First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Heiduk 265]

Yawn for yourself, I find this discussion very interrsting. :)

 

Agreed, you just need to ignore the trolls on both sides of the issue.

[terrvik 2409]

what a joke noone agrees with me lets make a new thread to start the thread circular arguement again hahaahaha

what a joke.

more people play in third person ! 1st person is minority overall.

Que?

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

what a joke noone agrees with me lets make a new thread to start the thread circular arguement again hahaahaha

 

what a joke.

 

more people play in third person ! 1st person is minority overall.

Wut new thread? :/

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

what a joke noone agrees with me lets make a new thread to start the thread circular arguement again hahaahaha

 

what a joke.

 

more people play in third person ! 1st person is minority overall.

Not to disappoint you mate, but the thread that got closed was regarding a poll on the case, which shows that the majority seeks FPV over TPV. In overall, the thread had more FPV supportive posts than TPV. It is not like a rate of 70%-30% would be so much changed in another thread.

 

Deal with it. Far more people seek FPV experience regarding the ones that want TPV. Out of 400 people only 15 people voted for TPV. Just saying..

[mercules 1290]

what a joke noone agrees with me lets make a new thread to start the thread circular arguement again hahaahaha

 

what a joke.

 

more people play in third person ! 1st person is minority overall.

 

The joke is watching you bring up an argument that has been discredited. ;) I play in 3rd because the populated servers my friends want to play on has 3rd person turned on. That doesn't mean it is actually a good idea. Honey Boo Boo was a very popular show, that doesn't mean it was good or I would have let my kids watch or I would watch it myself. 

So then we go into "Well you can chose not to watch Honey Boo Boo." and I do, but that means shows like Firefly which was a niche show when it was aired are NOT being produced but more episodes of Honey Boo Boo or similar crap. That means FPV servers are not being created. Have you seen the, "What happened to vanilla?" a lot of players have chosen to not play on difficult servers but instead where they have paid for loadouts or get to start with a pistol, and such. This is their choice but the choice to take the easy route and quickly become bored because that version of the game is too easy but then not wanting to go back to the harder vanilla and so just moving on is what is happening. That means fewer players around, which means more empty servers. 

People need to understand that what is good for the game isn't always what is good for them. They can try and flip it around and say TPV is "good for the game" but popular and good are not always the same thing and people need to stop thinking they are. Candy Crush is REALLY popular, but that doesn't mean the things that make that game popular lend themselves well to a Zombie Survivor Simulation. 

 

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I think RedNome made a good point,  we've been going around in circles for ages now and it's pretty clear who thinks what and that their views are unlikely to change in the near future.

 

The facts are this:  The devs do feel that there is currently an issue with the way the 3rd person cam works but they (Dean specifically) likes playing using the 3rd person cam a lot.  This isn't a new issue btw it's been discussed for years over on the BIS forums but it's more relevant to us right now because it may actually now be addressed during the SA development.

 

They will be looking at ways to refine/adjust the way the third person cam currently works.  At this point it's kind of irrelevant now if we're happy about that or not because that's the course of action they've already decided on.

 

So with that in mind it would be more constructive for us to offer ways they could go about it.

 

Dean's unlikely to read through 40 pages of circular arguments but if we can form a decent list of suggestions and discuss the pro's and cons then I'm happy to compile that into something a bit more digestible than this thread and make sure he get's to read it.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Fraggle

[mercules 1290]

Fraggle,

 

 

The issue is that countless developers have spent years trying to figure out a good way to have TPV without the "issues" it brings. Many good ideas have been presented but they all add coding, work, and server overhead. Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best, aka, No TPV. Just solved ALL issues with TPV. Now lets focus on fixing the issues some people have with FPV which are apparently fixable since some of the people who have issues with ARMA II/DayZ FPV play other FPV games without issue. 

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Fraggle,

 

 

The issue is that countless developers have spent years trying to figure out a good way to have TPV without the "issues" it brings. Many good ideas have been presented but they all add coding, work, and server overhead. Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best, aka, No TPV. Just solved ALL issues with TPV. Now lets focus on fixing the issues some people have with FPV which are apparently fixable since some of the people who have issues with ARMA II/DayZ FPV play other FPV games without issue. 

Yeh agreed, I don't have any answers :/

 

Just trying to steer the thread in a more constructive direction.  It's not my thread though so I've done what I can =)

 

I will make list though and post it up later/tomorrow of ways I think they could go about it...

 

Carry on. 

Edited August 27, 2013 by Fraggle

[Jamz 253]

Yeh agreed, I don't have any answers :/

 

Just trying to steer the thread in a more constructive direction.  It's not my thread though so I've done what I can =)

 

I will make list though and post it up later/tomorrow of ways I think they could go about it...

 

Carry on. 

 

How about maybe trying to get Rockets reasons why he prefers 3rd person as well, I'm hoping he reads this thread and chips in if he has time. At the end of the day there is no right or wrong answer to this particular problem as ultimately it will depend on peoples preferences as to which aspect they go for, regardless of pros and cons.

 

I think the main thing so far to take away from this discussion is that third person at the moment is exploitable and needs to be addressed, almost everyone agrees, so a list of options is a start at least.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Jamz

[droznig 20]

It makes sense that rocket would prefer third person because it means he can see the animations and art work that he or his team has worked on, things that we would be able to see in other players but I personally have no need of seeing myself do. Even the CoD new game has third person in the trailers to promote the new animations or w/e.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

How about maybe trying to get Rockets reasons why he prefers 3rd person as well, I'm hoping he reads this thread and chips in if he has time. At the end of the day there is no right or wrong answer to this particular problem as ultimately it will depend on peoples preferences as to which aspect they go for, regardless of pros and cons.

 

I think the main thing so far to take away from this discussion is that third person at the moment is exploitable and needs to be addressed, almost everyone agrees, so a list of options is a start at least.

Well he has talked about it a bit in the past and he likes it for the same reasons as many others do as far as I can tell.  He likes the added awareness of your surroundings (peripheral vision) it offers and that is the reason it was added to Arma all of those years ago, I remember watching some Arma2 dev videos about it when it was being developed, even back then it was a hot topic.

 

Like many people he just feels more comfortable using it.  But importantly he has recognised there are issue with it that effect gameplay.

 

I posted some of his recent thoughts in this thread: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/145895-first-vs-third-person-discussion-dslyecxi-video/page-35 

Edited August 27, 2013 by Fraggle

[Ken Bean 175]

Nope.

 

If somebody's in a building using 3rd person cam to scope out a street I have no way of knowing.  There is literally nothing I can do, I just have to accept that behind every window in the game and on every roof there could be an invisible sniper because the gameplay mechanic is broken.  

 

Sure next time around I could be that guy but you're blind if you can't see how that's detrimental to gameplay.  Just admit you like having magical eyes because it makes you feel safe  :thumbsup:

 

Despite it being that broken some don't even want to see it fixed :/

 

Crazy.

Couldn't it rather be that the 'magical eye' makes you feel more unsave? In most situations you can use it too, e.g. you could have a peek into the house. I always thought that the 'hidden danger' is a major part of the game. Besides of that there are not many roofs to get to. In real life you would use a mirror or sth like this to have a look around a corner.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Heiduk 265]

Many good ideas have been presented but they all add coding, work, and server overhead.

 

People seem to forget this part of the equation, hence my last suggestion: Launch with 1st person only, get that right, then if necessary spend developer cycles on fixing 3rd person before adding it back in. What I'm afraid we are heading towards right now is the same old ARMA story of mediocre 3rd person built on top of mediocre 1st person. It may not ruin the game but lack of focus will definitely make it less than it could be.

 

Arguably multiplayer ARMA has been most successful within the private milsim communities such as Shacktac. I think that is for two reasons. It gave them the flexibility necessary to build the games they wanted to play. However, just as importantly, because they were closed communities they were able to set and enforce rules that they determined constituted fairplay, e.g. no 3rd person in the case of Shacktac. When you take away the ability to enforce rules you end up with the chaos that is ARMA Domination, Wasteland, and DayZ on public servers. Airdropping cows and god mode may be fun for awhile but they don't make for a game with much staying power. Like it or not, by deciding to build a MMO Rocket and Bohemia have taken on the responsibility for setting and enforcing rules. They can't rely on public opinion to make those decisions for them if they hope to make a compelling game.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Couldn't it rather be that the magical eye makes you feel more unsave?

No, it put's me in a position where tactically any roof, window and wall could have an invisible sniper watching me meaning that however aware I am of my surroundings the game mechanic is broken and my only logical choice for survival is to avoid any of those things which is silly because if that mechanic didn't exist I could apply good tactics to increase my chances.

 

That would be more fun than putting my safety in the lap of the gods.  The SA will have many more vantage points in towns and cities, if there's the potential to have invisible players watching me from any of those points then I have to consider that detrimental to gameplay.

 

(I'm trying RedNome I promise :/)

Edited August 27, 2013 by Fraggle

[RedNome 443]

No, it put's me in a position where tactically any roof, window and wall could have an invisible sniper watching me meaning that however aware I am of my surroundings the game mechanic is broken and my only logical choice for survival is to avoid any of those things which is silly because if that mechanic didn't exist I could apply good tactics to increase my chances.

 

That would be more fun than putting my safety in the lap of the gods.  The SA will have many more vantage points in towns and cities, if there's the potential to have invisible players watching me from any of those points then I have to consider that detrimental to gameplay.

 

(I'm trying RedNome I promise :/)

 

;)

 

I think another thing that maybe could be done (no idea of logistics of coding/performance issues) would be to disable 3rd person as soon as you enter a building, therefore ridding you of your paranoid urban phobias to a degree, obviously we still have the wall issues, but it could be another step in the right direction with what Dean has already proposed.

Edited August 27, 2013 by RedNome

[Ken Bean 175]

No, it put's me in a position where tactically any roof, window and wall could have an invisible sniper watching me meaning that however aware I am of my surroundings the game mechanic is broken and my only logical choice for survival is to avoid any of those things which is silly because if that mechanic didn't exist I could apply good tactics to increase my chances.

 

That would be more fun than putting my safety in the lap of the gods.  The SA will have many more vantage points in towns and cities, if there's the potential to have invisible players watching me from any of those points then I have to consider that detrimental to gameplay.

 

(I'm trying RedNome I promise :/)

In real life having a sniper somewhere is nothing which would be easy to spot. If he is somewhere in the bushes, you wont see anything. If hes in a house he could watch you through a window without you could notice him because e.g. of reflections in the window, because it is dark inside or because of a courtain. If he's on a roof, you have a better chance spotting him, if you get into a higher position. If he's just in the middle of the roof using only his ears if someone tries to sneak through the town, making noises sooner or later, you wont see him from the ground level anyway.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ken Bean

[wild_man 4442]

In real life having a sniper somewhere is nothing which would be easy to spot. If he is somewhere in the bushes, you wont see anything. If hes in a house he could watch you through a window without you could notice him because e.g. of reflections in the window, because it is dark inside or because of a courtain. If he's on a roof, you have a better chance spotting him, if you get into a higher position. If he's just in the middle of the roof using only his ears if someone tries to sneak through the town, making noises sooner or later, you wont see him from the ground level anyway.

is not true, is surprise how much is possible for player to see

 

is double for movement, if one guy show head on roof top is possible see him no problem from far away ;)

 

is true some place is good for hide, and is normal if guy find good spot is too much difficult for seeing him.

 

difficult - not impossible :P

 

with 3rd person is impossible :|

Edited August 27, 2013 by KoS

[Ken Bean 175]

is not true, is surprise how much is possible for player to see

 

is double for movement, if one guy show head on roof top is possible see him no problem from far away ;)

 

is true some place is good for hide, and is normal if guy find good spot is too much difficult for seeing him.

 

difficult - not impossible :P

 

with 3rd person is impossible :|

Yeah, but I mean compared to real life. In rl you have way better chances to hide. You have not similar buildings everywhere with exact same shapes. A sniper could tarn his head easily like a smokestak or sth. You couldnt tell the difference until you are very close or until he moves. Or he just would snipe from the window of the floor under the roof out of the dark. Sometimes I have the feeling that folks forget how many possibilities there are in rl. In DayZ all buildings are kind of empty, all types look the same, many shapes are repeating.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ken Bean

[wild_man 4442]

Yeah, but I mean compared to real life. In rl you have way better chances to hide. You have not similar buildings everywhere with exact same shapes. A sniper could tarn his had easily as like smokestak or sth. Or he just would snipe from the window of the floor under the roof. Sometimes I have the feeling that folks forget how many possibilities there are in rl.

is limit of game, this don't have nothing to do with 3rd person view

 

3rd person don't simulate nothing from real life :huh:

[Jamz 253]

;)

 

I think another thing that maybe could be done (no idea of logistics of coding/performance issues) would be to disable 3rd person as soon as you enter a building, therefore ridding you of your paranoid urban phobias to a degree, obviously we still have the wall issues, but it could be another step in the right direction with what Dean has already proposed.

 

I like this idea a lot. You could expand it and have the game pull you into first person when you enter combat also, perhaps.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Jamz

[Ken Bean 175]

is limit of game, this don't have nothing to do with 3rd person view

 

3rd person don't simulate nothing from real life :huh:

Not really, but it gives a bit back of your rl awareness. And of cause there are devices in real life which even go far beyond the fird person view. Drones, cams, optical devices, ... even satellites.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ken Bean

[wild_man 4442]

Not really, but it gives a bit back of your rl awareness. And of cause there are devices in real life which even go far beyond the fird person view. Drones, cams, optical devices ...

I play 100% first person and I have full aware feel ;)

 

this argue don't make sense, 3rd person is make you more aware than real life, is going too much far :o

 

I say this before, is some guy make idea for this. Make 3rd person stay, exact like now but all player is invisible to you when use 3rd person, this way you get super psychic aware feel even for shit behind wall and buildings but no advantage spot of player for exploit. :thumbsup:

[Ken Bean 175]

I play 100% first person and I have full aware feel ;)

 

this argue don't make sense, 3rd person is make you more aware than real life, is going too much far :o

 

I say this before, is some guy make idea for this. Make 3rd person stay, exact like now but all player is invisible to you when use 3rd person, this way you get super psychic aware feel even for shit behind wall and buildings but no advantage spot of player for exploit. :thumbsup:

As said, I for myself don't use it as exploit. I just want to know whats going on with my virtual body. It gives me some kind of self awareness of the avatar in the world. In real life I'm still sitting in front of my computer. ;-)

If you dont get what I mean, go play Gothic 2 or 3 and eenjoy all the things your avatar in game can do. And you can watch him doing lots of stuff. They make the games more immersive and believable, providing more details and depth to the world.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ken Bean

[terrvik 2409]

As said, I for myself don't use it as exploit. I just want to know whats going on with my virtual body. It gives me some kind of self awareness of the avatar in the world. In real life I'm still sitting in front of my computer. ;-)

 

I think I would much more prefer a stance indicator (like in Arma3) that shows where you are feeling pain as well as how your body is positioned. Like a red dot on your leg if you get shot there. I can't see my back very well in real life so I wouldn't know if there are a big ol' pool of blood staining the back of my shirt until I find a mirror (something I really hope is added, both on vehicles and in general...) or someone tells me. :)

 

Third person in single player games is a different matter entirely since you need to see all those pretty animations. In a multiplayer game they are meant for others to see.

 

Of course FPV must be improved. People feeling sick due to low FOV or low FPS isn't acceptable, but as I understand this is being worked on.

[Ken Bean 175]

I think I would much more prefer a stance indicator (like in Arma3) that shows where you are feeling pain as well as how your body is positioned. Like a red dot on your leg if you get shot there. I can't see my back very well in real life so I wouldn't know if there are a big ol' pool of blood staining the back of my shirt until I find a mirror (something I really hope is added, both on vehicles and in general...) or someone tells me. :)

 

Third person in single player games is a different matter entirely since you need to see all those pretty animations. In a multiplayer game they are meant for others to see.

 

Of course FPV must be improved. People feeling sick due to low FOV or low FPS isn't acceptable, but as I understand this is being worked on.

How often you fell from a roof in real life because you accidentally prone a bit too far in first person mode?

Hanging in the air only having a bit of the legs on the roof happens to the best of us. :D

Edited August 27, 2013 by Ken Bean