Why do peoples actions need to dictate their appearance?

[OrLoK 16185]

It might serve but where would it go?  If it appears next to a player when you put your sights on him it would end being used to spot players the way nameplates/tags do.  If it was off to the side of the screen or something it would take your eyes off the prize, so to speak.  Then you have the issue of various lighting conditions, you wouldn't want a baby blue emoticon following you around, announcing your location to everyone at night.   :)

 

Something more subtle would work better imo.

agreed, what about  a "meter" display showing further info on a character?

 

L

[Wayze 549]

The thing is this: In real life bandits don't get a new life once dead. In real life people don't all look the exact same. So in real life the bandits would get identifiable over time, there would be things like "wanted" posters and even if not you can judge people a LOT by how they look at other people/at things, how they talk, what they say, IN REAL LIFE. Not in a game.

To make up for all that some other mechanic of identifying bad persons was added, even if not "elegant".

Wanted posters? Sure, if you see a bandit you take your time, make a picture, print that picture and go through the zombie filled city to hang these posters out. And of course everyone will trust you because a bandit could never get the idea to actually do the same with some normal survivors.

In a post apocalyptic scenario I bet my as* there won't be anything like "wanted" posters. Not in the first few years. And I also don't think there will be things like real, evil bandits. Everyone will fight for their lifes. Do you call a lion bandit because it hunts its pray?

It is survival of the fittest. And even if you want to call these people bandits, these people actually survived this apocalyptic sh*t, and they are not f*cking stupid. They actually know how to survive in this world, if they don't they will A. learn it in a very, very short time or B. simply die.

So they also know how to engage people, how to make them think they are friendly. If survival is hard, there won't be bandits or heroes. There will be just survivors and everyone of them will find their own way to survive in this world.

 

And even if you think there are bandits, the system which was implemented to dayz is exactly the oppisite of a freaking bandit system. It is creating bandits, nothing more. If I am a survivor who shot another survivor just because I want to survive then I get a bandit skin and from this moment I have no other choice but to shot everyone on sight. Why should I bother? People will kill me anyway because of my look, so I just have to kill them before they kill me.

Once you get a bandit skin, you actually tend to get a bandit. If you are playing alone, there is almost no chance to turn back. This is probably the most ironic system I ever heard of. A bandit system which wants to prevent players from becoming a bandit, but actually creates the bandits by making survivors to running talibans.

 

In a post apocalyptic world there is no good or evil, there is just survival.

Edited July 25, 2013 by Wayze

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

agreed, what about  a "meter" display showing further info on a character?

 

L

 

Same problems arise.   How is it displayed?  How visible is it under various lighting conditions?  Does it only show up when you put your sights on them?  A slight delay before it shows up would improve the sighted aspect.

 

Maybe a karmic aura or something more subtle?  Something that will only shows up brightly if someone has a vastly different humanity from the player.  Strength of color?/aura would depend on how much a difference there was between any two players.  The aura of a deathmatching mass noob murdering bandit would be easy for a pure hero to see (goes both ways) but only if the sights remain on a target for a given amount of time.  That might help prevent treeline spotting.  Perhaps sights wouldn't be needed to spot the aura at close range to prevent accidental shootings?

 

Just tossing out ideas.

 

edit:  I like wanted posters but only if we had to actually draw them in game with an mspaint type interface.

Edited July 25, 2013 by SausageKingofChicago

[wild_man 4442]

I prefer keep everything like mystery :thumbsup:

 

anyway you finding out too much soon if this guy good or bad for sure ;)

[Wayze 549]

edit:  I like wanted posters but only if we had to actually draw them in game with an mspaint type interface.

Cool, you are a hero I guess? Well, what are you going to do if I make your face to the new "cruel and merciless monster bandit"? Would be fun right?

 

Guys, screw these systems. You don't need this in DayZ. If you want to know who is bad and good go to the church and ask a priest.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

edit:  I like wanted posters but only if we had to actually draw them in game with an mspaint type interface.

Have some beans for that idea.  I guess the main problem with that is the fact that Cherno/Electro will be littered with pics of dicks, If there was some way of stopping that I'd be 100% with you.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Mr. Dickhead, the #1 bandit in all of Chernarus, sleeps on Green Mountain like a boss.

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

People would "dick" at first, but wouldnt that be an insta tell that the guy needs to be shot on sight?

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[Wayze 549]

Have some beans for that idea.  I guess the main problem with that is the fact that Cherno/Electro will be littered with pics of dicks, If there was some way of stopping that I'd be 100% with you.

Dude, the idea is ridicilous xD

1. How long would it take to make a good picture with a freaking mouse?

2. How complicated would it be to implement such a thing into the SA?

3. How should you know which guy was meant, if every 10th person looks the same anyway?

4. What would be the sense of such idea?

5. Everyone could make a picture from everyone, you will never tell if it is truly a bandit, or just some guy who got trolled?

6. Again, how should you know who is meant, if every 10th person looks the same anyway?

7. How stupid would these picture be, if 99% of the people on it would be dead by the time the pictures were made?

8. How do you want stop people from spam the world with paper?

9. Again, what f*cking sense does it make?

 

This idea is as ridicilous as the poop system. Sometimes I am really fascinated by the people in this forum.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Wayze

[terrvik 2409]

Is the heartbeat thing still in? Don't think I ever noticed it.

Anyway I think the change of default stance from combat ready to lowered weapon will be great for reading who is relaxed or who is ready to start a fight when you interact.

[Wayze 549]

Is the heartbeat thing still in? Don't think I ever noticed it.

Anyway I think the change of default stance from combat ready to lowered weapon will be great for reading who is relaxed or who is ready to start a fight when you interact.

If survival is really hard in DayZ SA, the people will learn that a lowered weapon can be your death. A bandit having the weapon combat ready is in a big adventage. So, I don't know if I will be relaxed...

[terrvik 2409]

I don't know, I use this in the mod all the time. Approach someone, say hello, lower my weapon and ask him to do the same. Switch the defaults and add rifle on your back and other things and it can be used more to read intentions.

[kander 80]

Briefly distilled. The 'problem' if there is one, is not a case of the game not being as good as real life at showing people others' intentions, but rather that others' intentions simply do not match what they would do in the real world, because the consequences are not the same.

 

Those who consider themselves as the 'tough guys' vs the 'bambis'/'care bears' etc , ported into the same situation would:

 

a.) shit themselves, same as everyone else

b.) run around like a bandit in game and last maybe a day. Because it would be stupidity. Such people would wipe themselves out in no time (natural selection), leaving the only true survivors as cautious players with a genuine survival strategy.

Edited July 26, 2013 by kander

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Hello there

 

People would "dick" at first, but wouldnt that be an insta tell that the guy needs to be shot on sight?

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

Only if there was a large difference in humanity.  Otherwise most people wouldn't even notice.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Dude, the idea is ridicilous xD

1. How long would it take to make a good picture with a freaking mouse?

2. How complicated would it be to implement such a thing into the SA?

3. How should you know which guy was meant, if every 10th person looks the same anyway?

4. What would be the sense of such idea?

5. Everyone could make a picture from everyone, you will never tell if it is truly a bandit, or just some guy who got trolled?

6. Again, how should you know who is meant, if every 10th person looks the same anyway?

7. How stupid would these picture be, if 99% of the people on it would be dead by the time the pictures were made?

8. How do you want stop people from spam the world with paper?

9. Again, what f*cking sense does it make?

 

This idea is as ridicilous as the poop system. Sometimes I am really fascinated by the people in this forum.

 

 

Fraggle knows I was being ridiculous with that mspaint suggestion.  

[wild_man 4442]

some guys need remember is game for fun, is true I shoot every guy with gun without think, this make best lulz for me :lol:

 

if some day is real life apocalypse shit happen, I don't go first to city to find some guys to kill :o

 

maybe i am kill one guy for practise to make prepare for kill for defend me and my girl if some guys make attack, but I don't kill for lulz :thumbsup:

 

in rl is too much different things with good or bad killer guys, is every race, man and womwn, old an young, is not possible to see one guy walking in street and say 'fuck, this guy is killer for sure, he wear some bandit mask' :huh:

[Wayze 549]

Fraggle knows I was being ridiculous with that mspaint suggestion.  

I doubt that.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

I doubt that.

 

I doubt that!

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

If we met, and you told me to drop my gun, I'd just laugh and say that ain't gonna happen.  Of course I'd communicate politely with you, but doubt I would trust you enough to team up.  After all, I'm a gentleman, and you introduced yourself rudely.  Depending on my mood I might point my gun at you.  You seem trigger happy enough to shoot me in "self-defense."

Then I'd say in direct, "na-na-na-na-na-na - you're gonna be a bandit!" about 3-5 times before I logged.

 

Man after my own heart! If you chose to split I would let you. The point still remains factual that if you denied communication and did threatening things, I would attack you to the very best of my ability. It doesn't make me a "bandit" or a "bad person." It makes me defensive and prepared. A critically thinking adult prepares for any possibility. That is all I'm doing by approaching other survivors defensively and communicating my real intentions. If I am being defensive in the interaction, how am I a bandit, exactly? My method actually works. I've used it successfully before - in both cases with violent men and non-violent ones. The violent ones typically died at my hand (though I admit not always, as nobody is perfect) and the non-violent ones either left, communicated with me in some way, or in a few circumstances, joined me. You act like I'm the one in charge of making the game. The standalone clearly doesn't have bandit skins, so we have to approach the situation pragmatically.

 

Besides, it seems to me that all you want is for the game to be "easier" for you. That way you don't have to interact with people, and you can just murder other players (i.e. bandits) with impunity. Let's examine your own words here.

 

"Why?

Because I can balance that with killing bandits to satisfy my kill hunger."

 

"It's really arrogant for any non-bandit player to entertain the notion that I would give them the time of day if bandit skins were removed.

Expect a bullet in the back or face."

 

So firstly, you prove yourself to be equally as savage in nature as any other player. You simply think of DayZ as a way to "satisfy your kill hunger." - so basically you are violent, offensive, selfish, and motivated by bloodlust - all qualities that I find remarkably similar to bandits (and all human beings, on some level. Let's be honest.)

 

Secondly, you admit you would play just as defensively, even offensively, if you had absolutely no idea of a person's humanity.

 

Since we know that the standalone won't have bandit skins, is it not wise to propose alternative - and more authentic - methods of deducing a person's prior actions? Doesn't it therefore make sense that we come up with ways to identify violent behaviors with subtle ques that you can use? Doesn't this actually put us in agreement? Nobody's saying you can't keep on killing bandits. What I am arguing for here is a deeper game experience. Humanity should become apparent with authentic visual and/or gameplay cues. You want to take that away from everyone.

 

"deep discussion about literature doesn't even work well with most chicks." This much I will grant is true. I still have only met one woman who I could have exceedingly esoteric conversations with; deep conversations base on a mutual understanding of literature, music, art. The meaning of life. She died, sadly. One small woman. Every ignorant, selfish girl I meet seems to pale in comparison.

 

P.s. I've never been betrayed by an 8 year old. I met one once, but he tried to shoot me and missed. It was his last mistake with that character, to be true.

Edited July 26, 2013 by SalamanderAnder

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

Is the heartbeat thing still in? Don't think I ever noticed it.

Anyway I think the change of default stance from combat ready to lowered weapon will be great for reading who is relaxed or who is ready to start a fight when you interact.

 

SUCH an excellent idea. You've stirred my own thoughts.

 

 

What if players with very high humanity, when looked at, maybe could cause the player aiming at them to lower their weapon into the "relaxed" stance - when inside a certain range, of course. Shouldn't work 100m away through a scope or anything.

 

And what if low humanity players did the inverse? Within a certain range, your character would remain neutral. If said target had an especially low humanity, your character might start to tremble *ever so slightly.* Your heart beats faintly. Your gun would not lower unless you pressed the bound key to lower your weapon repeatedly. Maybe, as you survived longer and developed more "experience,"

 

1: You're "guile" would increase or decrease. This means that your humanity transmission distance would be; reduced as a bandit (benefitting the bandit), and increased as a heroic player (benefiting the heroic).

2: You're "perception" would increase. Meaning your detection range would increase, regardless of being neg or pos of the humanity spectrum (Benefit to both).

3: Neutral players would still gain increased perception, but would gain transmission distance. This means that someone who stays neutral for a long time and suddenly looses a lot of humanity would still have a high transmission distance - like a first time murderer. (Crime and Punishment) Over time it would decrease, however. Inversely, if they gained humanity and became more heroic, they'd only have the effect of making people lower their gun - which is tactically advantageous, since heroic players could then observe a person and see if he raises his weapon again - a sign of possible aggression.

 

So when approaching someone who is - as we say "heroic-" players could not only observe the targets personal appearance, (which would be subject to the immediate conditions of his environment and his choices as a survivor) but they would also have a "sixth-sense" about the person. This is just a minor way of simulating what we might call human intuition. When someone is good, they generally have a very good presence about them, which relaxes others around them. We can actually observe this in human nature. People who seem trustworthy to us often have a calming effect on our body language.

 

Inversely, someone with very low humanity - bandit's as we know'em 'round 'ere - would make you're entire character's body language nervous and tense. What a solution. This way, you can't just look at someone through a sniper scope and immediately go "Oh yeah, bad guy" and blow his brains out without a second thought or consideration.

 

Also, if you happen to spend a lot of time (say, 15-30 minutes or more) around a particular individual, your character's status effects should no longer be affected by them. "Negative" status effects should also be negated by "positive humanity" actions, such as that individual giving you a gift, or healing you, ect. ect. Basically players status effects to other individuals can be dulled to the best case scenario. i.e. if it is a bandit, you would only be dulled to "neutral" around them. Maybe you're a bandit too, anyway. If he is heroic, he's already obtained the best case scenario reaction.

Edited July 26, 2013 by SalamanderAnder

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

some guys need remember is game for fun, is true I shoot every guy with gun without think, this make best lulz for me :lol:

 

CoD is that ----> way....

[Vicco 123]

 

 

P.s. I've never been betrayed by an 8 year old. I met one once, but he tried to shoot me and missed. It was his last mistake with that character, to be true.

Congratulations on that encounter with the 8-year old.  Looks like you took a -1200 humanity hit.  Murderer.

 

"Besides, it seems to me that all you want is for the game to be "easier" for you. That way you don't have to interact with people, and you can just murder other players (i.e. bandits) with impunity."

 

Do you really think my personal rule of killing only bandits is the "easier" way to play?  Runs counter to common sense, and all the numerous comments I've seen about what's "easier."  Here and elsewhere. 

 

Why do you say I don't interact with people?  I do, just not with bandits.  We're getting back to the fact that you're a mind-gamer, and I'm not.

You want to talk to bandits before they kill you, or you kill them.  I don't.   A bandit gets his skin from murdering people.  I haven't the slightest inclination to talk to murderers.  You may as well quit saying "we agree" on anything related to the humanity mechanic.  We don't.

And killing a bandit isn't "murder" as the game currently works.  So you need to get some facts straight. 

 

As far as me taking advantage of the game providing me free kills, in the form of bandits, don't expect me to shed tears of guilt. 

DayZ is already close enough to a pure shooter WITH the current humanity system.   

The ONLY game mechanic keeping it from pure shooter is the humanity system, because that's restrains some players, including me.

Besides the scenery and survival aspects, it's the main draw for me.  Sue me if I'm wrong to want to maintain that.

 

Also, I don't know where people come up their conviction that the stand-alone won't make murderers easily identified.

Either they're personal friends of Rocket or other developers, or full of wishful thinking.

 

Whatever.  If there's no easily identifiable humanity - from 200 meters too - I'll wait before playing, and just enjoy reading all the whining about KOS.  Might go in to do some KOS myself, might not.  You're welcome to try some mind-gaming with the very few players who will participate in that after KOS gains ascendance.  I'll cut to the chase and play KOS from the outset.

 

I would expect it to be pure KOS, or players clanning up, and dressing each other all pretty in tutus, ribbons and such.  

Winking, scowling/smiling, red eyes or anything else I've seen in this thread won't do to prevent me from KOS.

I could mention other visual "humanity" cues that could work.  A slight limp for murderers.  Jerky head movement to other players, etc., etc.

Then there are non-visual penalties.  Health penalties, barring high capacity backpacks, aiming penalties, etc., etc. 

 

But my god, the furor that would ensue.  Penalize murder!?

"But I want to murder with no penalty!  How else can I most efficiently KOS or mind-game murder?" 

Waaaa, waaaa, waaaa, sniffle, sniffle.  You're a baddie "carebear."  Waaaa, waaaa, waaaa, sniffle, sniffle. 

 

I always question the motives of those wanting no humanity system.  The simplest answer for me is that their real motive is to make murder easier.

That goes for so-called mind-gamers too, including you.  Your mind gaming doesn't pan out as you imagine it should, because inherent in mind-gaming is paranoia and an itchy finger-trigger.  You kill innocents, and suffer humanity loss.  You then justify murder with a "self-defense" plea.

You're at least honest enough to see the hypocrisy in your plea, and the easiest way to deal with it is to remove the humanity system.

God, that's so old in this game.  Lets make murder painless - for me.

 

I choose not to mind-game, and NEVER murder.  I play with no paranoia when I interact with other players.  You don't like playing like that.

You like the paranoid interaction aspect.   But want no penalty when your paranoia leads to murder. 

That's okay.  It's all good, and is what it is.

Won't bother me if the stand-alone is KOS, or Clan Barbie House.  I'll decide to play or not play.

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

Congratulations on that encounter with the 8-year old.  Looks like you took a -1200 humanity hit.  Murderer.

 

Ect, ect, followed by assumptions and slander.

 

Lol fuck that little bitch. He tried to murder me. I don't give a shit about my "humanity." His intention was obvious.

 

 

 

Dude, you seriously need to take a chill pill. I never said I "didn't want a humanity system."

 

In FACT, if you would have actually read my posts, you would see that all of my suggestions INSIST on the existence of a humanity tracker. I'm just suggesting authentic cues for it. "Also, I don't know where people come up their conviction that the stand-alone won't make murderers easily identified."

 

I don't know where you came up with that. All of my ideas have been to the detriment of this conclusion. Also, Rocket himself officially stated that the humanity system would NOT be in the Alpha release until they had perfected it more. I'll look for the video when I have time. It's also apparent by watching the SA videos that you're clothing is not dictated by humanity, since you can wear different shirts, pants, shoes, hats, ect. This is a fact. Please learn to read.

 

You want to snipe bandits from afar in a nice, cozy hiding spot; where you don't have to be in any danger. That's it. What I'm arguing is that in actuality, you can't just fucking look at a dude 300 meters away and automatically presume that he's a bad guy. Life just doesn't work that way. People wear the clothes they wear because they want to - or out of necessity. The current system gives you as a "bandit hunter" a completely unfair advantage. Furthermore, my propositions don't even suggest changing how the humanity system works. I'm only proposing solutions to a real problem.

 

"But I want to murder with no penalty!" I never said that.

 

"I choose not to mind-game, and NEVER murder." - "As far as me taking advantage of the game providing me free kills, in the form of bandits, don't expect me to shed tears of guilt. "

 

You murder bandits. Killing is murder. You murder them, without even talking to them. And you say that I'm a "bad person" for communicating with other players I encounter? Completely hypocritical. It also perfectly proves my point that a computer system can't actually judge the real-world context of a murder. But regardless, the point is not to remove the humanity system. Only to make it more intuitive.

 

"I would expect it to be pure KOS, or players clanning up, and dressing each other all pretty in tutus, ribbons and such. "

 

"Players clanning up" is actually the key phrase here. That's what we want. We want to encourage more player interaction. Clanning up and killing each other is far more interesting than simply killing each other individually over and OVER and OVER again. Uhg. It's fucking repetitive! I have no qualms about human strife, but I clearly have the recognition that it is in human nature to cooperate on SOME LEVEL.

 

I'm starting to seriously doubt your claims of being a "lit major." You're being quite childish and reactive with your posts, which indicate to me a childish intellect. If you would just stop making ad hominem attacks on my character and READ my content, MAYBE you'd be able to form some kind of rational contribution. Also, you can't not "mind-game." You're playing a game, which is done with your mind. The game is a mind-game. ALL GAMES ARE MIND-GAMES. That's why we call them "games." You can't just "choose not to." That's analogous to saying that you choose not to use your mind - which may be true - but is a very bold assertion indeed, what with all it implies.

 

And yeah, bandits should not be "handicapped" with health penalties, equipment restrictions, or aiming penalties. All of those ideas are terrible. You can't handicap players like that for murder. Nothing like that - even analogously - happens in real life. "Oh I killed three guys, now I can't carry an alice pack." That simply makes no fucking sense. Especially considering that Dean Hall himself confirmed that clothing and gear would take damage. So shooting a guy up actually might not be the best way to obtain his gear. Ever think of that, wise guy?

 

Look, I'm not going to argue with you anymore Vicco. You seem to just want something to attack. Just fucking calm down man. I don't call you names. All I've ever showed you is respect thus far, but you're seriously trying my patience. Go back to bed, mister. It's probably past your bed time. Let the big boys talk now.

Edited July 27, 2013 by SalamanderAnder

[s4pphire 45]

There is no need for ridiculous skins; address the problem at its source instead and create a challenge to survive to encourage teamwork.

 

'Check skin, if A, shoot; if B, reconsider' does not encourage players to think, or communicate for that matter. If forming groups and alliances would actually provide a benefit (it currently doesn't, in fact it slows you down and cuts your loot in half or less), then players would attempt to approach each other and figure out for themselves who can be trusted and who cannot, leading to significantly more diverse, dynamic and intriguing gameplay.

 

Oh, get rid of the dumb heartbeat mechanic too, it brings spoon-feeding to a new level.

[Jamz 253]

There is no need for ridiculous skins; address the problem at its source instead and create a challenge to survive to encourage teamwork.

 

 

In the SA everyone should look slightly different with the clothing system so players could gain reps on servers amoungst players. I think this would be effective and better than having skins, it would also force bandits to change clothing regularly so not to be identified.

 

I envisaged a map like Chernarus where the numbers and difficulty of the zombies increases the further inland you went and with the military targets furthest inland, players would only be able to get to them in groups. A river would bisect the map with the bridges being roadblocked to stop players from using vehicles to get to the inland parts too. Not sure how viable this would be in the mod but maybe something similar in the SA?