like as you wear it?

You never went prone into a bush and took a look if you are covered?

You never drove a car and took a peek how cool you guys are looking?

... never made a fire and switched to 3rd person to see what your char actually is doing?

... never raised your hands to surrender and wanted to know what your char is doing?

... never run around with flares or chemlights in 3rd person?

 

I don't think so.

We have the gear menu in the Standalone where you can see the character... Pretty much I don't even get what's your point.

If there's 3rd person option OF COURSE people will check how things look. But if there's somehow one wo/man who hasn't done those then s/he has seen how things look when s/he has watched other people in FPV. All of those things can be asked from a friend how things look if it's really needed so there's no need for 3rd person for those things.

Edited August 28, 2013 by St. Jimmy

[Jamz 253]

A lot of talking still, but nothing being said. Prove you lot have imagination and come up with a solution to this 'exploit' rather than simply removing it. That after all, would be the 'final solution', right?

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Well I'd lock the height of the cam at eye-level (roughly, maybe allow 10-20 degrees of vertical movement) and restrict the horizontal movement of it to a 45 degree arc behind the player.

 

When the player kneels the cam tightens up a bit, when he goes prone it tightens up a bit more.

 

Sorted.  Or not.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Fraggle

[Deathwind (DayZ) 28]

I prefer using 3rd person when traveling. Its more entertaining. Don't really like the first person view and movement but in combat instinct is first-person.

[Deathwind (DayZ) 28]

That's just my method of gameplay. Also use 3rd for helicopter ALWAYS.

[mercules 1290]

A lot of talking still, but nothing being said. Prove you lot have imagination and come up with a solution to this 'exploit' rather than simply removing it. That after all, would be the 'final solution', right?

 

I've had my own unique suggestion already. Put the point of view directly behind the person's head in line with their eyes about 20cm back and make them translucent.  Now you can see your body and use it as a reference if that is why you prefer 3rd person but you can't really look around corners or over walls with it. 

[Jamz 253]

Well I'd lock the height of the cam at eye-level (roughly) and restrict the horizontal movement of it to a 45 degree arc behind the player.  Sorted.  Or not.

 

 

Kind of like this?

 

http://ccs.infospace.com/ClickHandler.ashx?du=http%3a%2f%2fimg2.generation-nt.com%2fred-faction-armageddon-4_09050002D000901861.jpg&ru=http%3a%2f%2fimg2.generation-nt.com%2fred-faction-armageddon-4_09050002D000901861.jpg&ld=20130828&ap=5&app=1&c=facemoodsv4.1002&s=facemoodsv4&coi=772&cop=main-title&euip=2.125.3.221&npp=5&p=0&pp=0&pvaid=8f4098dc910743a8a9ee6d343f9f896f&ep=5&mid=9&en=pJl5jd2FjawFzO2%2f4rLC47cC1JpYx%2fA3sVRowBlo7jnYuCj0TVbjUw%3d%3d&hash=5D5D4212C1C0B18CCEEA4265EA935437

Edited August 28, 2013 by Jamz

[Jamz 253]

I've had my own unique suggestion already. Put the point of view directly behind the person's head in line with their eyes about 20cm back and make them translucent.  Now you can see your body and use it as a reference if that is why you prefer 3rd person but you can't really look around corners or over walls with it. 

 

Thats not bad, maybe with a slider to roll in and out of FPV? I wonder if it might look a little confusing in Third though if the cam is directly behind, we don't want to obscure anything or make it too difficult to see slight distant movement etc. looking over walls and around corners is probably the biggest issue with TPV at the moment, which this would address. Can we address these issues with an offset cam?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Jamz

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Out of all the proposed changes to third person view, my own suggestion(making zombies/players invisible until you see them in first person) is the only one I would consider acceptable, but I still don't think it's a good idea due to visual immersion breaking.

 

Pulling the camera in close- It seems rather pointless to even have third person view if your screen is mostly blocked by your character model. This can be seen in other games. I think if people actually tried this change, they wouldn't like it. But who knows.

 

Forcing first when prone- What if I want to go prone in the bushes and check to see if my feet are sticking out? What if my legs are broken? I'm forced to use first person for that 2km crawl to the hospital? What's the logic in that enforcement? There's just too many circumstances where unfair/unenjoyable/unauthentic restrictions will happen.

 

Weapon on back means third enabled- This one is slightly better, but it's still wide open to exploitation. If an unarmed scout can still exploit the view, nothing has been fixed. Or you could just lay on a rooftop and shoulder your weapon until you see a target.

 

Did I miss any?

[Wayze 549]

Well I'd lock the height of the cam at eye-level (roughly, maybe allow 10-20 degrees of vertical movement) and restrict the horizontal movement of it to a 45 degree arc behind the player.

 

When the player kneels the cam tightens up a bit, when he goes prone it tightens up a bit more.

 

Sorted.  Or not.

As you are not able to see above your character, you will not see what is infront of him. I think many people won't like this.

[Ken Bean 175]

Someone mentioned there would be no 1st person server in europe, there's a nice one.

DE 128

IP 80.242.152.220:2322

Played today 10 minutes alone untill two guys jouned the server. I'd suggest if you want to play 1st person, go there, play a bit, wait, be patience. People will join as it is not entirely empty and if you stay there, more people will follow.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Kind of like this?

 

http://ccs.infospace.com/ClickHandler.ashx?du=http%3a%2f%2fimg2.generation-nt.com%2fred-faction-armageddon-4_09050002D000901861.jpg&ru=http%3a%2f%2fimg2.generation-nt.com%2fred-faction-armageddon-4_09050002D000901861.jpg&ld=20130828&ap=5&app=1&c=facemoodsv4.1002&s=facemoodsv4&coi=772&cop=main-title&euip=2.125.3.221&npp=5&p=0&pp=0&pvaid=8f4098dc910743a8a9ee6d343f9f896f&ep=5&mid=9&en=pJl5jd2FjawFzO2%2f4rLC47cC1JpYx%2fA3sVRowBlo7jnYuCj0TVbjUw%3d%3d&hash=5D5D4212C1C0B18CCEEA4265EA935437

 

Well kind of I guess but really it wouldn't have to look too different to how it does now.  It's just the movement I'd limit because for me that's where the problems lie.  

 

Imagine the cam as it is now in game when it's at your rear looking forward.  The only differences would be that the up/down movement would be severely restricted to help stop the invisible rooftop camping situation and the horizontal movement from that position would be roughly 20 degrees or so each way.

 

That doesn't rule out the fact that it could be used to look around corners (it would be a bit trickier) but it would pretty much rule out rooftop camping and looking over walls.  Technically it's also very simple (well I think so anyway).

 

I'll have a bit more of a think about it :/

 

Edit - Wayze is right so maybe offset the cam and tighten it up a bit so it's more akin to an over the shoulder cam but further back but then keep the movement restrictions.

Edited August 28, 2013 by Fraggle

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Someone mentioned there would be no 1st person server in europe, there's a nice one.

DE 128

IP 80.242.152.220:2322

Played today 10 minutes alone untill two guys jouned the server. I'd suggest if you want to play 1st person, go there, play a bit, wait, be patience. People will join as it is not entirely empty and if you stay there, more people will follow.

 

This thread isn't a discussion about populated first person servers. Those of us in the first person corner know all too well the state of the first person servers in the mod. Their lack of population has no bearing on this discussion. This thread is about third person view being exploitable and what should be done about it.

 

SO FUCK OFF WITH YOUR AVOIDING THE ISSUE!

Edited August 28, 2013 by bad_mojo

[Ken Bean 175]

This thread isn't a discussion about populated first person servers. Those of us in the first person corner know all too well the state of the first person servers in the mod. Their lack of population has no bearing on this discussion. This thread is about third person view being exploitable and what should be done about it.

 

SO FUCK OFF WITH YOUR AVOIDING THE ISSUE!

So you are not able to populate a server? I tell you what. The 3rd person view is not broken and I have no issues with. But if I were the guy, who set up the server, and if I'd read this thread here, I would feel pranked.

So why can't you let me my freedom?

How about you fucking off? Seriously dude. As long as you can't populate a server you kind of proof that

1) third person is awesome

2) noone cares 1st person only server

3) this whole discussion with all the insults of folks which likes third person just is a vendetta or sth

Edited August 28, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Heiduk 265]

Did I miss any?

 

You missed the best one (credit to Terrorviktor): Give zombies 3rd person view.

 

I'm actually semi-serious about this. Amidst all the discussion of unfair camping, etc. etc. people tend to forget how detrimental 3rd person is to the PVE game. Zombies are stupid sods and need all the help they can get, assuming they don't exist solely to be annoying bullet sponges.

 

I thought another decent suggestion was to put a visible player marker at the same position as the camera. Whether or not that marker should be able to take damage on behalf of the player is perhaps another question.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

So you are not able to populate a server? I tell you what. The 3rd person view is not broken and I have no issues with. But if I were the guy, who set up the server, and if I'd read this thread here, I would fell pranked.

So why can't you let me my freedom?

How about you fucking off?

 

No, because I'm attempting to discuss the topic at hand. Not just avoiding the issues I don't like.

 

Your last comments show exactly how unconstructive your comments have been throughout this whole thread. You flat our refuse to accept something is an exploit even when the developer himself says it is. You constantly fall back on that unacceptance as some kind of reason for you being right.

 

You chose to throw underpopulated servers in our faces constantly as some kind of crucial piece of information, at the same time ignoring any discussion about WHY they're under populated, which the developer himself made mention of.

 

Basically, you and SMLE have made some comments that you know will get a reaction, ignore the replies, then a page or two later, you pipe up with the same bullshit again. Either fucking address the replies or shut the fuck up about it. These circular arguments are doing nothing except ensuring that none of our words will be read by anyone at the top. I can hardly stand to keep reading, and I've read it all.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

You missed the best one (credit to Terrorviktor): Give zombies 3rd person view.

 

I'm actually semi-serious about this. Amidst all the discussion of unfair camping, etc. etc. people tend to forget how detrimental 3rd person is to the PVE game. Zombies are stupid sods and need all the help they can get, assuming they don't exist solely to be annoying bullet sponges.

 

I thought another decent suggestion was to put a visible player marker at the same position as the camera. Whether or not that marker should be able to take damage on behalf of the player is perhaps another question.

 

Doesn't seem right to me unless you take the players current view into account. If I'm walking around in first person view for some reason, zombies seeing me over the walls seems counter-intuitive. But, I agree, it's one of the more plausible ideas out there.

 

Just no to the markers over the head, I want less HUD, not more.

[terrvik 2409]

Doesn't seem right to me unless you take the players current view into account. If I'm walking around in first person view for some reason, zombies seeing me over the walls seems counter-intuitive. But, I agree, it's one of the more plausible ideas out there.

 

Just no to the markers over the head, I want less HUD, not more.

 

It was a joke suggestion to point out how flawed TPV is. If it is so fair when everyone's using it then the infected should be able to use it as well. Problem is that there would be lots and lots of (delicious) tears since they (the infected) would be able to see you over walls and around corners and therefor be extremely hard (in the unfair kind of way) to hide from. But then again so can you, so it's fair. Or is it?

 

 

That's just my method of gameplay. Also use 3rd for helicopter ALWAYS.

 

Well THAT'S just cheating. :) Not knowing or knowing where every part of a huge vehicle is part of the skill of driving one!

 

EDIT: By the way, it's interesting to see how many videos labeled "Tried a first person server for the first time, it's awesome!" or somesuch has cropped up over att reddit since Dys... dsly... dlsex... the guy posted the original video. :) At least a few more people has seen the light (from a first person perspective none the less!)!

Edited August 28, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

If we could refrain from telling each other to fuck off that'd be awesome, cheers.

[Jamz 253]

I'd ideally like to be switching between first and third person views depending on the situation I think. A lot of the suggestions seem to be aiming towards tying the two together a bit, I wonder if that could be made fluent so it doesn't break immersion or gameplay... At the same time we don't really want the view going in and out like a yo yo.

 

I wouldn't think too much could be done to alter the viewpoint in the mod but it would be great if the SA had a FPV that you could slide out to a position over the right or left shoulder (players choice) up to maybe 15" back. Camera height would be locked at head height but you could see your guys head move if you look up or down. Just roll the mouse roller back into first when needed, so moving in and out FPV to TPV becomes natural. Of course, this would mean not using the mouse roller for menu's unless moused over loot/door/ladder etc, when the menu activates instead of the cam zoom. Hope you guys get what I mean. What do you think?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Jamz

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

Well, there's some stuff we won't have to agree upon because they're more or less fact:

- Only the 3rd person fans are happy right now.

- The most simple solution would be to just shut off 3rd person view. -

 

did you even read what u wrote before submiting ??

 

step back and ask yourself if ANY game dev. would read that and agree its the best thing to do..

 

hahaha

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

Well all I can say is thank god this isn't a game designed by commitee.  When you try to please everyone you fail.

 

I'd rather see them release a game that 400,000 people play and say is the best game they've ever played than a game that 2,000,000 play that they forget about after a few weeks.

 

All we can do is hope that Dean feels the same.

yes cuz nothing says success then a game built for 6 people that costs millions to produce..

 

make no mistake SA is expected to sell huge, this isnt the mod were talking about anymore, that was free.

[tommes 331]

did you even read what u wrote before submiting ??

 

step back and ask yourself if ANY game dev. would read that and agree its the best thing to do..

 

hahaha

Reading and understanding are obviously two very different things.

I wrote:

- presently only the TPV fans are happy

- easiest solution is to turn off TPV

Which one isn't true? Why would I need a game dev to agree to something that's already fact?