First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[wild_man 4442]

CLICK! CLICK! :o

 

BLAM!!! :PH34R:

*HIDES BODY*

Edited August 27, 2013 by KoS

[amradude 289]

Genuine question: all you guys feeling sick in FPV; is this a problem specific to Arma/DayZ or every FPS out there?

 

 

I've never felt sick in FPV in Day-Z actually but i guess that's because i don't stay in it all the time. Other FPS games i do sometimes get sick if i play long hours.

[wild_man 4442]

I've never felt sick in FPV in Day-Z actually but i guess that's because i don't stay in it all the time. Other FPS games i do sometimes get sick if i play long hours.

nice, you respawn, or maybe is better for say resurrect ;)

 

is true some guys find problem play some FPS :thumbsup:

but rocket say they make improve for this and is true Arma 3 is too much better for first person

[hoik 415]

Rather than trying to fix the problems with third person view, how about some ideas about how to improve first person view? I like first person view already, so I can't understand the issues people have with it, or how they could be fixed/improved.

 

Like I said in my earlier post, if we're going to keep the option, BOTH views must play the same. It should be preference, not strategy which view you choose. Which isn't the case currently.

Agree.

 

Well, this has been an interesting thread. I've concluded that choosing between FPV and TPV is not just about a preferred perspective, or even the tactical 'exploits' that TPV potentially offers, rather it is about what should be the fundamental experience of Day Z- so I can understand why people get worked up about it.

 

IMO FPV offers a lot of subtly and tension that is lost is TPV - for me Day Z is a survival horror game first (PvP falls in this category too) and a first (third :P ) person shooter second - this means that any 'feature' that makes Day Z a better survival/ horror experience will win over other equally valid features, which don't bring as much to the table. That is, if it had to be one or the other and not both.

 

Unfortunately, for this issue, I think it does come down to making a clear cut decision on one or the other. Making this decision is IMO equal to deciding on what the core experience you want to give your players - it is not a light decision, and I think that Dean realizes this.

 

I admire Dean for trying to compromise, but I feel the same as Mojo, the time spent trying to 'fix' third person can just as easily be spent making FPV more engaging and visceral experience.

[wild_man 4442]

 

..... the time spent trying to 'fix' third person can just as easily be spent making FPV more engaging and visceral experience.

exact what I think :beans:

 

add more stance feature for prone, look over wall etc, make so 1st person feel like for real you are inside this character :thumbsup:

 

this way is like you in this map, not some puppet control from outside, is better for experience 100%

Edited August 27, 2013 by KoS

[tommes 331]

I know for a fact that many people simply cannot play DayZ in 1st person, something to do with the head bob, FPS and the monitor hz. I suffer from this and can only enjoy this game in 3rd person.

Turn off head bob and post processing!

Can you play other FPS games?

 

This topic has gained massive interested and shows Rocket that there is no clear winner for either mode ergo both should remain.

There's no winner so 3rd person view should stay...so 3rd person view is the winner?

The solution is:

Fix 1st person (more FPS, better controls)(should happen anyway)

Fix 3rd person so exploiting is impossible or too hard.

If the latter is not possible, 3rd person view has to go.

[tommes 331]

3rd person view is the most popular because in my opinion Dayz has attracted mainstream MMO players unlike other first person shooters and they are used to 3rd person view its how they play .

That's what's the reason for this whole whining...uhm...discussion about KoS mentality and PvP vs PvE'n'stuff. True FPS gamers would never start such a thing.

[tommes 331]

oh he seen me over a wall ! so ! you can see him just the same ! :lol: you got killed becuase you didnt notice him not cause of 3rd person. if youd of been paying attention for eg you would of probably seen him.

You can't see him. The guy is right behind a wall and you might be 100 meters away. He can watch you safely behind cover with exactly zero exposure to himself. That's neither fair, realistic nor plausible. Not even in the zombie apokalypse.

[mercules 1290]

I know for a fact that many people simply cannot play DayZ in 1st person, something to do with the head bob, FPS and the monitor hz.

I suffer from this and can only enjoy this game in 3rd person.

 

But, that is not a FPV issue, that is a Motion Blur and Head Bob issue both of which can be turned off. We can ignore, "I can't because these secondary things that have nothing to do with what we are talking about cause me to not." issues. Yes, FPV has those on by default and TPV does not by default, so turn them off.  :rolleyes: 

 

Okay, lets try and break this down.

- I can't play FPV because it makes me ill. 

It isn't the FPV it is the other things that are enabled in FPV. If those are removed then FPV is just like TPV without being able to peek over and around things. FOV is the same between BOTH in DayZ. 

- I don't like FPV because I can't tell where I am, I get stuck in doorways. 

This is true and is a big issue... at first. If you play ANY game in FPV you eventually learn where your avatar is in relationship to your view and it becomes second nature. As I stated many threads back, the issue is people pop into TPV, can see their shoulders, and bypass doorways that way, but it really doesn't take long to do it in FPV. You will get your spatial awareness ~IF~ you use it. It doesn't come overnight but it does come. 

- I prefer TPV.

As I stated, this isn't a reason, this is a conclusion. There are reasons you prefer it so state those so we can actually discuss the issue. If you don't like Lime Jello that doesn't mean you just don't like it. It might mean you don't like Jello at all because of the texture, you don't prefer the lime flavor, or even you have an issue with bright green food. The point is it is really hard to decide what could convince you that FPV isn't a bad thing if you can't express what you don't like about it or like about TPV. "I just do." is a 3 year old answer not an adult answer.

- TPV might give me an advantage in some situations but you can do the same thing so it is fair.

 

This is one of those really hard discussions. Some people see nothing wrong with "Gaming a System" which is to say they don't mind using a bad mechanic to do things they reasonably shouldn't do with it. They don't understand why there should be a limitation on it. 

This is really an odd position because they don't get game theory or at least the design of games. The restrictions exist to make the game fun. While it might be fun, from time to time, to have a game where you can just "blow some stuff up!" from time to time. Those games get old and boring for most people very quickly. At the same time if the game is too hard or too restrictive it becomes boring. Where that line is drawn in a sandbox game is really difficult but typically you want to start harder and then ease up? Why? because once people get a crutch they are loathe to let it go. Like Zombies not running in buildings. Notice there is already a thread up about what are we supposed to do in SA if you can't shake agro that way.  ;) 

TPV makes the game easier. End of story. It does.

 

It makes the PVP aspect easier in that any camper gets a HUGE advantage over people moving around. This means geared up people who already have an advantage over ungeared have even more of an advantage because an ungeared person HAS to move around and has to go to those areas where the ambusher can happily be waiting with his 4 cans of beans, 4 sodas, military grade weapon, and lots of ammo. 

It makes the PVE easier because you can quickly determine where zombies are in a building, around a corner, over a fence, without exposing yourself to their agro. 

When the game becomes that easy most people will lose interest, however at the same time most people will look for the easy way to do things. So you have a weird loop of people going to play on the TPV servers and then saying the game is boring because it is too easy. There really are times when you have to save people from their own selves. This is a huge problem in the gaming industry. Make the game easy so people will get on, play, and enjoy it and then it is too easy and they grow bored and leave because they have accomplished everything they wanted to accomplish. Make the game easy and people whine and don't want to learn how to play. 

[wild_man 4442]

for me case for No 3rd person is win B)

 

before I watch survive gamez and see this video of dslyecxi I was 100% 3rd person guy :huh:

 

i say 100% honest true thing

 

i use 3rd person for exploit, only this one :blush:

 

now i am convince this feature ruin too much important things like pvp and realism :thumbsup:  :)

 

guys who don't make realize is like those japan soldier who hide in jungle for 30 year after war is finish and say 'god save emporer' before kamikaze attack :huh:

Edited August 27, 2013 by KoS

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

Genuine question: all you guys feeling sick in FPV; is this a problem specific to Arma/DayZ or every FPS out there?

If it is just Arma this needs to be fixed either way. I know I myself can feel ill on low framerates, so I understand this can be a problem. Especially on framelocked console games, like TLOU which made me dizzy a few times.

i think it may be something of just the viewpoint..

 

oddly i can play FPS games just fine.

 

but in arma, FPV makes me feel odd, and for sure trying to watch a utub/twitch feed in 1st person gives me a right away sickly feeling, i think it has to do with the not being in control.

 

like for example i cant read a book or watch a movie in a traveling vehicle, ill get neasues (sp?) right away as soon as i take my eyes off the road/direction of travel.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

That's what's the reason for this whole whining...uhm...discussion about KoS mentality and PvP vs PvE'n'stuff. True FPS gamers would never start such a thing.

so anyone who isnt interesting in just playing CoD style should GTFO ?

 

dayz mod or SA, isnt a FPS game, its WAYYYY more then that.

 

thats the VERY core issue here.

 

FPS gamers who just wanna shoot everything they see looking for the mystical hi-score.

[Heiduk 265]

Personally I disagree with rocket's logic for keeping 3rd person, however, based on his recent comments (see Fraggle's quotes) it seems pretty clear that it will continue to be part of the game. Rocket does indicate he wants to make changes to 3rd person so that it's abuses will be less egregious. Finding a 3rd person compromise that fixes the biggest issues in a way players find natural and acceptable will likely take a fair amount of balancing and tweaking. Therefore I wonder how it would work if the initial release of DayZ was first person only with the promise that 3rd person servers would be added after a few months of reworking, much like vehicles were removed until they could be done properly. I can see several advantages to doing this sort of staged release:

• Initial developer time required is almost 0.
• Assures that all mechanics work well in 1st person.
• Supports soft-launch (presumably some 3rd person players won't want to play 1st person only).
• Provides time to design a good 3rd person system, rather than just slapping together changes that are easy to code.
• Delays 3rd person design decisions until more game components are in place, reducing potential rework.
• Delays player rage about 3rd person changes until they can be seen in the context of a more complete game.
• Instrumented servers provide baseline data on how players interact in 1st person and how their styles change after 3rd person is made available.
• Gives players who might otherwise go straight to 3rd person a chance to see what 1st person is all about.

[mercules 1290]

so anyone who isnt interesting in just playing CoD style should GTFO ?

 

dayz mod or SA, isnt a FPS game, its WAYYYY more then that.

 

thats the VERY core issue here.

 

FPS gamers who just wanna shoot everything they see looking for the mystical hi-score.

 

Don't go there. I've never played CoD and I hate run and gun games like it. Battlefield 3 is about as close as I get.

I love the survival aspect of DayZ and I strongly believe the FPV and lack of supernatural senses that you have in TPV make DayZ much more interesting from a survival standpoint. Zombies become more of a threat, other players become less of a threat. TPV turns DayZ from a Zombie survival game into a broken PVP game very quickly.

 

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

As soon as someone can explain to me why being able to bend their vision around corners, over walls and through windows is a good thing for gameplay then I'll be able to take them seriously.

 

Nobody has done that yet.  Just saying "it's ok cus everyone can do it" is not a good reason and doesn't explain why they think it's a good thing in terms of gameplay or adds to the game in any way.

 

Choice:  It's what makes fat kids fatter.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Fraggle

[Shadow Man 142]

Wow....ok

 

 

You are saying Rocket is wrong giving players the choice to be a bandit or a hero ?

 

You are saying Rocket is wrong when he gives players the choice to Kos ?

 

You are saying Rocket is dead wrong for letting players choose how they want to play in Day-Z ?

 

We aren't talking about the mod now, we are talking about Day-Z SA, Rocket wants to give players choices of how they play Day-Z.I don't think you will like Day-Z SA as it's really all about the choices you make in the game, and you hate choice with a passion.

 

That is the lamest argument ever.

 

So are you going to complain when you don't have the choice to use an invisibility cloak? Or when you cant choose to teleport around the map?

[droznig 20]

But, that is not a FPV issue, that is a Motion Blur and Head Bob issue both of which can be turned off. We can ignore, "I can't because these secondary things that have nothing to do with what we are talking about cause me to not." issues. Yes, FPV has those on by default and TPV does not by default, so turn them off.  :rolleyes:

 

Okay, lets try and break this down.

- I can't play FPV because it makes me ill. 

It isn't the FPV it is the other things that are enabled in FPV. If those are removed then FPV is just like TPV without being able to peek over and around things. FOV is the same between BOTH in DayZ. 

- I don't like FPV because I can't tell where I am, I get stuck in doorways. 

This is true and is a big issue... at first. If you play ANY game in FPV you eventually learn where your avatar is in relationship to your view and it becomes second nature. As I stated many threads back, the issue is people pop into TPV, can see their shoulders, and bypass doorways that way, but it really doesn't take long to do it in FPV. You will get your spatial awareness ~IF~ you use it. It doesn't come overnight but it does come. 

- I prefer TPV.

As I stated, this isn't a reason, this is a conclusion. There are reasons you prefer it so state those so we can actually discuss the issue. If you don't like Lime Jello that doesn't mean you just don't like it. It might mean you don't like Jello at all because of the texture, you don't prefer the lime flavor, or even you have an issue with bright green food. The point is it is really hard to decide what could convince you that FPV isn't a bad thing if you can't express what you don't like about it or like about TPV. "I just do." is a 3 year old answer not an adult answer.

- TPV might give me an advantage in some situations but you can do the same thing so it is fair.

 

This is one of those really hard discussions. Some people see nothing wrong with "Gaming a System" which is to say they don't mind using a bad mechanic to do things they reasonably shouldn't do with it. They don't understand why there should be a limitation on it. 

This is really an odd position because they don't get game theory or at least the design of games. The restrictions exist to make the game fun. While it might be fun, from time to time, to have a game where you can just "blow some stuff up!" from time to time. Those games get old and boring for most people very quickly. At the same time if the game is too hard or too restrictive it becomes boring. Where that line is drawn in a sandbox game is really difficult but typically you want to start harder and then ease up? Why? because once people get a crutch they are loathe to let it go. Like Zombies not running in buildings. Notice there is already a thread up about what are we supposed to do in SA if you can't shake agro that way.  ;) 

TPV makes the game easier. End of story. It does.

 

It makes the PVP aspect easier in that any camper gets a HUGE advantage over people moving around. This means geared up people who already have an advantage over ungeared have even more of an advantage because an ungeared person HAS to move around and has to go to those areas where the ambusher can happily be waiting with his 4 cans of beans, 4 sodas, military grade weapon, and lots of ammo. 

It makes the PVE easier because you can quickly determine where zombies are in a building, around a corner, over a fence, without exposing yourself to their agro. 

When the game becomes that easy most people will lose interest, however at the same time most people will look for the easy way to do things. So you have a weird loop of people going to play on the TPV servers and then saying the game is boring because it is too easy. There really are times when you have to save people from their own selves. This is a huge problem in the gaming industry. Make the game easy so people will get on, play, and enjoy it and then it is too easy and they grow bored and leave because they have accomplished everything they wanted to accomplish. Make the game easy and people whine and don't want to learn how to play. 

I second all of the above, well put and a good starting point for any one joining in on the discussion late.

[RedNome 443]

Most. tedious. thread. ever.

 

Do carry on.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Most. tedious. thread. ever.

 

Do carry on.

Well you gotta admit it's slightly less tedious than the KOS debate?  I don't even bother with those any more.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Fraggle

[RedNome 443]

Well you gotta admit it's slightly less tedious than the KOS debate?  I don't even bother with those any more.

 

They both make me question my life when I catch myself reading them.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

They both make me question my life when I catch myself reading them.

Haha, but this is nearly 40 pages of circular gold!

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

[RedNome 443]

Haha, but this is nearly 40 pages of circular gold!

 

And half those posts have come after Rocket has already stated that he is going to address the issue as best he can.

 

A thread where people suggest ways to fix 3rd would be valid, if people can stick to doing that, this thread is pointless as it stands, just an endless back and forth between the two factions all in a roundabout way calling each other cnuts.

 

Yawn.

Edited August 27, 2013 by RedNome

[terrvik 2409]

Yawn for yourself, I find this discussion very interesting! :)

Edited August 27, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[dgeesio 1034]

what a joke noone agrees with me lets make a new thread to start the thread circular arguement again hahaahaha

 

what a joke.

 

more people play in third person ! 1st person is minority overall.