First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Ken Bean 175]

Btw, disabling TPV is not like outlawing obesity. It is much more like making it impossible to get obese.

That's scientifically questionable if we presume that most obese specimens don't even have a third person mode.

(In rl for most people the 3rd person view already is disabled by default.)

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ken Bean

[calle 100]

Now, I haven't read every single post on every single page in this thread.

I myself consider myself a legit 3'rd person user, as Rocket stated.
What i use 3'rd for is for all the common things like travel, looting, exploring and just being able to see what my character looks like.
Being able to see what my character looks like makes me value it more. Especially with all the new cothing and animations this is even more true.

I guess the reason 3'rd has become so widely used is probably because of the clunky movements and weird FOV in Arma 2. There's no weight to the animations and objects which makes first person feel uncomfortable and un-natural.

A possible but not perfect solution is to keep the 3'rd person perspective and make it as Rocket stated; related to stance.
But also make it not possible to fire your gun (forced lowered gun) while in 3'rd perspective view.
This makes those exploiters HAVE to turn the corner with first person view active if they're going to shoot you.

Sure it's not perfect at all, but it creates another problem for the exploiters.
It also makes the whole interaction with other players a bit more nice to look at (3'rd person view).

[tommes 331]

I want to illustrate my point of forcing players to the supposedly right behaviour. I don't mean it a draconian punishment way but in a teaching the kids the right way to do things way. Playing any multi player game needs some form of codex, rules and decent behaviour which usually have to be enforced or people would use unfairness to gain an advantage. It's much like CoD Modern Warfare Multiplayer with all those stupid perks. Players would use any of the perks of shame like martyr, last stand or the noob tube unless they learned that those were lame. They learned that usually through other players sort of forcing them to not use those...or not. Many didn't and now we have the hated "CoD kiddies" with no idea what it means to play in a decent manner. The devs didn't do shit about that and now CoD MP is a piece of shit I wouldn't want to touch with a long stick.

As a parent you have to teach your kids the right way. To do that you set boundaries. As tight as necessary. That's not totaliaran. It's being a responsible parent.

[tommes 331]

I guess the reason 3'rd has become so widely used is probably because of the clunky movements and weird FOV in Arma 2. There's no weight to the animations and objects which makes first person feel uncomfortable and un-natural.

True. Arma 2 movement is widely known to be clunky. Smoothing that out and improving engine performance (more fps) will take away a lot of that hopefully. Just check out DayZero!

[tommes 331]

Nope, I go to a less populated with 3rd person view and without the nameplates being shown.

I do this because I don't like server which doesn't let me switch the person and because nameplates feel a bit like a cheat. (I know that folks just always turns the mousewheel, which makes it impossible to hide things.)

 

So here you are wrong, player don't always go to the full servers where the heat is pvp whise. Some of them, like me, love to play on almost empty servers at night with loads of flares and stuff. You just can't do that on full servers without frequently being killed.

 

 

Edit

So I think people may like those servers which offer the 3rd person view better. If it would be a disadvantage, they'd go back to 1st-p-only.

Playing on almost no pop server for me is somewhat like masturbating. Can be nice but it's far away from the real thing.

[spinager 152]

Hmmm, if their engine allows them to not render what the eyes cant see, then they can keep 3rd person the way it is. Similar to World Of Tanks. If a team mate/you does not have line of sight to an enemy tank. Then they will not be rendered to you. 

 

If they can implement that for both zombies and players then that would be pretty cool. 

 

I like playing in first, but 3rd imo takes some stress off of my eyes at times. But I usually play 1st only. 

[mercules 1290]

Well about an hours play in to first person only server Zombies.NU - SE2.

 

I'm not too fond of the view at the moment, I find stairs and tight corridors irritating, losing any perspective on my characters footing and actually physical presence in the world (I suspect time adjusts this), the graphics look worse being up close to some slightly dodgy textures. Sneaking around wherever I started was fun enough; no really different to third person though (I'm probably not the most careful player though..); I certainly didn't find the experience in anyway more immersive but that is probably quite situational; I've had no fire fights yet.

 

I have found I get a lot more tearing along with the camera feeling a little seasick inducing, mayhaps I'll get use to that and I suppose I could force vertical sync for the tearing. Head bob plus low blood visibility is very disturbing :P . Though I think climbing a ladder was overall the most odd experience so far.

 

Someone earlier asked why the same size of either this forums poll or the reddit poll wouldn't be indicative of the actual distribution of player preferences, assuming the what 1.8mil uniques your going to need what? 2300 responses to hit a 95% confidence level? That's also ignoring any other factors that drive players to reddit or these forums; there's a reason 'we' are more invested then most. 

 

I have to give you props and credit for being willing to try the 1st person servers. 

When I first started playing DayZ I stuck to 1st person. Why? Not because I didn't know where the 3rd person key was or was on 1st person only servers, but because the very first videos for DayZ, the ones that really pulled me in, were all 1st person. I spent that first month jumping when zombies walked around a corner into my face or jumping when one came up behind me. It was an awesome experience.

 

However, my friends gravitated towards 3rd person servers because 3rd person is actually much easier. I am not talking about PVP either. On those servers you could quickly and easily scan for zombies all around you without loosing tactical knowledge. You could see a zombie on the other side of a tree and lay down and move left or right to keep it from seeing you, the whole time observing it so you could wait for it to wander away and then move past it. You could "peek" around corners without agroing anything, or over fences, and all that. It made you feel very secure and aware. It made me feel very comfortable. 

I hadn't found any vehicles that were drivable or repaired any during my early days of 1st person so it was a shock going back to 1st person and trying to drive and fly. It is ~hard~ but it adds a bunch of tension to it. When I can tell I have enough clearance to fit that car through the gap because I am looking from right behind it and can easily see it, trying to slip through a narrow gap has no tension. When I have to judge it while looking out the windshield, that is a very different experience and a few times I've judged wrong and lost a vehicle, usually at the worst possible moment. 

I love my one friend, but he is an "easy button" "loot whore" at heart. He will take on the toughest content on Insane difficult, but he will still find the easiest way to complete that "challenge" like glitching the NPC or using a loophole in the game to get past it. "Okay, so here is how we do this part for those that haven't completed part 1 of this quest series. You all die, then we carry your stones to the other side, then we Resurrect you. That way we can skip all of part 1." <-- actual solution for a game we played. He doesn't want me to move the server to 1st person. Why not? "Too hard." That was it, he was honest about his preference, 1st person was too hard and he didn't see a reason to make things harder. 

I play DayZ because it can be hard. Vanilla was a bit too hard for a little bit there and so I tried some other mods but I am back playing some Vanilla when I want a challenge. Unfortunately the majority of players play on TPV servers and since my friends and I are out there trying to bandit hunt we need to go where they go and that is populated servers. So I am STILL playing TPV but I still know in my heart my experiences in 1st person were much more visceral and sincere.

I just jumped into some Battlefield 3 last night and the forced FPV made it instense. I got into a counter sniping battle with another sniper where we would move, acquire each other, exchange shots, break off, move and repeat. With 3rd person I would have just watched for his movement from cover(I had a slightly better area with a long wall and several other terrain pieces I could use while he had a couple places of cover with some open area between them) and popped up and shot him as he moved. As it was I had to risk my head to get glimpses of his movement so I didn't lose him and have him flank me. That made that battle intense... until I realized that dying just meant a 10 second run back into a position where I could cut him off with all my gear topped off. 

So in my informed opinion from 20+ years of computer gaming in games that were both 1st person and 3rd person there is a great deal more tension and suspense in the former that the second can not capture especially in the manner DayZ has it. If a person wants to play DayZ for PVP then FPV makes sense. If a person wants to play DayZ for a horror/survival sim then FPV makes sense, the less information you give a person the more their imagination works overtime this is why good horror movies hold off on showing the "monster" or what is going on until the pace of the movie picks up. For a game that combines elements of both, in my opinion, it makes sense to use the more limited FPV and force players to look around and risk themselves for that information they need to survive. 

 

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Agreed. But to stick with your analogy, what do you suppose to be the right way to do:

 

Showing these kids how much better their lives would be if they got in shape (introduce your friends to first person, post exciting youtube videos about it)

and provide sport clubs and diet to make it happen (make sure enough first person only servers are available),

 

or

 

forcing it on them by outlawing obesity (third person view), like some crazy totalitarian government would?

No lol.

 

To stick with my fat kid analogy (your fault)...  I just wouldn't fill my cupboards with crisps, pies and sweets.  As a responsible parent I would make sure the choices that are available to him are sensible ones that aren't going to turn him into a bully-magnet at school.

 

Currently in my opinion, the mod has become that bloated kid who's parents don't know when to say no.  Server admins have too much choice and the DayZ that many are currently playing is a bloated fatty with a high chance of becoming diabetic.

 

The SA offers the devs a chance to take back control of that experience and refine it.  I'd like to see the 3rd person camera refined as part of that process or to labour the analogy a bit more to remove all the shit from the cupboards.  

 

Remember that I'm not actually arguing for it (3rd person cam) to be removed, it's HIGHLY unlikely it will be, I would like to see it refined though because I feel that way it works currently is detrimental to gameplay.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Fraggle

[wolfstriked 143]

Don't know if you guys keep up with Arma3 mods but I figured you might like this mod.It allows 3rd person but restricts peeking around corners to the characters actual line of sight.

 

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162139-Third-Person-Limiter-Thing

[Ken Bean 175]

However, my friends gravitated towards 3rd person servers because 3rd person is actually much easier. I am not talking about PVP either. On those servers you could quickly and easily scan for zombies all around you without loosing tactical knowledge.

The game is not easier in 3rd p. Zeds are as same as hard as in 1st person. Everything is identical to 1st person. Its clearly not a different game. One thing which is different is, you have a better self awarenes of your char and better oversight. You don't feel so cut off, like in 1st person, which actually realy a let down in regards of awareness. And no, 1st person is not realistic. Its like only having one eye instead of two.

As said and pointed out. Everyone has the same opportunity to switch from 1st to 3rd person and the other way round. No one has an advantage. Everyone has the same abilities. So under the bottom line, being able to switch two 3rd p is fair for everyone since everyone on such a server can do it.

And yes, in real life you actually can "quickly and easily scan for zombies". Its not like they could sneak behind you if you actually use you ability to look through your eyes and turn the head a bit, using ears and stuff.

Ever played foodball or soccer? Yes, you know where they are.

You have a better oversight but on the other hand you cant figh't properly in 3rdp. You'll not hit if you stand more than 3 m away and maybe move a bit.

With the same right you could say "It's just and only the 1st persons view fault! If there were no 1st person, every fight would be equal." (We all have two views, so what? Result is the same.)

So yes! I say its all the 1st persons fault. Remove it and we have a perfectly balanced game with equal chances. Prove me wrong if you can. :P

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ken Bean

[mercules 1290]

The game is not easier in 3rd p. Zeds are as same as hard as in 1st person. Everything is identical to 1st person. Its clearly not a different game. The only thing which is different is, you have a better self awarenes of your char and better oversight. You don't feel so cut off, like in 1st person, which actually really a let down in regards of awareness. And no, 1st person is not realistic. Its like only having one eye instead of two.

As said and pointed out. Everyone has the same opportunity to switch from 1st to 3rd person and the other way round. No one has an advantage. Everyone has the same abilities. So under the bottom line, being able to switch two 3rd p fair for everyone since everyone on such a server can do it.

And yes, in real life you actually can "quickly and easily scan for zombies". Its not like they could sneak behind you if you actually use you ability to look through your eyes and turn the head a bit, using ears and stuff.

Ever played foodball or soccer? Yes, you know where they are.

You have a better oversight but you cant figh't properly in 3rdp. You'll not hit if you stand more than 3 m away and maybe move a bit.

With the same right you could say "It's just and only the 1st persons view fault!"

 

The game is harder in FPV. To see a Zombie you have to actually peek out. To see a person you have to actually peek out. To land a chopper you have to practice because you can't just swing into TPV and free-look and see how level the ground is below you or if your rotor is going to hit that tree/bush/antenna. You can't scan OVER a wall in FPV and see that the zombie you hear behind that wall is actually walking away from the corner or towards it, you have to go to the corner and look around, possibly right into the view of that Zombie. You have to look over your shoulder while driving a car if you want to back up. You have to turn your head or turn around to see the zombie that just walked up right behind you. While in a turret on a vehicle you have to swing the whole turret around and can't magically know that there is a zombie attacking the vehicle from the right side while you are facing the left. You can't see over the line of the hill, or low laws , or lay flat behind a bush and see over it to watch a zombie cross in front of you while out of sight of the zombie. There is a blindspot that exists looking around in FPV that requires you to turn slightly to look behind you but in TPV it is gone. 

You have an awareness of a 3-4 meter area around your body that you do not have in real life as well as an awareness of what is down the hall, in that room, over that wall, over the edge of the building, behind that tree/bush/rock/car, and so on. The game is MUCH easier in TPV. I've played limited to FPV and the game becomes more difficult, you have to take more precautions around zombies and players and vehicles become something you need practice with to be good enough to try anything risky like landing on a small building top with obstacles. 

Edited August 26, 2013 by Mercules

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

The reason first person servers are pretty much abandoned is because of a vicious circle. Players want to play with other players. So they are attracted to populated server. Over time, new players to DayZ overwhelmed the old population and the "easy" servers started to become the most popular. About a year ago, it became very difficult to find a first person server with more than 10 people in it. Since then it's gone even further down hill. Server owners want their server to be popular, so they adapt to what the popular servers are offering.

 

For the last year I've played on third person servers, using third person view constantly. This isn't because I secretly like third person but want to appear all thug and hardcore on the forums. It's because I value having 50 players in the same virtual world more than I value the benefits of first person. It can be the most intense immersive experience ever, but if there's little to no threat of human contact, I might as well play single player. It's no longer DayZ to me.

 

I started using third person view after having multiple instances where other people using third person view directly influenced my game. I would get spotted from around corners, or by people laying in the grass. I would lose track of friendlies due to my disorientation in first person, but they'd remind me how easy it was for them to see me in third person. After switching to third I had my life saved countless times by the exploitable view. And I wasn't even trying to exploit it, you just can't help it. When you enter a ATC tower and start to walk up the stairs to see someone with an AK pointed at the top of the stairs. I should have died by them, but the para-scope saved my life. Then there's the countless times I've stuck my body in a bush and watched people walk right past me.

 

I think the thing I hate most about this discussion is the response about situational awareness or body in the environment feeling better in third person view. But, the thing is we're all restricted to the same view. Who cares if first person creates tunnel vision and makes it difficult to see zombies around you, who cares if you can't peak over the grass like you could in real life. Who cares about situational awareness. Who cares because we're all in the same boat. This isn't a game played against humans, it's a game played against other computers, we're all equally unaware of our situations. Expecting our real life situational awareness to translate into the video game is an unrealistic expectation and has never been done even with the most elaborate virtual reality setups. Third person view is like giving a blind man a flying drone that feeds images to his brain and saying he'll see just like everyone else.

Edited August 26, 2013 by bad_mojo

[Ken Bean 175]

To land a chopper you have to practice because you can't just swing into TPV and free-look and see how level the ground is below you or if your rotor is going to hit that tree/bush/antenna.

Yeah, you almost can't tell where you are in 1st person. In real life you can easily say so. That's why the 3rd person view gives you a little back in regards of self awareness. In return it almost makes you completely unable to fight.

 

I've played limited to FPV and the game becomes more difficult, you have to take more precautions around zombies and players and vehicles become something you need practice with to be good enough to try anything risky like landing on a small building top with obstacles.

Yeah, I tried so as well and I clearly have to say that not to have a 3rd person view annoys me in almost every game. Maybe I'm too old but I play games since more than 20 years and I can tell: I love 3rd person. Old games most of the time didn't even have a 1st person view. It's like every analog game from monopoly to chess: There's no 1st person and they are immersive as well and thats good and no issue.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ken Bean

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Yeah, you almost can't tell where you are in 1st person. In real life you can easily say so. That's why the 3rd person view gives you a little back in regards of self awareness. In return it almost makes you completely unable to fight.

What are you on about? Go watch some of Dslyecxis videos if you want to see how good a pilot can be in first person view. It requires you to do things a real pilot would do like find a good landing zone and plan your approach.

[Ken Bean 175]

What are you on about? Go watch some of Dslyecxis videos if you want to see how good a pilot can be in first person view. It requires you to do things a real pilot would do like find a good landing zone and plan your approach.

Dude, I flew countless times. To really land a heli in a nice spot, you need 3rd p since you absolutely cant tell where you really are without. Maybe the altitute you'll get from the armatures. That not really is a problem. But I landed a hue on the roof of a castle several times and believe me, in 1st person only, you'll not feel like knowing where you are. In real life, you clearly have other problems to face than just not being able to figure out your position in a room.

This may sound a little strange, but just knowing where you are is sth which really is build in to humans. Maybe it's a remnand from our ape-like ancestors but we just have an awesome self awarenes in almost every situation in almost every enviroment. Not because of the zeds, but maybe because of natural enemies. If there's a dude somewhere in a radius which can be overseen, you'll spot him. (We for the moment just ignore those awesome abilities to hide and cover - which zeds most of the time dont even try.)

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Tempus (DayZ) 1062]

Currently in my opinion, the mod has become that bloated kid who's parents don't know when to say no.  Server admins have too much choice and the DayZ that many are currently playing is a bloated fatty with a high chance of becoming diabetic.

 

The SA offers the devs a chance to take back control of that experience and refine it.  I'd like to see the 3rd person camera refined as part of that process or to labour the analogy a bit more to remove all the shit from the cupboards.  

 

Remember that I'm not actually arguing for it (3rd person cam) to be removed, it's HIGHLY unlikely it will be, I would like to see it refined though because I feel that way it works currently is detrimental to gameplay.

 

Well, I can totally see your point, and as I said earlier, I believe first person view to be "superior" (in feel, not mechanics-wise) and more like the way it is meant to be.

 

I'm still not convinced SA should be more restrictive with a lot of server-side options, though. Maybe I can't realize the extent of deterioration, as I only play vanilla, but I still think people should be allowed to make their own decisions. We'll have to agree to disagree there and wait and see what the SA will be like. :)

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

To really land a heli in a nice spot, you need 3rd p since you absolutely cant tell where you really are without.

You might need trackIR to be really effective, but I'm sure people manage just fine without that even. I've landed in some pretty tight spots using first person with no trackir, and I'm very bad at flying in Arma, I've only had maybe 5 hrs in the air.

 

I don't get your "can't tell where you are" statement tho. You're in the cockpit of the helicopter, you should get a good idea of where the helicopter is based on what you see out the front/side windows. Perhaps you can't see what is around you, but you should already know what is around you if you're trying to land there.

 

No excuses.

 

Edit:

Edited August 26, 2013 by bad_mojo

[tommes 331]

Dude, I flew countless times. To really land a heli in a nice spot, you need 3rd p since you absolutely cant tell where you really are without. Maybe the altitute you'll get from the armatures. That not really is a problem. But I landed a hue on the roof of a castle several times and believe me, in 1st person only, you'll not feel like knowing where you are. In real life, you clearly have other problems to face than just not being able to figure out your position in a room.

That's what pilots have to deal with. They learn it with practice.

There's a reason why not everybody can master helicopter flight. It's difficult. There's no keyboard shortcut to easy mode in real life. There's no 3rd person view. You have to rely on your vision, mirrors and maybe getting directions from other people.

Sure, the view through a single monitor with it's limited FOV makes it even harder, but to use this as an excuse to easy mode is lame. I'd vote for a 3 monitor setup with TrackIR for everybody but 1st person view only. There'd be no excuses left.

[Ken Bean 175]

You might need trackIR to be really effective, but I'm sure people manage just fine without that even. I've landed in some pretty tight spots using first person with no trackir, and I'm very bad at flying in Arma, I've only had maybe 5 hrs in the air.

 

I don't get your "can't tell where you are" statement tho. You're in the cockpit of the helicopter, you should get a good idea of where the helicopter is based on what you see out the front/side windows. Perhaps you can't see what is around you, but you should already know what is around you if you're trying to land there.

 

No excuses.

 

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSd2rAcqFUc&list=PLQEd6zRLOafVn1SweJmdr-3ICqI885awY

Not really unrealistic. But if Im not mislead I think you cant land that fast in Dayz without damaging sth.

 

Sure, the view through a single monitor with it's limited FOV makes it even harder, but to use this as an excuse to easy mode is lame.

You also can drive a car if you blind two third of your windshield. It's just meh. Thats why they dont do it.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Jamz 253]

Sounds like we've moved on to 'everyone should have to use 1st person cos 3rd is EZmode' rather than addressing the issue at hand. I still maintain that any advantage that third person could give in a given situation could be fixed without it's removal. If this is possible then there is simply plausable argument to go first person only. Why people are still banging on about making everyone play first person only seems to be a personal issue for some.

 

If the advantages of third person are eliminated, then why do you care that other players might prefer that view to first person? 31 pages and still no actual answer to this question...

[Hosty 647]

Even if third person remains it should always be off in vehicles. There is NO argument supporting why it should be possible or has a place whilst driving or flying.

Anyways, third person is easy mode. Get rid of it! :)

 

I have bad times driving/flying in third person, which is why I never do it.

 

Am I the only one?

[Hosty 647]

Wait, how did this reach 30 pages?

Edited August 26, 2013 by Hosty

[St. Jimmy 1631]

I have bad times driving/flying in third person, which is why I never do it.

 

Am I the only one?

I've the same problem with cars. It's harder to play racing games or control a car from 3rd person. I always turn too much in 3rd person.

[Ken Bean 175]

Both views have advantages and disadvantages.

Using the right view at the right moment just is another challenge. ;-)

Edited August 26, 2013 by Ken Bean

[dsi24 227]

Sounds like we've moved on to 'everyone should have to use 1st person cos 3rd is EZmode' rather than addressing the issue at hand. I still maintain that any advantage that third person could give in a given situation could be fixed without it's removal. If this is possible then there is simply plausable argument to go first person only. Why people are still banging on about making everyone play first person only seems to be a personal issue for some.

 

If the advantages of third person are eliminated, then why do you care that other players might prefer that view to first person? 31 pages and still no actual answer to this question...

Yeah you could rein in third person, but what's the point of going through all that effort when you can much more easily remove it without any negative effects? IDK about you but I'd rather play DayZ SA before 2020.

But Ken, the right view is always third person. You can use it to see through walls and objects, and when you need to shoot you just tap a button and you're in already aiming down the sights. Third person is too easy to exploit for it to stay.

(PS: I love how third person players are discounting every single poll that proves them wrong, the level of denial is absolutely hilarious)

Edited August 26, 2013 by Dsi1