Weapon damage general discussion.

[gibonez 3633]

Let's examine this:

The standard sniping load for the M24 is a 175-grain Sierra MatchKing at 2,580 fps.

Seems impressive, but at 800 meters, the round would only be going 1,300 fps!

So now that's a 175 grain bullet at 1,300 fps, which would only have 657 ft-lbs of energy. Compare that to a 5.56mm from an M16 at 200 meters, which would have 715 ft-lbs of energy.

That's the reason sniper rifles lose power at long range, in some cases significantly.

Edit: still, even at that range, it would be like being shot with a very powerful handgun at point blank range.

Perhaps they can handle weapon damage in a slightly unrealistic way to have a more satisfying experience.

How would you guys feel about Sniper Rifles doing low damage close range and high damage at long range ?

At 0-200 yards the m24 doing 2000k blood damage to the chest, at 600 m 8k blood, at 600+ 8k blood + instant knock out ?

This will encourage proper long range sniper use and would reward those who have the skill for long range shots.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

Perhaps they can handle weapon damage in a slightly unrealistic way to have a more satisfying experience.

How would you guys feel about Sniper Rifles doing low damage close range and high damage at long range ?

At 0-200 yards the m24 doing 2000k blood damage to the chest, at 600 m 8k blood, at 600+ 8k blood + instant knock out ?

This will encourage proper long range sniper use and would reward those who have the skill for long range shots.

That isn't authentic. The is a gamey thing to do for balance. DayZ isn't about balance. It is about authenticity. I hope the authenticity extends to weapons and realistic damage.

[gibonez 3633]

That isn't authentic. The is a gamey thing to do for balance. DayZ isn't about balance. It is about authenticity. I hope the authenticity extends to weapons and realistic damage.

Getting shot 12 times and bleeding for 2 minutes then finally just bandaging isn't authentic either.

[Draco122 412]

In terms of pistols in DayZ the bullet damage while weak seems to do the exact same damage regardless of distance with the correct adjustments to account for bullet drop and spread. It also sometimes doesn't take additional factors such as the clothes or equipment a person is wearing or the ammunition quality the weapon is firing.

I've heard the Makarov's 9x18mm PM round (the original 9x18 Mak) has similar performance to a .380 ACP. From what I've seen, hearded, read and so on so forth, most pistol rounds are effective at 10-20 yards at most (9-18 metres) but loose significant energy over range.

Now while I agree for the purpose of authenticity that damage should be as a realistic as possible, I believe the developers are largely going for balanced over realism. However, I believe they are pushing it as close as possible to the realism mark.

IN MY OPINION damage should be based on a minimum and maximum damage at range with weapon groups such as pistols, shotguns and sub-machine guns having this effect most of all, while Rifles and Machine guns suffer very little in damage loss at long range.

Smaller factors can be applied alterting these effects negatively or postively with such things as ammo quality, weapon used, clothing/equipment such as body armor, fully-loaded backpacks (with food, gear and/orweapons) or equipment on the person (such as a pistol round striking a weapons magazine) on the person and distance the target is located.

[-Gews- 7443]

How would you guys feel about Sniper Rifles doing low damage close range and high damage at long range ?

No way! Sniper rifles do less damage at long range, so in game, they do less damage at long range. That idea seems like something you'd implement in a game like Team Fortress 2.

From what I've seen, hearded, read and so on so forth, most pistol rounds are effective at 10-20 yards at most (9-18 metres) but loose significant energy over range.

Mmmm, depends, that 7.62mm sniper load I was talking about loses 15% of its energy in the first 100 meters! Is it going to be 15% less effective at 100 meters? Probably not, but it's still a loss.

Looking at Federal ballistics tables, their .45 load is going 845 ft/s at the muzzle but drops to 786 ft/s at a range of 300 feet. Are you actually going to notice the difference between a bullet going 845 ft/s and one going 786 ft/s? I doubt it. An exception would be if you are firing hollowpoints and the velocity loss causes them to not expand as much, or not expand at all.

In general, the higher the initial velocity the faster it will lose velocity, and once it starts slowing down, it starts losing the remaining velocity at a lot slower rate.

[big_t 66]

The damage needs to be sorted out first rather then the capacity.

This indeed,, 3 shots point blank to the chest with 9.22mm pistol,,, I ain't even mad bro,, I'll just bandage this up and away we go......

[m.w. vindicator 880]

Getting shot 12 times and bleeding for 2 minutes then finally just bandaging isn't authentic either.

Right. That is why I suggest that all guns do more damage. I want the Makarov to be realistic so that I can have an authentic zeds apocalypse experience. If I found a Dragunov SVD and shot someone at 100m, I would expect them to die or be gravely wounded. If I shot someone at 800m with the same weapon, I would expect them to be really badly hurt, if not killed.

Having a weapon do more damage at distance is realistic and would aid an authentic experience. That is about as authentic as the 9mm problem.

Do you see what I am saying? Your solution would only worsen the lack of authenticity in the area of firearms.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

In terms of pistols in DayZ the bullet damage while weak seems to do the exact same damage regardless of distance with the correct adjustments to account for bullet drop and spread. It also sometimes doesn't take additional factors such as the clothes or equipment a person is wearing or the ammunition quality the weapon is firing.

I've heard the Makarov's 9x18mm PM round (the original 9x18 Mak) has similar performance to a .380 ACP. From what I've seen, hearded, read and so on so forth, most pistol rounds are effective at 10-20 yards at most (9-18 metres) but loose significant energy over range.

Now while I agree for the purpose of authenticity that damage should be as a realistic as possible, I believe the developers are largely going for balanced over realism. However, I believe they are pushing it as close as possible to the realism mark.

IN MY OPINION damage should be based on a minimum and maximum damage at range with weapon groups such as pistols, shotguns and sub-machine guns having this effect most of all, while Rifles and Machine guns suffer very little in damage loss at long range.

Smaller factors can be applied alterting these effects negatively or postively with such things as ammo quality, weapon used, clothing/equipment such as body armor, fully-loaded backpacks (with food, gear and/orweapons) or equipment on the person (such as a pistol round striking a weapons magazine) on the person and distance the target is located.

You bring up good points that I hadn't thought of. I personally think that realism/authenticity trumps balance in DayZ. I like how fresh spawns are at the mercy of people with weapons.

I do hope ammunition types and quality are factored into the weapon mechanics, with some time. With the new "entity" system, it seems like the devs can play around with quality rather easily. They are implementing this system for guns it sounds like.

I am not a gun expert. I posted some videos that illustrate the effectiveness of 9x18 JHP, 9x18 FMJ, and 9x18 HP on ballistic gelatin. I strongly advise you watch those. Note that the bullets do pretty good damage, especially the JHP rounds.

I noticed that Rocket was saying how shooting some in the head would damage their NV goggles or hat. It would be awesome if your backpack would reduce gun damage. While large rounds would rip right through the backpack, smaller pistols rounds my loose a lot of energy and therefore lethality. That level of detail would be a dream come true. Needless to say, I am excited to hear Rocket ideas on guns in SA.

[gibonez 3633]

Right. That is why I suggest that all guns do more damage. I want the Makarov to be realistic so that I can have an authentic zeds apocalypse experience. If I found a Dragunov SVD and shot someone at 100m, I would expect them to die or be gravely wounded. If I shot someone at 800m with the same weapon, I would expect them to be really badly hurt, if not killed.

Having a weapon do more damage at distance is realistic and would aid an authentic experience. That is about as authentic as the 9mm problem.

Do you see what I am saying? Your solution would only worsen the lack of authenticity in the area of firearms.

I completely get you.

It is unrealistic I only proposed it as a means to retain that high damage of a sniper rifle if balance was the main concern.

Hopefully they just make it so pistol ammo looses damage faster at range and Rifle ammo depending on the barrel length retains far more damage at long range.

A system of damage based on energy at point of impact instead of velocity would be ideal.

What do you think of a system where at 500m or more sniper rifle shots automatically knock you out ?

This could be explained by your body just receiving such a blunt impact of a bullet before the sound of the bullet can reach you giving you no time to brace for it . No adrenaline to counter it.

What do you think of this idea ?

[OfficerRaymond 2064]

Lee Enfields' have also not been in service since 1957, but it is also there. Think vintage man, vintage.

[colekern 1364]

Hey guys, I'm changing this thread to "damage general discussion" since that's what it is now.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

I completely get you.

It is unrealistic I only proposed it as a means to retain that high damage of a sniper rifle if balance was the main concern.

Hopefully they just make it so pistol ammo looses damage faster at range and Rifle ammo depending on the barrel length retains far more damage at long range.

A system of damage based on energy at point of impact instead of velocity would be ideal.

What do you think of a system where at 500m or more sniper rifle shots automatically knock you out ?

This could be explained by your body just receiving such a blunt impact of a bullet before the sound of the bullet can reach you giving you no time to brace for it . No adrenaline to counter it.

What do you think of this idea ?

An automatic knock would probably be realistic. Even if it was for just a short amount of time. Look at ACE. They do a good job with passing out.

[thesodesa 99]

The bottom line is. any weapon can be an instant killer, depending on where the shot lands on the body, and even in the case of a Makarov bullet a chest wound is lethal. With the new damage model that comes in the standalone these things should be addressable. It could be made so that with certain protective clothing and vests you only acquire bruises or fractures, but not actual skin penetration if hit with some of the slightly weaker weapons.

I think the Mythbusters did an episode on this subject at one point. I might go look it up on youtube and post a link here.

Links:

http://www.gunsandcr...g/lethalty.html

Here's a link to one video. It's about ballistics gel, but at on point (roughly at 2:05) you can see an arrow being fired into the stuff. Just look at how far a puny arrow sinks into flesh when there are no bones present to slow it down.

Another video about gun vs melee. I put it here because it was mentioned somewhere in this thread.

Another video about arrow penetration. Notice how even with the hard rubber ball the arrow is forced into the chest cavity. I'm assuming

that the target is made of either styrox (roughly equivalent to human flesh) or wood (harder than a human ribcage).

A very relevant video on makarov bullet penetration. After watching this are you still telling me a makarov couldn't bust your ass in one go?

Edited February 26, 2013 by TheSodesa

[radivmoe 47]

Where I live you have to be 18 you own a long arm and 21 to own a pistol. If I bought a pistol, It would be a Makarov.

Makarovs are cheap, don't break easily, cheap ammo, easy to use and clean. Great starter pistol.

technically it was my father's gun, but i fired it!

[m.w. vindicator 880]

Hey guys, I'm changing this thread to "damage general discussion" since that's what it is now.

Cool. this is what I wanted.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

The bottom line is. any weapon can be an instant killer, depending on where the shot lands on the body, and even in the case of a Makarov bullet a chest wound is lethal. With the new damage model that comes in the standalone these things should be addressable. It could be made so that with certain protective clothing and vests you only acquire bruises or fractures, but not actual skin penetration if hit with some of the slightly weaker weapons.

I think the Mythbusters did an episode on this subject at one point. I might go look it up on youtube and post a link here.

Links:

http://www.gunsandcr...g/lethalty.html

Here's a link to one video. It's about ballistics gel, but at on point (roughly at 2:05) you can see an arrow being fired into the stuff. Just look at how far a puny arrow sinks into flesh when there are no bones present to slow it down.

Another video about gun vs melee. I put it here because it was mentioned somewhere in this thread.

Another video about arrow penetration. Notice how even with the hard rubber ball the arrow is forced into the chest cavity. I'm assuming

that the target is made of either styrox (roughly equivalent to human flesh) or wood (harder than a human ribcage).

A very relevant video on makarov bullet penetration. After watching this are you still telling me a makarov couldn't bust your ass in one go?

Great! This is more proof for what I already believe. Did you see the vids I posted about the Makarov on page 2? or 3?

[-Gews- 7443]

Testing out the Makarov in ACE is interesting. I fired 8 shots into a Russian soldier from point-blank range and he got down and started firing wildly at me, killing me.

But then I tried the same thing on a Takistani militiaman and the Makarov killed or knocked him out in one shot two times in a row (he had no ballistic vest).