First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[ZooBeastman 12]

it renders stealth and cunning obsolete

 

At certain angles.

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

At certain angles.

precisely

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

Game-breaking?

Having the opportunity to be able to see something that would probably matter to you where you should not be aware of them, is game-breaking. Re-watch the video. It has some solid examples of it so far.

[ZooBeastman 12]

I'm not sure what just happened there.

[ZooBeastman 12]

Having the opportunity to be able to see something that would probably matter to you where you should not be aware of them, is game-breaking. Re-watch the video. It has some solid examples of it so far.

 

There's nothing in the video that stops the game functioning.

 

Your definition of should is not within the context of the game.

Edited August 24, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

I'm not sure what just happened there.

Then may I ask what you are exactly doing in this thread?

 

 

 

There's nothing in the video that stops the game functioning.

If something appears to break the casual game-play and turn it out to be something else, it is then a game-breaker. Why would someone feel the need to understand the whole content of the point as breaking the functioning of the game in the first place? That is pretty much off-topic, good sir.

Edited August 24, 2013 by SoulHunter

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

I'm not sure what just happened there.

don't worry, take a sip of water and breath slowly, I think the penny has dropped for you buddy

[dsi24 227]

Again with the tired use of the word exploit when all your actually saying is using the cam = bad. No its no the same as wallhacks, no using a camera implemented by a game that offers unrealistic views of the world is not cheating, its the game. I have unrealstic views of the game world in many games, that is not cheating.

 

Hooking into the memory and overlaying graphics where players are is very different.

Stop arguing about the differences in how they're implemented, that isn't my point and you damn well know it. You know as well as everyone that there is no effective difference between a wallhack and third person, both of them do the exact same thing. They both let you see what other players are doing through walls. I'm saying exploiting the cam is bad, and that the cam is so easily exploited most people don't even think about it or realize what they're doing.

Those other third person games you mention are very specifically balanced to lessen the impact of third person. They (and let's be honest here, there's only one, Gears of War) are very fast paced, very tight quarters, and based more on reaction times than on strategy. The entire game is designed around using third person, getting the jump on someone doesn't mean victory unless you get within melee range. If you shoot someone at range they live on the ground for a period of time, because instantly dying due to an asymmetry of information would be enraging and the devs knew that. The game's cover system is very purposefully designed to tell you where someone is taking cover through their gun sticking out or the creation of effects on taking cover, because the devs knew (or quickly found out through playtesting) that third person's asymmetry of information is exacerbated when someone has the ability to hide so easily. Every single mechanic in Gears of War is designed around how broken third person is in a shooter environment.

Gears of War obviously isn't like ArmA or DayZ, where knowing where someone is without them knowing where you are gives you complete control of whether they live or die. So why should ArmA or DayZ carry around this handicap?

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

Stop arguing about the differences in how they're implemented, that isn't my point and you damn well know it. You know as well as everyone that there is no effective difference between a wallhack and third person, both of them do the exact same thing. They both let you see what other players are doing through walls. I'm saying exploiting the cam is bad, and that the cam is so easily exploited most people don't even think about it or realize what they're doing.

Those other third person games you mention are very specifically balanced to lessen the impact of third person. They (and let's be honest here, there's only one, Gears of War) are very fast paced, very tight quarters, and based more on reaction times than on strategy. The entire game is designed around using third person, getting the jump on someone doesn't mean victory unless you get within melee range. If you shoot someone at range they live on the ground for a period of time, because instantly dying due to an asymmetry of information would be enraging and the devs knew that. The game's cover system is very purposefully designed to tell you where someone is taking cover through their gun sticking out or the creation of effects on taking cover, because the devs knew (or quickly found out through playtesting) that third person's asymmetry of information is exacerbated when someone has the ability to hide so easily. Every single mechanic in Gears of War is designed around how broken third person is in a shooter environment.

Gears of War obviously isn't like ArmA or DayZ, where knowing where someone is without them knowing where you are gives you complete control of whether they live or die. So why should ArmA or DayZ carry around this handicap?

Nice attempt, but if he could not understand even the point of this thread still, then he just does not want to understand it.

 

There is imo literally nothing we can do to make people understand the only noobish way of the use of 3rd person who just used to check the walls/corners every time they play a game. They cannot live without being able to be sure if there is someone around or not. They feel the need to see through walls and such. It is one of the main reasons why hacks like ESP exists in the first place anyway.

[ZooBeastman 12]

don't worry, take a sip of water and breath slowly, I think the penny has dropped for you buddy

 

I suspect third person will be fully functional within the release. I respect you have different views on how you would like to see the game played and thankfully the mod and likely the game will include both options. I suspect the third person will be more popular.

 

I have no seen any additional points raise beyond the first, I would rather the game functions like I want it to because I consider something clearly within the games design to be cheating. I see this being stretched far beyond comparability by suggesting using the camera is like using third-party software; I suppose using a gun to kill someone it like using a script to kill someone...why not.

 

I imagine most people who utilise the third person do so for fun, because they like third person games (and suggesting that looking at your gear menu to view your character is a sensible alternative suggests a lack of understanding of why people like third person games).

 

I'm afraid your cries of exploit and cheat just look rather petty when compared with the video this thread was based upon.

Edited August 24, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[ZooBeastman 12]

Nice attempt, but if he could not understand even the point of this thread still, then he just does not want to understand it.

 

There is imo literally nothing we can do to make people understand the only noobish way of the use of 3rd person who just used to check the walls/corners every time they play a game. They cannot live without being able to be sure if there is someone around or not. They feel the need to see through walls and such. It is one of the main reasons why hacks like ESP exists in the first place anyway.

 

I assume you ignored the post where I suggest not drawing models out of line of sight would be a good idea.... the point I am making is the ability to see around corners isn't what makes third person games fun.

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

 the point I am making is the ability to see around corners isn't what makes third person games fun.

again we agree :beans: it makes them arcade shooters

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

I assume you ignored the post where I suggest not drawing models out of line of sight would be a good idea.... the point I am making is the ability to see around corners isn't what makes third person games fun.

But which is the main point of this thread as I am now mentioning the 3rd time. Therefore I'm asking again:"What are you doing in this thread?" Just being curious because you seem pretty much more than off-topic. No one here says that 3rd person is no fun, but a game-breaker in regards to PvP aspect of almost any game.

 

 

I'm afraid your cries of exploit and cheat just look rather petty when compared with the video this thread was based upon.

It is not cry. Believe it or not, like it or dislike it, It still is a literal fact that 3rd person is used to cheat to look behind walls and anything else to gain more advantage over someone else in the games. That is the main reason of this thread being existing. (4th time I am meantioning this now.) Due to which, you are being off-topic here.

[terrvik 2409]

I assume you ignored the post where I suggest not drawing models out of line of sight would be a good idea.... the point I am making is the ability to see around corners isn't what makes third person games fun.

 

But it's probably why it's so popular in DayZ. I'm not saying third person per say is a bad thing (in other games, or in general) but in my opinion it doesn't fit what DayZ is trying to do.

 

Some people surely like third person because they find it more fun but I would bet my last cup of coffee (that's nothing I'll lose easy, just saying!) that the majority uses it for it's corner bending abilities.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[dsi24 227]

I assume you ignored the post where I suggest not drawing models out of line of sight would be a good idea.... the point I am making is the ability to see around corners isn't what makes third person games fun.

What makes third person games fun? I liked Gears of War, it was a fast paced gorefest with great reloading mechanics, grenade mechanics, and fun melee. But that doesn't describe ArmA or DayZ at all... so what makes it fun?

If your answer is the vanity of seeing your character you should have a long hard think about what games you really want to play.

[ZooBeastman 12]

Off-topic? Again I am boggled.

 

Its a fact, that using the camera deployed by the game is a cheat? That's simply not true. It's only a fact you consider it a cheat. It is not game breaking; I am under the impression (perhaps misguided) that the mod did rather well for itself; this seems unlikely given it has had a game breaking bug since conception.

[terrvik 2409]

I am under the impression (perhaps misguided) that the mod did rather well for itself; this seems unlikely given it has had a game breaking bug since conception.

 

You are very correct, it was extremely unlikely. :)

 

I remember when you used to fall off ladders if you had your sidearm equipped. Fun times!

 

EDIT: Ok, this was off topic. Point is: there were, are and will be many game breaking "bugs". This thread is to discuss way to "fix" them.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

Off-topic? Again I am boggled.

 

Its a fact, that using the camera deployed by the game is a cheat? That's simply not true. It's only a fact you consider it a cheat. It is not game breaking; I am under the impression (perhaps misguided) that the mod did rather well for itself; this seems unlikely given it has had a game breaking bug since conception.

 

As you can see you yourself admitted that it is not nice of 3rd person being used to exploit to gain more advantage over other people as well as the aspect of which is not what makes TPV fun.

I assume you ignored the post where I suggest not drawing models out of line of sight would be a good idea.... the point I am making is the ability to see around corners isn't what makes third person games fun.

[ZooBeastman 12]

What makes third person games fun? I liked Gears of War, it was a fast paced gorefest with great reloading mechanics, grenade mechanics, and fun melee. But that doesn't describe ArmA or DayZ at all... so what makes it fun?

If your answer is the vanity of seeing your character you should have a long hard think about what games you really want to play.

 

Erm.. aren't you suggesting that a game which fundamentally offers full third person support shouldn't and I'm the one who needs to think about what games I really want to play? What does that even mean.

 

 Some people surely like third person because they find it more fun but I would bet my last cup of coffee (that's nothing I'll lose easy, just saying!) that the majority uses it for it's corner bending abilities.

 

This is pure conjecture.

[ZooBeastman 12]

As you can see you yourself admitted that it is not nice of 3rd person being used to exploit to gain more advantage over other people as well as the aspect of which is not what makes TPV fun.

 

Its a game, there are more things that tweaking the camera that are not ideal with it. That doesn't make it game breaking or require the removal of a whole perspective of play. It just makes it not ideal. Everyone has the same options.

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

 

This is pure conjecture.

 

 

this is pure OJ Simpson

Edited August 24, 2013 by (MUC) Feral

[ZooBeastman 12]

You are very correct, it was extremely unlikely. :)

 

I remember when you used to fall off ladders if you had your sidearm equipped. Fun times!

 

EDIT: Ok, this was off topic. Point is: there were, are and will be many game breaking "bugs". This thread is to discuss way to "fix" them.

 

Maybe we have different definitions of game-breaking. The mod has issues, but nothing game-breaking or you wouldn't be able to play it.

[terrvik 2409]

This is pure conjecture.

 

I don't know the meaning of the word.

 

I really don't.

 

 

Maybe we have different definitions of game-breaking. The mod has issues, but nothing game-breaking or you wouldn't be able to play it.

 

But it used to have!

Edited August 24, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[dsi24 227]

Off-topic? Again I am boggled.

 

Its a fact, that using the camera deployed by the game is a cheat? That's simply not true. It's only a fact you consider it a cheat. It is not game breaking; I am under the impression (perhaps misguided) that the mod did rather well for itself; this seems unlikely given it has had a game breaking bug since conception.

I really like this, you don't seem to have any difference in your head between "running around with third person" and "using third person to see through walls". It really shows what you see third person as, not a vanity tool like you like to pretend it is to argue for keeping it (and the fact that that's your best argument for keeping it is very telling too), but as your anything and everything tool.

Third person is a game mechanic, a tool, and just like any tool, it can be used for something bad. Most people try to block off the bad uses of tools in their games, and once they go through all the ideas for making third person work, realize it isn't worth the effort and would rather just get rid of it entirely. But not you, and I have to wonder if you'll ever say why.

[ZooBeastman 12]

I don't know the meaning of the word.

 

I really don't.

 

 

 

But it used to have!

 

Well at least we now agree third person isn't game breaking then :P