First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[terrvik 2409]

yes because clearly the scenario is never reversed !!!

 

how is this scenario any different then any other countless chance to run into someone unseen ??? being popped from atop sniper hill in cherno ? unfair i cant see you wayyy over there under the tree, i guess we should remove trees and snipers to ?

 

You miss the point quite spectacularly. Well done.

[mercules 1290]

100% agree.

 

Again, another case where you put yourself in a poor tactical situation: you walk in a street fully visible to each and every window of each and every floor (and whoever is on the street on top) but you can scan only a fraction of that  vast environment.

 

A sniper would kill you easily with or without 3dp. 

 

_Anubis_

 

The tactical situation isn't as poor though when the Sniper must expose himself to track your progress. 

With 3rd person he knows RIGHT where you are and simply has to move up and fix his aim. With 1st person he either has to peek and possibly give you notice from his movement, making noise, or being slightly visible ~or~ track you by sound/shadow and pop up when he believes you are in the kill zone, acquire the target, aim, and fire.

With the one you are putting yourself at great risk with little to no chance of being sure how great it is, in the other you are putting yourself at moderate risk. Moving slowly and surely down the street to not make noise makes NO difference with 3rd but a big difference with 1st. Now he HAS to look to figure out where you are in the street or might not get warning that you are about to spot him or pass his ambush. Either he remains exposed and possible sniped himself, or he moves and possible alerts the silent person who then can zero in on his position or get away. 

The game is different and more tactical in strictly 1st person. 

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

I prefer third person when moving around and first when in combat, third person isn't the problem though and it doesn't need to be removed. The exploits associated with it however do need to be fixed from a gameplay/balance standpoint (looking around walls, over ledges/walls from complete safety) Does anyone have any valid reasons why those exploits should be kept? So far I haven't seen any other then people want to continue using it as a crutch.

 

I think people are asking the wrong questions tbh, it's not "should third person be removed" but "how can we improve third person gameplay/balance wise and limit it's exploits."

 

well said, but its a slippery slope.

 

what is a exploit ? who decides that ???

Edited August 23, 2013 by Siberian

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

yes because clearly the scenario is never reversed !!!

 

how is this scenario any different then any other countless chance to run into someone unseen ??? being popped from atop sniper hill in cherno ? unfair i cant see you wayyy over there under the tree, i guess we should remove trees and snipers to ?

Stop being silly and try to offer a good reason as to why you think there is currently no issue with the current third person cam.  Then we can talk.

[ZooBeastman 12]

The thing is, the reason for liking something is largely irrelevant given the context and scale of its err... likedness (hey its late here) . We know both cameras are liked by many people; there are countless examples of games which use both.

 

I do not understand your use of the word exploit in this situation. How is viewing someone in this manner exploiting it any more than you exploit the first person camera to view someone; you only exploit it in the literal sense; that is in no way wrong which seems to be your implication.

 

It is not a bug which can be 'exploited' or a mechanic that is unintended, it was literally made that way. You exploit the money you get when you pass go in monopoly; that does not make it wrong; it is just not to your taste.

[dgeesio 1034]

Because carrying one of these is inconvenient?

 

 

I still haven't heard any great arguments for third person, apart from "I like it better".

 

I also don't see any easy or worthwhile way to fix the issues with it.

 because you aint reading posts then. i put numerous reasons.

 

just lock the thread take it out or keep it wont matter regradless because the simply fact is more people use 3rd person thn play with 1st.

 

yet minority want it gone so be it. youll be the ones wholl kill the game with idealisms and well end up knitting wooly hats instead of having fun.

 

this thread is full of biased bs tbh.

 

all those who are pro first person oooh you havent given us a reason.

 

best thing is i know for a fact some of these responding only play first person servers. lol.

 

its the game mechanics not third person to blame. tweak the cameras.

 

 

close the thead cuse all it causes it arguing and at end of day rocket or matt will do as they want anyway. regardless of wht we talk about becuase if you actually looked more people play 3rd person whether people like it or not.

Edited August 23, 2013 by dgeesio

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

 because you ant reading posts then. i put numerous reasons.

 

just lock the thread take it out or keep it wont matter regradless because the simply fact is moe people use 3rd person thn play with 1st.

 

yet minority want it gone so be it. youll be the ones wholl kill the game with idealisms and well end up knitting wooly hats instead of having fun.

Well done for not reading anything.

 

We're discussing alternatives, not removing it.  The devs will be reading this to see what players are thinking about the situation.  This is not an argument, it's just people putting forward their opinions.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Fraggle

[ZooBeastman 12]

A good question would be is the third person camera as good as it can be? in gameplay terms.

 

If the current third person camera is best in class, then changing it would be worse than the current option of allowing servers to choose. If it isn't best in class, then perhaps it can be improved; I don't just mean regarding peaking.

Edited August 23, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[mercules 1290]

yes because clearly the scenario is never reversed !!!

 

how is this scenario any different then any other countless chance to run into someone unseen ??? being popped from atop sniper hill in cherno ? unfair i cant see you wayyy over there under the tree, i guess we should remove trees and snipers to ?

 

I can, however, SEE the sniper on the hill in Cherno if I bother to check on a 1st person server. I can't SEE the person in a building because of the way the camera works, the closer you are to a vision barrier the less cover others have. So the wall protects them but not me and if the only approach to see into the building is to move through that open space, then yeah it is very different than a sniper on the hill. For one thing I can check the hill by going over there and then going into Cherno and I can keep checking it with binoculars or scopes. If he wants to watch me he has to be partially visible himself. That doesn't mean he might be EASY to see, but there is a chance. There are some locations where you have literally no chance of seeing them while they can see you because of 3rd person. It creates an inequity that doesn't exist without 3rd person.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

A good question would be is the third person camera as good as it can be? in gameplay terms.

 

If the current third person camera is best in class, then changing it would be worse than the current option of allowing servers to choose. If it isn't best in class, then perhaps it can be improved; I don't just mean regarding peaking.

Exactly.  If something can be improved upon what's the harm in at least discussing it?

[JESUSARIUS REX (DayZ) 163]

Unless they add the stance system from arma 3, I think 3rd needs to stay. Why? Let's say you want to look over a small wall, but you can't while crouched. Well its either stand up all the way and become a huge target or use 3rd person to see. Because in a game like days, I think a simple crouch stand prone doesn't work. I don't mind poking my head out with the stance system. I mean think about it. IRL if someone was shooting at you would you stand up? No, you'd peek around, above, or under. I like the more realistic situational awareness third gives you, but I'll give that up if we have a better stance system.

[dgeesio 1034]

Well done for not reading anything.

 

We're discussing alternatives, not removing it.

 

i understnd fully you are going to gimp third person. we are arguing about it when it will be done if its wanted. so just lock it off do what you want.

 

gimping the most popular playstyle to suit a minority. not smart.

 

 

i love how whenever someone doesnt agree with you its i dont understand. i fully understand stop being silly.

Edited August 23, 2013 by dgeesio

[mercules 1290]

well said, but its a slippery slope.

 

what is a exploit ? who decides that ???

Exploit - to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage

There are spaces in Chernarus that you can't approach and be able to see if someone is in them from 3rd person but they can have full view of you because of use of 3rd person. They can "exploit" that flaw in the 3rd person camera. Covering fire largely becomes useless when you can remain fully in cover and still see the person firing. 3rd person also does away with the "lean" mechanics that exist in DayZ, why have them when they don't do anything in 3rd person? I look at the movement mechanics and the aiming mechanics and I can see that ARMA was designed to be played in 1st person perspective. Seriously, that is what the lean mechanic is ALL about. If the intent was to be played that way then playing it in another way is considered an "exploit". Another definition is "gaining an advantage by using a system in a way it was not intended to be used". I don't think they put a lean mechanic into ARMA if the intent was to look around corners in 3rd person all the time. 

Edited August 23, 2013 by Mercules

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

i understnd fully you are going to gimp third person. we are arguing about it when it will be done if its wanted. so just lock it off do what you want.

 

gimping the most popular playstyle to suit a minority. not smart.

 

 

i love how whenever someone doesnt agree with you its i dont understand. i fully understand stop being silly.

Wut?  I'm not going to gimp anything,  it's not down to me at all.  I'm just using this opportunity to put forward my views.  The devs are interested to know how peeps feel about the cameras and how they're used, hence this thread.  You should be happy we have devs that actually read the forums and take peoples views into account when making important decisions.

 

You can either get defensive and pissed off or offer some solid reasoning behind your own viewpoint.  The latter will probably be taken more seriously when they read this thread.

 

Anyhoo, I'm off for the night, this is bloody draining.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Fraggle

[mercules 1290]

Unless they add the stance system from arma 3, I think 3rd needs to stay. Why? Let's say you want to look over a small wall, but you can't while crouched. Well its either stand up all the way and become a huge target or use 3rd person to see. Because in a game like days, I think a simple crouch stand prone doesn't work. I don't mind poking my head out with the stance system. I mean think about it. IRL if someone was shooting at you would you stand up? No, you'd peek around, above, or under. I like the more realistic situational awareness third gives you, but I'll give that up if we have a better stance system.

 

I would really like the Stance system to come over. I do still think 3rd gives you too much situational awareness to the point that it removes certain practices and tactics from the game. 

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

I prefer third person when moving around and first when in combat, third person isn't the problem though and it doesn't need to be removed. The exploits associated with it do though (looking around walls, over ledges/walls from complete safety) Does anyone have any valid reasons why those exploits should be kept? So far I haven't seen any other then people want to continue using it as a crutch.

 

A voice of wisdom in this Taliban contest.

 

There are no valid reasons (just as there are no valid reasons to be able to glitch thru the wall of the fire station via the ladder, just to make an example) those are just side effects of any 3dp view.

 

A GPU renders an image in perspective by choosing the position of the camera and its cone of vision (angle and distance): then all the elements within the cone are rendered from far to near or clipped.

 

In 1st person the camera is between my eyes, in 3rd it is slightly behind and above. Hence the periscope effect so I can see vertically above a ridge while being not exposed or peek from a corner sideways.

 

The only way around would be to alter in real-time the camera position in 3rd according to the distance of the nearest (to the eyes) element to avoid exploits but you could have graphic glitches (body clipping - see below) and most likely disorient people:

 

open viea in front of the player: normal 3dp camera position

graphic element close to the eyes of the player -> move 3dp camera position closer to eyes accordingly, direction perpendicolar to the surface of the nearest graphic element.

 

Examples:

 

I am close to a ridge so my 3rd camera moves nearer the eyes: when I am very close my 3dp is now a 1st (so I do not see my body fully, only parts of it and most likely badly clipped).

 

I face a tree in front of me, same.

 

I crouch behind a car: same.

 

I have a wall very close to my side and I look forward: nothing happens BUT if I turn or look on that side the camera moves.

 

And so on. Doesn't look that easy to implement, does it?

 

_Anubis_

[ZooBeastman 12]

Exploit - to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage

There are spaces in Chernarus that you can't approach and be able to see if someone is in them from 3rd person but they can have full view of you because of use of 3rd person. They can "exploit" that flaw in the 3rd person camera. Covering fire largely becomes useless when you can remain fully in cover and still see the person firing. 3rd person also does away with the "lean" mechanics that exist in DayZ, why have them when they don't do anything in 3rd person? I look at the movement mechanics and the aiming mechanics and I can see that ARMA was designed to be played in 1st person perspective. Seriously, that is what the lean mechanic is ALL about. If the intent was to be played that way then playing it in another way is considered an "exploit". Another definition is "gaining an advantage by using a system in a way it was not intended to be used". I don't think they put a lean mechanic into ARMA if the intent was to look around corners in 3rd person all the time. 

 

The problem with your use of the definition is you are declaring it 'unfair or underhanded' because it doesn't match your understanding of how the game should be played. In this situation it can only be used as a synonym for utilise.

 

"make practical and effective use of." 

 

Do I exploit the fact I have a gun and the other person doesn't in a way you would consider 'unfair'? Do I exploit that I am able to still see because I am unhurt while the person I am pursuing has been bleeding and barely has visibility left? Exploiting, as in utilising a camera, to see things; which is the primary purpose of a camera (I assume that is not contestable) is not exploiting in an unfair or underhanded manner, it is exploiting only in the sense that it utilises it.

Edited August 23, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[mercules 1290]

 because you aint reading posts then. i put numerous reasons. Which have been disputed and shown to be invalid.

 

just lock the thread take it out or keep it wont matter regradless because the simply fact is more people use 3rd person thn play with 1st. Several of us have explained both why we prefer 1st but play with 3rd OR why this is not a compelling arguement as to the value of 3rd over 1st.

 

yet minority want it gone so be it. youll be the ones wholl kill the game with idealisms and well end up knitting wooly hats instead of having fun. Locking into 1st person didn't kill Mechwarrior Online where the same debate came up.

 

this thread is full of biased bs tbh. Yes, please adjust your posts to remove some of it.

 

all those who are pro first person oooh you havent given us a reason. I have and the video in the OP gave several compelling reasons from the start of the conversation. Ignore them doesn't mean they were not given.

 

best thing is i know for a fact some of these responding only play first person servers. lol. My server is 3rd person because my friends would like to play that way. As stated before the main reason is because we do go to other servers and since many of them are third person they like the familiarity. My friends do not have an issue with 1st person though and if I changed the server over they would continue to play. I am still debating just doing it and seeing their responce.

 

its the game mechanics not third person to blame. tweak the cameras. Third Person is a game mechanic. ;)

 

 

close the thead cuse all it causes it arguing and at end of day rocket or matt will do as they want anyway. regardless of wht we talk about becuase if you actually looked more people play 3rd person whether people like it or not. We are having... well most of us... an intelligent discussion about the two perspectives. There are benifits to both but I think that a FPS style Survival Horror game calls for 1st Person because it will create tension and tension is important to the Horror Genre(ooops gave you another reason) More people eat McDonalds food too, that doesn't mean it is better than more healthy alternatives.

 

 

Comments in Red.

[ZooBeastman 12]

1st Person because it will create tension and tension is important to the Horror Genre

 

Comments in Red.

 

I don't know how well explored this is, I know I empathise more with characters I can see than those I can not. I have never felt like it is 'me' whilst in first person.

 

That said, the only game I really remember providing much terror for me was Myst on the Saturn.... and that was first person.

Edited August 23, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[terrvik 2409]

I don't know how well explored this is, I know I empathise more with characters I can see than those I can not. I have never felt like it is 'me' whilst in first person.

 

I like to use Amnesia as an example here. If I could look around corners using a similar exploit, which I think it is, that game wouldn't be half as scary as it is.

[mercules 1290]

The problem with your use of the definition is you are declaring it 'unfair or underhanded' because it doesn't match your understanding of how the game should be played. In this situation it can only be used as a synonym for utilise.

 

"make practical and effective use of." 

 

Do I exploit the fact I have a gun and the other person doesn't in a way you would consider 'unfair'? Do I exploit that I am able to still see because I am unhurt while the person I am pursuing has been bleeding and barely has visibility left? Exploiting, as in utilising a camera, to see things; which is the primary purpose of a camera (I assume that is not contestable) is not exploiting in an unfair or underhanded manner, it is exploiting only in the sense that it utilises it.

 

However, it would be unfair you to spawn in with a gun and for me to not. It  would be unfair for me to start bleeding for no reason and you to not. In this case it is unfair because you can take advantage of a low wall and be unapproachable by anyone who can see you but not be seen by you. Does this mean I should "exploit" empty servers to log in before anyone else and get into those "exploitable" positions? 

Also, as I stated I can make an educated guess as to what was meant to be used. You have the ability to lean around the corner. With 3rd person on that ability which took effort to code is literally useless. Ergo there was intent for the game to be played in 1st person which is the only perspective mode where having a lean ability makes sense. I think 3rd person was meant for those who can't or don't want to play the game is the designers intended ARMA to be played. If it was the primary intended role they wouldn't have bothered to code in the Lean ability. 

[ZooBeastman 12]

However, it would be unfair you to spawn in with a gun and for me to not. It  would be unfair for me to start bleeding for no reason and you to not. In this case it is unfair because you can take advantage of a low wall and be unapproachable by anyone who can see you but not be seen by you. Does this mean I should "exploit" empty servers to log in before anyone else and get into those "exploitable" positions? 

 

 

I don't think it would be an exploit or unfair no. Do you exploit the fact you spawn in a place with good loot or do you run halfway across the map to a worse place to avoid exploiting that game mechanic?

 

Also, as I stated I can make an educated guess as to what was meant to be used. You have the ability to lean around the corner. With 3rd person on that ability which took effort to code is literally useless. Ergo there was intent for the game to be played in 1st person which is the only perspective mode where having a lean ability makes sense. I think 3rd person was meant for those who can't or don't want to play the game is the designers intended ARMA to be played. If it was the primary intended role they wouldn't have bothered to code in the Lean ability.

 

This isn't logical, it suggests is one set of code, which makes another set of code less useful, must mean that the set of code made less useful must give hints to how the game should be played, as opposed the other code? I'm pretty sure while leaning less of the player is visible  my camera will not fire my gun for for me.

[ZooBeastman 12]

I also think your positioning of the word exploit is intended to make it pejorative, which I do not see as constructive.

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

@Mercules:

 

What you don't get is that you are giving a right/wrong, good/bad value to a choice (available to everybody) on the ground that it MUST be subjected to a judgement and considering this preference as equal to hacking/exploiting/bla-bla-bla.

 

If I hack a server I can do things the others can't. I have an unfair edge.This IS wrong, tnis IS bad.

If I play 3dp I am like any other player playing 3dp on the server. I have no edge. This is neither right or wrong, good or bad. Just a preference.

 

I'll make a last example for you to understand:

 

I am homosexual, you are hetero. Who cares. You are happy and so am I.

I am heterosexual you are homo. Who cares. We are both happy.

I am homosexual. You are a pedophile: I DO care. Everbody does. You can't be a pedophile, it is immoral, it is wrong, it is bad.

 

You are mixing having a sexual preference with being a pedophile.

 

_Anubis_

[ZooBeastman 12]

Probably could have found a better analogue.