Why do peoples actions need to dictate their appearance?

[Vicco 123]

Everybody has their own opinion.  Here's mine.

I don't play this game to mind-game other players.  I'm non-hostile to survivors and heroes.

I will converse with them, and sometimes team up.  There's tension in that.

A survivor or hero can change colors at any time.  I'm putting myself in danger.

I won't even shoot in self-defense, because I value my "humanity."

Why?

Because I can balance that with killing bandits to satisfy my kill hunger.

I don't care about gear, except finding a Winchester to try to kill any bandit I see.

My score of bandit kills is the most important game aspect to me.

Because being a bandit is a conscious game choice, and contradicts my game choice.

 

There are only 3 types of people who oppose the bandit skin.

1.  Players who think other players are in DayZ to primarily play mind-games.

2.  Players who consciously and honestly choose to be bandits, or bandits who whine about how they became bandits "through no fault of their own," though the humanity mechanic is well known and easily understood.

3.  Players who only refrain from being a bandit because they don't want a bandit skin.  They would rather be allowed to murder with impunity.

 

I don't like those players.  Among them, only an "honest" bandit gets my respect, and is worth killing.  Currently I can avoid or kill them.

Take away the bandit skin, and I'll just kill everybody I see.

It's the only sane choice.

 

There will be no mind-gaming except kill strategy and kill tactics.  There will be no attempt at communication.

You are just a target.  That's my take.  No need for me to 'justify" it.  That's how I roll. 

Why would I mind-game somebody to "win" when I can just pull the trigger to "win."

I don't give a shit about mind-games, just "winning" within the terms I set. 

Much like an "honest" bandit in that regard.

 

I really think those opposing bandit skins are either naïve, or just want a kill fest of innocents. 

Deviousness is part of the game.  It goes by the wayside with no humanity mechanic.

And it doesn't work at all on this forum.

 

It's really arrogant for any non-bandit player to entertain the notion that I would give them the time of day if bandit skins were removed.

Expect a bullet in the back or face.

I'm not a sucker, and most players aren't either.

And that's MY opinion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bfisher 561]

It's not a perfect system, but it seems to work.  If you see a guy wearing a shemagh, ALICE pack and silenced M4, bandit or not, he clearly has seen and done some shit.  A ghillie suit and long rifle is clearly someone who wants to not be seen.  Hero skin or even cammo clothes is obviously also well traveled.  Standard bambi clothes with a Winchester or pistol, don't know what to make of him yet.

[Vicco 123]

I don't think that this problem can be solved well in the current mod. I'm just excited for the Standalone's clothing options. I'm pretty sure a person in a Ghilly, camo clothing, or kevlar vests is much more hostile than someone in a bright orange rain parka.

 

If bandits can't be readily identified, I'll shoot your ass if you're wearing a tutu and ballerina shoes, no questions asked.

Otherwise, I'll try to cop a gentlemanly feel.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Hello there

 

Its true one cannot judge a book by its cover, but it can often give indicators.

 

I suppose the Bandit skin reflects this as we cant see any other "tells" with the current avatars/resolution body stance etc etc.

 

Yes, the bandit/hero skins are kind of sledge hammer fixes but how else could we portray these things in game.

 

Whenever I encounter a "nutter" in real life, even if they are smartly dressed there are many many little signs which signal "danger" these cannot be displayed in the game as it stands. I'd like to see a better way to reflect a persons character in game but have no idea how it could be achieved.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

You hit on one of the best solutions, imo.   Things like body language and eye movement can tell us a lot about a person and their intentions.  The tone of voice and choice of words can definitely give away strong indicators but that's not something you're going to get to react on from a distance.  Eye movement is out as an option for obvious reasons, unless they want to add crazy eyes to the game, so that leaves us with body language.  You can get some of that in the mod now but not a lot.  

 

That really just means different animations for different levels of humanity but it would help.

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

oooooo interesting, different animations for different mind sets. I need to thunk about this.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

You hit on one of the best solutions, imo.   Things like body language and eye movement can tell us a lot about a person and their intentions.  The tone of voice and choice of words can definitely give away strong indicators but that's not something you're going to get to react on from a distance.  Eye movement is out as an option for obvious reasons, unless they want to add crazy eyes to the game, so that leaves us with body language.  You can get some of that in the mod now but not a lot.  

 

That really just means different animations for different levels of humanity but it would help.

I think you're onto something.  Players could have different stances based on their play-stlye.  For example, a hero that has turned to the dark side and started committing murders could look like this:

 

 

It's subtle but the observant players will know to stay away.

[Vicco 123]

I think you're onto something.  Players could have different stances based on their play-stlye.  For example, a hero that has turned to the dark side and started committing murders could look like this:

 

 

It's subtle but the observant players will know to stay away.

 

LOL. 

It is an interesting idea, but I don't think it's practical.  The main problem is by the time you get close enough to recognize the cues, you'll be shot dead.

Then you'll also have plenty of "I shot him because he nodded.  How was I to know that meant "Nyet?!" 

Or "That was nervous tic?!  I thought she was winking at me just before she killed me."

[kander 80]

The thing is this: In real life bandits don't get a new life once dead. In real life people don't all look the exact same. So in real life the bandits would get identifiable over time, there would be things like "wanted" posters and even if not you can judge people a LOT by how they look at other people/at things, how they talk, what they say, IN REAL LIFE. Not in a game.

To make up for all that some other mechanic of identifying bad persons was added, even if not "elegant".

 

 

 

Exactly this. IRL people wouldn't get involved in so many fights just for fun, because of the risks. There would therefore be fewer bandits and more co-operation, so there would be the ability to spread the message of "Watch out for this bandit who likes to hang out in this area. Looks like this, wears that and packs such-and-such a gun". I'm not sure about wanted posters because that, I think, is more reflective of a more ordered, stable society, but people's infamy would definitely spread. Likewise their renown for doing 'good' deeds. In this absence of this much customisation in-game, a bandit skin is probably the best solution for now. It shouldn't be possible to do whatever you want completely without consequence. Most 'bandits' are cowardly snipers anyway who don't generally give people a chance to even see them, so I don't know why they would be bothered.

Edited July 23, 2013 by kander

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

LOL. 

It is an interesting idea, but I don't think it's practical.  The main problem is by the time you get close enough to recognize the cues, you'll be shot dead.

Then you'll also have plenty of "I shot him because he nodded.  How was I to know that meant "Nyet?!" 

Or "That was nervous tic?!  I thought she was winking at me just before she killed me."

 

It doesn't need to be that subtle and the humanity level can be reflected in actions like the looting kneel, idle animations, or perhaps even how they hold their weapon.  Even a slightly different sprinting, crawling, and walking animations would help from a distance.  Perhaps the characters posture could send a clear message.  :)

Edited July 23, 2013 by SausageKingofChicago

[phL (DayZ) 63]

in my opinion part of the problem is that there is nothing to gain from a friendly behavior at all. in terms of a "rational playstyle". sure it can be fun but thats no reason to team up (in a z. apocalypse, for me).

 

and i don't mean the teamspeak teams, i talk about the random surviver you run into.

 

if you spot someone ingame there should always be that rational question what to do. not because i'm in a friendly mood or what. simply because of the advantage vs. risk you should have with meeting any other player.

 

 

 

imagine in the zombie movies there would sit some maniac on a hill sniping survivors in a large city for "fun". after some shots fired a massive horde of zombies would go after the noise.

it would be just stupid to do that if your goal is to survive.

 

in dayz it's possible because the settings of the sandbox allow it:

 

-many snipers, military weapons

-you can outrun zombies

-weapon sound radius is a joke (attracting zeds)

-zeds are mostly cosmetic entities

 

 

i think it is only a matter of "balancing" and the general sandbox settings. (which are currently very much in favor of the "COD players" ;-)

 

that is part of the reason why i liked 1.7.7. so much.

[Chris529 380]

I thought the wanted poster idea was okay, but who will be putting them up if you are dead? Dead men can't talk. There could be a skilled bandit stalking the lands, leaving no-one alive and you would never find out. To be frank, I think bandit skins are crap. It won't change in the mod but for the SA I hope there is a much more subtle way of determining if someone has been naughty. By that I mean bloody hands from searching corpses or leaving a machete in someone's skull; not a new set of clothes that cries "shoot me in the head or I'll kill you" you instantly acquire from shooting a few people.

 

I don't like to generalize anything, but when I imagine a generic "keep bandit skins in" post, I think of some gullible carebear, who has been taken advantage of too many times and demands help from the game to mark all the baddies. Usually these posts have some obscure reasoning to justify having skins, I'd say the most common one is "IRL you would be a complete nutter shaking and hallucinating if you killed someone" (by this logic PTSD is instantaneous and occurs in 100% of murders/killings). Some posts are just biased to shit, the tone of some reeks of "I hate bandits in general and will do whatever I can to put them at a disadvantage".

 

To those annoying carebears: I'm sorry you thought you made a buddy but he shot you when your back was turned, but it's time you hardened up and learnt from your mistakes instead of making everything suit you. Bandit skins are terrible (deal with it) but yes we will throw you a bone in SA with bloody hands (hopefully) and custom clothes. I guess people will dress how they play, by that I mean for example a well armed bandit might want to wear camo and webbing/tactical vests to help them in fights.

 

If people had more stuff to do together, more of a reason to be cooperative, then there wouldn't be as much banditry. That's why putting a skin on bandits doesn't work, people still distrust each other and now there is 1 group of people who will be shot at by everyone else. That doesn't fix the problem since there is still nothing more to do, it's just a desperate attempt to get people to stop killing.

[dgeesio 1034]

I don't agree with everyone's seemingly desperate need to make bandits identifiable. "Make them covered in blood if they PK!" "Bandits should get spiky armor and look evil!" "Why don't their eyes glow and shoot laser beams of griefing if they have ever killed another player" or "why can't the developers write the programming for DayZ to read every players mind magically so it will pop up on your screen if the person in front of you is going to be friendly or not!"

 

I've never been a bandit, but if I was I wouldn't be happy with the forced skin change, and as a hero I don't want to be able if the the person I'm coming up on is good or bad.

 

There shouldn't be any way to tell...

 

If you disagree with me I am trying to understand your viewpoint...

 

 

 

 

there is no point in making bandits standout. if i was killing people in real life im hardly going to wear a snow suit am i . i understand its a game and it kinda helps new players but tbh noone should standout at all regardless of there game choices.

Edited July 23, 2013 by dgeesio

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

 

There are only 3 types of people who oppose the bandit skin.

1.  Players who think other players are in DayZ to primarily play mind-games.

2.  Players who consciously and honestly choose to be bandits, or bandits who whine about how they became bandits "through no fault of their own," though the humanity mechanic is well known and easily understood.

3.  Players who only refrain from being a bandit because they don't want a bandit skin.  They would rather be allowed to murder with impunity.

 

I don't like those players.  Among them, only an "honest" bandit gets my respect, and is worth killing.  Currently I can avoid or kill them.

Take away the bandit skin, and I'll just kill everybody I see.

It's the only sane choice.

 

There will be no mind-gaming except kill strategy and kill tactics.  There will be no attempt at communication.

You are just a target.  That's my take.  No need for me to 'justify" it.  That's how I roll. 

Why would I mind-game somebody to "win" when I can just pull the trigger to "win."

I don't give a shit about mind-games, just "winning" within the terms I set. 

Much like an "honest" bandit in that regard.

 

I really think those opposing bandit skins are either naïve, or just want a kill fest of innocents. 

Deviousness is part of the game.  It goes by the wayside with no humanity mechanic.

And it doesn't work at all on this forum.

 

I don't appreciate your over-generalization of "people who oppose bandit skins."

 

"Kill a fest of "innocents?" lol. You act like death in a video game is real - and more objectionably, that there are any innocents in DayZ. We all kill other players from time to time. It's just a fact of life in this game. Nobody is "innocent." We're all just pathetic, squirming pieces of yeast, consuming each other to survive.

 

I am a friendly player. I oppose bandit skins - with the knowledge that the standalone has customizable gear. You can't just take away one player's ability to change their clothes and let other players keep it - therefore the developers must come up with more elegant and cause-effect related signs that you might be dealing with a dangerous person.

 

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/142489-a-light-dissertation-on-morality-in-dayz/

 

You create a false dilemma by assuming that the game can somehow judge your intentions. Even friendly survivors are often times forced to defend themselves. If they kill someone out of fear or self defence, and automatically receive a bandit skin, then the game is actually choosing the role that you play, not you.

 

You're entire argument hinges on the assumption that bandit skins are assigned accurately 100% of the time. A computer system cannot accurately analyze situational context - therefore bandit skin "false positives" are possible - which makes the bandit skin a self-fulfilling prophecy. It would be more organic and natural to let people choose their own clothing as they find it, allow them to make the decisions they want to make, and have authentic effects based on those decisions - i.e. looting a body that is still bleeding would leave residual blood on your hands for a while. Taking damaged, bloody gear from a shot up corpse. Your face over many kills would slowly form into a frown. As you age your beard would grow - which visually indicates the survival time of a player. All of these subtleties are what form an authentic experience.

 

The way I see it, bandit skins are placeholders. You people act like DayZ is already in it's final version. The gameplay is going to be drastically changed with the changes coming in the standalone. We have to look at the bandit skin as something to be replaced with other pathways.

 

And consider this. Would you rather see a guy in a bandit mask and immediately engage him in a gunfight - or would you rather have to atually interact with all players on the same terms - with no exact knowledge of their past? That opens the door for many different options. An instantaneous gunfight could actually evolve into a new friendship - or a cunning attempt at betrayal. But personally, I'd rather be interacted with and then betrayed than just shot on sight because of this reasoning:

 

"I have a bandit skin, therefore if he sees me, he will shoot me. Therefore, I will shoot first, so I don't die."

 

This is the practical case by case dilemma that you have to deal with. Why can't we just have an intelligent discussion about it without jumping to conclusions about the "morality" of other players? Isn't the whole point of DayZ to build tension by adding ambiguity and suspicion to player interaction? If you know someone's history or intentions right off the bat, then it is not ambiguous. It just boils down to "heroes vs. bandits" - not the unique, individual experience of DayZ.

Edited July 23, 2013 by SalamanderAnder

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

 

If bandits can't be readily identified, I'll shoot your ass if you're wearing a tutu and ballerina shoes, no questions asked.

Otherwise, I'll try to cop a gentlemanly feel.

 

Why not just come up with a way to force a player into a non-violent interaction? If you were any good, you could get the drop on strangers and use your voice and tactical superiority to command the other person to drop their weapon. If they don't, then kill them; if they do, interact with them. That's my system. The difference between a friendly player and a non-friendly is almost always communication. A friendly player will want to communicate with you, and will generally comply, whereas someone with ulterior motives probably won't. Intentions discovered, interaction controlled. That's how I roll with every stranger, regardless of their skin.

[Vicco 123]

Why not just come up with a way to force a player into a non-violent interaction? If you were any good, you could get the drop on strangers and use your voice and tactical superiority to command the other person to drop their weapon. If they don't, then kill them; if they do, interact with them. That's my system. The difference between a friendly player and a non-friendly is almost always communication. A friendly player will want to communicate with you, and will generally comply, whereas someone with ulterior motives probably won't. Intentions discovered, interaction controlled. That's how I roll with every stranger, regardless of their skin.

 

We won't agree, because we see differently.  I don't kill based on "suspicion."  I don't kill in "self-defense."  I only kill bandits.  Always.

I control my actions all by my little old self.  NOBODY controls my kill/no-kill actions except ME.  I roll with the humanity game mechanic.

I also control THAT.  I am the one who decides to be or not to be a bandit.  The humanity mechanic works just fine from what I've seen.

If it didn't, I would just 100% deathmatch.

 

As it is I'm willing to interact with non-bandits.  There is tension in that.  I can be killed, because anybody can turn bandit AT ANY TIME.  I won't defend myself other than running away.  It's up to them to earn the -1200 humanity for killing me.  It's their choice to make, just as I have made mine.

The humanity rules are clear.

 

You commented about me "generalizing" in another post.  I was very specific about your type of player.  Mind-gamer.

"Why not just come up with a way to force a player into a non-violent interaction?"

You can try that all you want.  Your choice.

It won't work with me, because I don't play that game.  I've said this elsewhere.  NOBODY can mind game me.  I'm a very simple person.  This "kidnaping," and "robbery" is also rubbish to me.  Won't happen with me, but others can work that out among themselves.  Their choice. 

 

You'll have to kill me or allow me to run away.  Those are the choices I'll offer you.

If you want to interact with me in game, civility will work easily.  Not force.

I am perfectly willing to risk interaction with non-bandits, and risk "death."  My choice, and the other player's choice to kill me or not.

We both pay a "penalty" for our choice. 

With no bandit skins in game, and no "penalties," I won't communicate with anybody except team mates.  It will be pure KOS for me.

And for most others I suspect.

I just don't play mind games, and no mind game you can devise will change that.

So just dream on about stranger "interaction" in a game world where anything goes because no penalties are imposed for murder.  You'll get none of that from me.

[bonesnap 75]

 

There shouldn't be any way to tell...

It's okay, there isn't anyways.

 

Having been shot at on sight by Hero skinned players when I was not a bandit, I always follow the simple yet sweet rule: DTA.

Edited July 23, 2013 by bonesnap

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

posting excellence

 

You've got to remember how bad the interactions were back when the bandit skins were re-implemented.  It may have been the popularity or just the random hackers but nearly every interaction with another player outside of a third party social network (TS, Skype, etc) resulted in betrayal or KoS.  This is why some guy suggested a completely random server join where you never knew who anyone was as there was no scoreboard, nametags, player list, server name, or even number of total players.  I agree with that wholeheartedly, even if it's just some hardcore option.  (downside: this makes donating to servers hard.. perhaps donations would need to be pooled)

 

The bandit head was a quick and cheap fix for the mod, definitely.  Which is why some of us are kicking around ideas in general discussion rather than the suggestions sub-section.  Let's brainstorm some solutions.

 

While the different animations makes sense to me, it still offers some troubling effects.  For instance, it will eventually become just as bad as the bandit head when enough players learn how to I.D. the change.  Only an evolution of animations, a.k.a, deeper down the rabbit hole, will keep us on our toes as development continues.  I hope they're successful enough to try this.

 

Still, while some arguments for bandit/hero skins suck... there is still the human instinct argument that tells us of someone's intentions.  Everything from eye movement, eye dilation, posture, tone of voice, and involuntary muscle movements will set off the lizard brain in each of us to warn of potential danger.  This is extremely hard, perhaps near impossible, to simulate in a game at this time and date.  Perhaps 20 years from now with straight up V.R... but in a game like this, we need something.  Humans are not blank automatons like the current mod avatars, we're barely evolved apes with lots of tells.   Some of us are capable of reading and knowing what these tells are while the majority of us just react to them without being able to explain why.  Adding something to the game that hints at this is definitely better than a red arrow (bandit head) that suggests danger but something must be there, especially to be authentic.  Key word:  hint.

 

Successfully capturing or an clever representation of this would be a coup in gaming design.

[broguenz 333]

Agree.

 

What I feel we lack though is the ability to recognise someone we have met before regardless of whether that encounter was good bad.  
With the mod we all can look the same, with nameplates off and the ability to change our name on the fly if they're on,  it makes it difficult to tell friendly fred from bandiit bob even though we've ran into both players in our lifetime/s

I know in theory each spawn is a new life therefore new memory but bollocks, we know where we are, that we died, where we died etc
I was wonder how 'feature rich' our player journals will be in the SA and if they could include a list of people we have met with added notes about that person.
We could then read the journals of others and find out about people they have interacted with in the past.
 

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

We won't agree, because we see differently.  I don't kill based on "suspicion."  I don't kill in "self-defense."  I only kill bandits.  Always.

I control my actions all by my little old self.  NOBODY controls my kill/no-kill actions except ME.  I roll with the humanity game mechanic.

I also control THAT.  I am the one who decides to be or not to be a bandit.  The humanity mechanic works just fine from what I've seen.

If it didn't, I would just 100% deathmatch.

 

As it is I'm willing to interact with non-bandits.  There is tension in that.  I can be killed, because anybody can turn bandit AT ANY TIME.  I won't defend myself other than running away.  It's up to them to earn the -1200 humanity for killing me.  It's their choice to make, just as I have made mine.

The humanity rules are clear.

 

You commented about me "generalizing" in another post.  I was very specific about your type of player.  Mind-gamer.

"Why not just come up with a way to force a player into a non-violent interaction?"

You can try that all you want.  Your choice.

It won't work with me, because I don't play that game.  I've said this elsewhere.  NOBODY can mind game me.  I'm a very simple person.  This "kidnaping," and "robbery" is also rubbish to me.  Won't happen with me, but others can work that out among themselves.  Their choice. 

 

You'll have to kill me or allow me to run away.  Those are the choices I'll offer you.

If you want to interact with me in game, civility will work easily.  Not force.

I am perfectly willing to risk interaction with non-bandits, and risk "death."  My choice, and the other player's choice to kill me or not.

We both pay a "penalty" for our choice. 

With no bandit skins in game, and no "penalties," I won't communicate with anybody except team mates.  It will be pure KOS for me.

And for most others I suspect.

I just don't play mind games, and no mind game you can devise will change that.

So just dream on about stranger "interaction" in a game world where anything goes because no penalties are imposed for murder.  You'll get none of that from me.

 

"NOBODY controls my kill/no-kill actions except ME."

 

"Intentions discovered, interaction controlled. That's how I roll with every stranger, regardless of their skin."

 

That's what I just said. I control the interaction by communicating with other players. I do this out of "self-defense."

 

You're arguing with me when actually, we are in agreement. The thing is that DayZ is a purely materialistic reality with zero consequences for your actions against other people, really. I beg of you to read "The Sea Wolf." It's such a good book - and I think it can be enlightening on the situation in DayZ. In a purely materialistic world, with no laws; one that actually tends to reward brutality in some cases - morality has very few benefits. That's exactly what DayZ IS - a purely materialistic world with no laws, no real consequences and tends to reward brutality. To deny this would be complete blindness to the factual situation. So those who learn to exercise brutality typically last longer than those who do not. That's just nature, man. That is the natural world. Human beings know this innately because we are actually just advanced primates. Our instinct knows that in the natural world, brutality is rewarded. We kill other animals for gain, do we not? We wantonly slaughter cattle for human consumption, so that the strong may gain upon the consumption of the weak. This is the fundamental root of all evil. We are but yeast, consuming the weaker so the stronger can survive. Materialistic, manipulative, instinctive animals. The only difference is that we have language and reasoning. One can rationalize excessive brutality just as easily as he can rationalize excessive passiveness.

 

Say we met, in Dayz. IF I ordered you to drop your gun, what would you do? Would you engage me vocally with communication? If you simply kill me for telling you to put your gun down, then you are just as evil as anyone else. If you, for instance, used direct chat and refused, then I might actually talk to you. Maybe we could form a cooperative relationship based on mutual respect. But it remains no less factual that communication makes the difference between a friendly player, and an unfriendly player. If you refuse to communicate, and act suspicious - I.E. Aiming your gun at me, taking offensive tactical positions, ect. ect., then I will engage you ruthlessly - and I might die, but you will probably perish, as I do not take many chances. I would rather kill the uncooperative man, and spare the cooperative one. It is the sign of a man's true intentions. I judge people by their immediate reaction to the situation. Granted - I'm not always right. For often I am the one who ends up being betrayed. I am a loyal companion as they come - assuming you are cooperative and communicative.

 

However, some of the issues in the general shoot on sight modus operandi CAN be addressed by further development of the game. Let's not forget that the build you and I play is a MOD. Not even a budgeted, standalone release. A fucking MOD, SIR! Simply addressing the low value of human life in terms of gameplay value can alter the fundamental activity of the player base. People adapt to the environment, even YOU.

Edited July 25, 2013 by SalamanderAnder

[Michaelvoodoo25 3120]

I think bandits should be dressed as pink fairies.

On a serious note OP, you're right, but as mentioned when the bandit skin was removed the "shit my pants" meter went up drastically!

I personally like the SA system, wear what you want, buy we all know bandits will want to dress up as sneaky as possible.

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

Emoticons developed from the lack of emotiveness in the written word (for those of us who are not writers and poets)

 

Could they be used in some form? Or some other "shorthand" graphic that could appear somewhere to inform one how a person looks and acts? Even a meter giving a vague text descriptor of the person's demeanor depending on recent actions?

 

Let's make our millions.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

You've got to remember how bad the interactions were back when the bandit skins were re-implemented.  It may have been the popularity or just the random hackers but nearly every interaction with another player outside of a third party social network (TS, Skype, etc) resulted in betrayal or KoS.  This is why some guy suggested a completely random server join where you never knew who anyone was as there was no scoreboard, nametags, player list, server name, or even number of total players.  I agree with that wholeheartedly, even if it's just some hardcore option.  (downside: this makes donating to servers hard.. perhaps donations would need to be pooled)

 

The bandit head was a quick and cheap fix for the mod, definitely.  Which is why some of us are kicking around ideas in general discussion rather than the suggestions sub-section.  Let's brainstorm some solutions.

 

While the different animations makes sense to me, it still offers some troubling effects.  For instance, it will eventually become just as bad as the bandit head when enough players learn how to I.D. the change.  Only an evolution of animations, a.k.a, deeper down the rabbit hole, will keep us on our toes as development continues.  I hope they're successful enough to try this.

 

Still, while some arguments for bandit/hero skins suck... there is still the human instinct argument that tells us of someone's intentions.  Everything from eye movement, eye dilation, posture, tone of voice, and involuntary muscle movements will set off the lizard brain in each of us to warn of potential danger.  This is extremely hard, perhaps near impossible, to simulate in a game at this time and date.  Perhaps 20 years from now with straight up V.R... but in a game like this, we need something.  Humans are not blank automatons like the current mod avatars, we're barely evolved apes with lots of tells.   Some of us are capable of reading and knowing what these tells are while the majority of us just react to them without being able to explain why.  Adding something to the game that hints at this is definitely better than a red arrow (bandit head) that suggests danger but something must be there, especially to be authentic.  Key word:  hint.

 

Successfully capturing or an clever representation of this would be a coup in gaming design.

 

I think carrying helicopter rotors and car engines in your backpack is absolutely ludicrous. Why don't we have to transport such items in a more authentic way, i.e. having to carry it in your arms and not be able to tote a gun - or run at full sprint - for that matter? Also, the ability to build player constructions, like walls and barriers, but only after gathering sufficient materials like wood, scrap metal, and other construction materials - however, large constructions could only be placed by multiple players, simultaneously. If you and two other people literally must cooperate to construct a barrier, which is actually pretty authentic, *cough* Dean Hall please pay attention *cough* then the value of human life increases inexplicably. And consider this - You could force people at gunpoint to do your bidding. a.k.a slavery - and need we look but only two centuries ago to see a blatant example of that in actual human history. So you see, human evil can still affect all human goals.

 

Furthermore on the gameplay- Group spawning, I feel, is absolutely necessary. Just being able to send someone else in the spawn lobby an invite to spawn at the same location, maybe even form parties, would be dramatically helpful. Players could start together, against a dangerous world, which literally requires them to cooperate to accomplish certain tasks. The productive and cooperative will always prevail. If a man must carry a car tire in his two bare hands, straining against it with all his will, to repair a vehicle, then surely he will need the aid of another man. Therefore, only cooperative, productive groups (maybe a few very lucky, or skilled, lone individuals) would be able to harness the power of a broken down vehicle. This is the kind of authentic activity that our human brain needs in order to rationalize cooperation.

 

Also I agree about the hints subject. We need more subtle, cause-effect related evidence to allow our human minds to draw conclusions, rather than blatant turban you can see through a sniper scope.

Edited July 25, 2013 by SalamanderAnder

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Hello there

 

Emoticons developed from the lack of emotiveness in the written word (for those of us who are not writers and poets)

 

Could they be used in some form? Or some other "shorthand" graphic that could appear somewhere to inform one how a person looks and acts? Even a meter giving a vague text descriptor of the person's demeanor depending on recent actions?

 

Let's make our millions.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

It might serve but where would it go?  If it appears next to a player when you put your sights on him it would end being used to spot players the way nameplates/tags do.  If it was off to the side of the screen or something it would take your eyes off the prize, so to speak.  Then you have the issue of various lighting conditions, you wouldn't want a baby blue emoticon following you around, announcing your location to everyone at night.  :)

 

Something more subtle would work better imo.

[Vicco 123]

 

"Intentions discovered, interaction controlled. That's how I roll with every stranger, regardless of their skin."

 

That's what I just said. I control the interaction by communicating with other players. I do this out of "self-defense."

 

You're arguing with me when actually, we are in agreement.

 

Say we met, in Dayz. IF I ordered you to drop your gun, what would you do? Would you engage me vocally with communication? If you simply kill me for telling you to put your gun down, then you are just as evil as anyone else. If you, for instance, used direct chat and refused, then I might actually talk to you. Maybe we could form a cooperative relationship based on mutual respect.

 

Just addressing the above.  I've read nearly all of Jack London, Conrad, Dostoevsky, et al.  I was a lit major.  It all informs my life, but is very minor in how I approach DayZ.  

Because it's a game with its own mechanics, and about the only way I'd connect it to literature is to say too many Kurtz wannabes infest it.

 

Beyond rounding my own character, deep discussion about literature doesn't even work well with most chicks.  Just one, but even that could have been my deep blue eyes. 

No reward at all going there with DayZ, for me anyway.  I do applaud you making whatever analogy you might make, as commendable.  My mind is no longer so active in that regard, so I only envy yours.

 

To me, DayZ has only one connection to real life.  The humanity system is the only thing that comes close.  In other games it's called karma.

I always play for good karma, and try for the same in real life.  I don't care what others want to do in a game.

 

I don't do "self-defense."  I make absolutely no attempt to control another non-bandit player's actions, beyond being polite.  Interaction with me is natural, no mind-gaming.  It's entirely their game choice to kill me, and become a bandit or not.  I'm not a gear gatherer, so have nothing to lose.

Gathering up a Winchester or Lee is easy enough in this game.  That's all you need to go bandit hunting.

 

We don't agree.  I like having the bandit skin in the game.  Apparently you don't.

It gives me "bad guys" to avoid and to hunt.  I kill them on sight when I can.

It allows me to put some minimal trust in non-bandits, allowing for player interaction.

I can facilitate "self-defense" survivors becoming bandits, without even pointing a gun at them.

 

For some strange - to me - reason, you don't want "bad guys"  (AKA serial murderers) identified outright.  What I gather is you want to talk to everybody you encounter, and somehow figure out which guys are "bad guys," and exercise control over them.

"Intentions discovered, interaction controlled"

I'm sure the "bad guys" will love that, and every one who can modulate his voice for 1 minute and refrain from laughing will shoot your ass. 

Even the 8-year-olds.

Then they'll move on - unmarked - to the next sucker who buys their line.  Because to them, that's having fun "interaction" in a video game.

 

If we met, and you told me to drop my gun, I'd just laugh and say that ain't gonna happen.  Of course I'd communicate politely with you, but doubt I would trust you enough to team up.  After all, I'm a gentleman, and you introduced yourself rudely.  Depending on my mood I might point my gun at you.  You seem trigger happy enough to shoot me in "self-defense."

Then I'd say in direct, "na-na-na-na-na-na - you're gonna be a bandit!" about 3-5 times before I logged.

 

Without bandit skins it's an entirely different game for me.  Talk to no one.  Kill anything that moves.

No bandits to kill, no bandits to make.  In terms of stranger players, there's only the hunt.

 

As I said, we see differently.  And that's fine.  I have no desire to lord it over or kill non-bandits.  No need for player interaction, though I sometimes enjoy it enough.

I won't fire on a survivor or hero in "self-defense." 

No big deal getting killed.  I always respawn.  Every single time.

I just wanna kill bandits, that's all.  You want to take them away from me.

It'll be interesting to see how this all washes out in the stand-alone. 

The only way I see it working without bandit skins is as a death match or clan wars type game. 

Sure won't be anything like DayZ.

[ZomboWTF 527]

There was a time where the Bandit Skin was removed, and the majority of people didn't like it at all

 

The thing is that, in this game, everyone looks the god-damn same from 10 meters away, and you can't tell if the person is the one who killed you on sight 10 minutes ago or if he is just a guy looking for loot, and without revealing yourself there is no other way to identify someone other than a completely different skin.

In real life, you can identify a person from about 20-40 meters away, even if you only see their back, the Bandit and Hero skins are there to make the game a little more than endless random encounters which all get you killed over and over until you just kill people for no reason at all

 

In the standalone, you ca find a lot of clothing, which makes a person look very different from other persons, and by seeing their color scheme/the sort of clothes they have, there is a factor making them identifiable for you