1st/3rd Person Perspective, Immersion and Awareness.

[landfish 62]

I believe we're all beating a dead horse here. In the end, it all comes down to the same conclusion that almost every other threads about 3rd person end up with. There's always someone out there who gets the most votes when he say that the majority enjoys 3rd person so keep it, but the worst part is, people in this thread are actually whining about keeping the 3rd person in the mod with the SA and that just made me facepalmed myself a hundred times. If you are fine with peeking over walls and having an incredibly easy experience then I don't think DayZ is a game for you. Its all up to Rocket anyways, I'm against keeping 3rd person unchanged in the SA but what the hell, this is just a reply from nobody and I wouldn't waste anymore time discussing about the feature that doesn't really have any good argument for it the be kept in the SA.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

I believe we're all beating a dead horse here. In the end, it all comes down to the same conclusion that almost every other threads about 3rd person end up with. There's always someone out there who gets the most votes when he say that the majority enjoys 3rd person so keep it, but the worst part is, people in this thread are actually whining about keeping the 3rd person in the mod with the SA and that just made me facepalmed myself a hundred times. If you are fine with peeking over walls and having an incredibly easy experience then I don't think DayZ is a game for you. Its all up to Rocket anyways, I'm against keeping 3rd person unchanged in the SA but what the hell, this is just a reply from nobody and I wouldn't waste anymore time discussing about the feature that doesn't really have any good argument for it the be kept in the SA.

Well yes it does always come to the same conclusion and its different from your opinion; it that generally everyone is divided on the matter. But then again this thread was never about whether 3rd/1st person should stay or go; it was about making changes to the existing game concept, so that 1st person is a more viable option and 3rd person can be a useful tool without being the be all and end all on how to play.

Thanks for supporting me.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Rpatto92

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

Latest topic: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/124785-help-build-an-immune-system-system/

[FlashHawk4 44]

If you ask me (a third-person player who generally only goes 1st-person for shooting and if an item is being obnoxious to pick up), the immersion is killed more by the fact that I can see my desk and wall in the periphery of my vision around my computer screen, not that I'm looking at the back of my character.

The only time third person has ever truly killed immersion for me wasn't a video game, it was a movie about a video game. The movie Gamer (absolutely terrible, one of the few movies I have ever actually stopped watching from sheer disgust, don't watch it). Anyway, the "video game" was controlling other actual human beings, and that was somehow in third person mode...like they all had a tiny little camera drone flying behind their heads at all times or something, but they never explained it.

Anyway, tangent over. I don't think third person really kills immersion, I still find myself totally engrossed in the world of the game even when I'm playing in third person and talking in TeamSpeak. I do agree about the "looking over walls" argument, but I genuinely can't think of a solution to it that wouldn't be weird and totally off-putting, like blacking out the parts of the screen your character's eyeball-seeing-radius isn't covering. I feel like that would make me physically nauseous.

Edited February 20, 2013 by FlashHawk4

[Heiduk 265]

There is certainly an issue: in the mod there does seam to be a sense that 1st person isn't a viable option in game and or supported by servers owners

This is what has always puzzled me. Even if you just look at YouTube videos 3rd person is far far less common in ARMA videos than it is in DayZ videos. Some of the most well respected mil-sim groups such as ShackTac flat out consider 3rd person cheating. So why is 3rd person so popular in DayZ, a mod where arguably 90% of the action is PvP combat? Before someone mentions heros, bandits, or PvE, I'm writing this as someone who rarely logs in to a third person server and has never fired on another player in DayZ who hasn't fired on me first.

If I had to guess it is for two reasons. First that's how the streamers who made it popular play. Second, it is popular for the same reason 1 hit kill sniper rifles are popular. It allows a solo player to ambush another player with little risk to themselves. The advantage of these tactics are obvious, whether or not they make for a good game is another question.

As much as I hate third person I have to agree with the critics of this and the other compromise proposals I've read. All of the suggested mechanics for limiting LOS, or only allowing third person in certain situations seem like they would be difficult to implement well, clunky in practice, and would likely fail to address the underlying problem.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

This is what has always puzzled me. Even if you just look at YouTube videos 3rd person is far far less common in ARMA videos than it is in DayZ videos. Some of the most well respected mil-sim groups such as ShackTac flat out consider 3rd person cheating. So why is 3rd person so popular in DayZ, a mod where arguably 90% of the action is PvP combat? Before someone mentions heros, bandits, or PvE, I'm writing this as someone who rarely logs in to a third person server and has never fired on another player in DayZ who hasn't fired on me first.

If I had to guess it is for two reasons. First that's how the streamers who made it popular play. Second, it is popular for the same reason 1 hit kill sniper rifles are popular. It allows a solo player to ambush another player with little risk to themselves. The advantage of these tactics are obvious, whether or not they make for a good game is another question.

As much as I hate third person I have to agree with the critics of this and the other compromise proposals I've read. All of the suggested mechanics for limiting LOS, or only allowing third person in certain situations seem like they would be difficult to implement well, clunky in practice, and would likely fail to address the underlying problem.

Largely agree; you did a good job of summarizing peoples opinions.

Though I have to say, the suggestions in my original post are not technically challenging in anyway, nor do I believe them to be clunky. The first half, my personal recommendations; aren't required and with the exception of features like: the FOV slider, free look and a maximum FOV, all are present in DayZ standalone, which would allow the second feature to work independently.

Ok so we don't expect these features from all modern games but the point is; they aren't exactly making any technical leaps we might consider ground breaking. The 50% that is comprised of my proposed features; essentially breaks down to a simple control scheme. We already see these features present in other games combined with a keyboard toggle/mouse combination cross over.

I'll even break down the individual mechanics:

Tech requirements first: simple

• You need the ability to adjust the FOV in game via the mouse scroll wheel (this is a feature in use five or ten years ago on old Elder scrolls games)
  
• Free look (already exists in the Arma II engine and the updated DayZ standalone engine)
  
• You need the in game FOV button and free look button to be bound together on the same key "Alt" (getting really complicated now!?)
  

Control side: so forward thinking; it was being used in RTS games since the year 2000

• Hold Alt to turn head (difficult)
  
• Hold Alt + move scroll wheel to adjust FOV (two buttons; getting complex)
  
• Scroll to the maximum FOV to transition perspectives (so complicated only the pro Skyrim players can set their FOV on the fly)
  
• Letting go of Alt returns the player to the default perspective (look; no hands)
  

Just poking a little fun; to demonstrate the elegance of this solution. This suggestion allow you to do more things with the existing controls scheme than is present in Arma II; whilst drawing you back to first person to engage with all the in-game interactions upon releasing free look.

[Max Planck 7174]

Rpatto, I don't understand what you are trying to achieve here.

With your changes the status, as far as I see it, will be this:

3rd person players

*Have to hold ALT down all the time to play the way they like

*When spotting someone from their rooftop hidey-hole, they only have to let go of ALT to shoot them

1st person players

*No changes, will still get spotted and shot by magical invisible super people who wants to 'pump their stats'

If you want to create a mechanism that will allow 1st and 3rd person players to coexist on the same servers, you need to deal with the most important issue:

3rd person players have a tactical advantage, and their eyes-in-the-back-of-the-head-wizard-shit ruins the immersion for 1st person players.

I too would like to see a 'single server configuration' solution, but not under those conditions.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Max Planck

[terrvik 2409]

Let's just all agree that it's a matter of perspective. (hiyooooo!)

By the way, I always played Arma (and OFP as well for that matter in first person, always figured the third person was just a tacky bonus. It's only now with all the heated discussions going on that I realized that people prefer third. That is genuinely baffling to me. Back in the days (you know, the spam-enter-to-join-time) I could only ever find first person servers and no-one complained. No points in this post, just thought of it just now. :)

[dallas 5195]

If you prefer 3rd person only; then you have nothing to add of value, same goes to people who only like 1st person and want see 3rd person removed. This is a thread discussing how a better balance could be struck between the two perspectives; if you're not interested in discussing a compromise between them, leave. You've been aloud to cheer-lead your preferred perspective; you've discussed its benefits, there is nothing more you could possibly say to convey your appreciation of either perspective (in your case 3rd) so stop repeating yourself, go voice your opinion, vote on a poll, support your cause in the appropriate place.

I don't. I play on 3rd person servers, where you're able to switch easily between both views, just as you've always been able to.

And as I already said, I don't feel I need your permission to post my opinion in this thread.

I also said that I think the solution is to improve 1st person, rather than breaking third person. Maybe they'll add or improve some first person animations, like ArmA 3 seems to do. While we can all easily agree that third person can be an immersion breaker sometimes, so is first person. While some of ArmA's animations are a little rough around the edges, when you are all zoomed in in first person, these rough edges are very visible and can even be a little unintuitive. My point is that while everyone is focused on third person being the problem, I think if first person received some much needed love and attention, if would definitely help players chose the latter's servers.

That's not the problem...most server hosts don't even know that they can change settings or even know how to set them up and accept them as they come from the provider.

And if you don't want to be in the disadvantage you will have adapt to the same level in order to not be in the disadvantage all the time. What 3P players don't seem to see is that even if they use 3P in a fight they will also be in a disadvantage when someone sneaks upon them from the side using 3P to look along the walls. You can see clearly what's in front of you but a lot don't watch their flanks enough and wonder why that could happen...

All third person players accept that third person can be used against them.

What gets you killed is being predictable, static, you know an easy target.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Dallas

[colekern 1364]

Thanks for taking the time to read, I know there's a lot of rubbish but I needed to get it out of the way; over-wise people would bring it up and i'd be forced to back track.

If you have any contributions to add; maybe some improvements to the core idea, then feel free to leave them.

I like it, but... that ray cast suggestion is really good. I'm not sure which one is better.

[Hetstaine 10852]

Meh. Had a heap of multiquotes on the go but we are more than likely in skimming territory now anyway.

3dp- Pros- 472% easier than 1st

cons- 472% easier than first

disclaimer, those percentages may be lower than actual

The big hoo ha that everyone makes (yes..hoo ha) about 1st not being intuitive enough or i cannot see enough peripheral or its not like real life (said in whiny little voice that one) means..'i cannot see everything in the massive 3d god like mode that makes this game so much easier'. 3rd is only one step away from having a marker on everyones char.

Why do most not play 1st only servers ? Because 3rd is 472% easier. Flame away. How is seeing everything you cannot see immersive in any way. Playing in third gives a much higher degree of holy fuck moments and you have to be a lot more careful, you have to actually think about how to approach an area or a player, not watch everything from the safety of god view and then react accordingly in the safe bubble of eye in the sky view.

I have played both , 1st mainly and for immersive moments it pisses on 3dp. In bucket loads. Is it so hard to snap view look to your left and right or use the freelook option ? No..it is not, and those views gives you a full range of view except things you can not and should not be able to see.

The way so much of the for 3dp debate goes is that ' oooo but i have to poke my body around a corner to see someone' well poke your head around and risk it you fairy.' i don't get as much peripheral as i do in real life, let me just snap to 3rd and see everything everywhere like in real life...' use your snap views or freelook . It takes literally no time at all to be aware of everything around you when staying 1st.

I do not understand how so many people think they are so very limited in the 1st view in this game.

If 3rd was not so exploitable then this topic would not keep coming up, as it stands it is just simple mode and a highly pvp based part of the game that takes away a lot from the dayz experience. When i have played in 3rd dayz loses a whole shit ton of it's dayzeeness and become lazyness, but i do like it for the screenshots where i can include my char , thats it.

I would like to know how many people have actually put in enough good sessions of 1st and actually come to the conclusion that they choose 3rd because it is easier..not more immersive or some other twaddle. Play the game how you want really but a lot of the reasons constantly stated for having to use third slide like shit down an sbend.

rant out..please continue.

oh yeh OP ..not too bad :) I hope they do come up with a way to retain both and find a happy medium.

The best idea i have seen for keeping third as a non exploit type view is to have the camera locked as close as possible to the char so you can only see what is directly around you, say a circle of three feet and no possibility to move the camera to look over objects higher than the player. I imagine most would still not like this though as it would render the whole 3dp virtually useless anyway.

[enforcer1975 1111]

Well said...having the cam moved close to your head is nothing more than having 1P with a block in front of you that reduces your frontal fov...

btw. i have edited my settings according to a post here in the forum and guess what, i think i have an even bigger advantage now because i get to use a wider fov with those settings and turn my head too. There is really no complaining about a reduced fov because with the suggested settings you also see a big part of the side windows when sitting in a car which means a more natural fov even if it has a kind of fish eye effect on the outter edge. Even 3P can't give you more fov than 1P because the screen only has that much pixels, and i won't stop repeating it...

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

I don't. I play on 3rd person servers, where you're able to switch easily between both views, just as you've always been able to.

And as I already said, I don't feel I need your permission to post my opinion in this thread.

I also said that I think the solution is to improve 1st person, rather than breaking third person. Maybe they'll add or improve some first person animations, like ArmA 3 seems to do. While we can all easily agree that third person can be an immersion breaker sometimes, so is first person. While some of ArmA's animations are a little rough around the edges, when you are all zoomed in in first person, these rough edges are very visible and can even be a little unintuitive. My point is that while everyone is focused on third person being the problem, I think if first person received some much needed love and attention, if would definitely help players chose the latter's servers.

All third person players accept that third person can be used against them.

No you most certainly do not need my permission to post in this thread but if all your doing is to shanghai the topic then that basically amounts to trolling. Though it does seam this time, on the other hand you have at-least raised something worth talking about.

To answer what you said about improving 1st person: if you look at the last dev vlog, you can see the team has been making significant changes to animation transitions and it does seam that improving 1st person is a priority.

I am not focused on 3rd person being a problem because its not; the problem of balancing two perspectives does however cause issues.

You eluded to me breaking 3rd person, which isn't my intention; if I wanted to do that I'd ask for it to be removed. The changes I proposed would improve many aspects of the game; being able to dynamically change your FOV in-game would benefit both perspectives. What I intend to do is changes the default perspective to 1st person; so that when you interact with the game you do so from a more immersive perspective. So instead of aiming then being pulled back out behind the character; you can use 3rd person to gain a higher perspective literally and then be brought back into the immersion. You'd still be able to run around; turning your head from 3rd person to see what's behind you. As I said in the original post this feature balances the the two perspectives turning them into tools to be used tactically; using 3rd person to gain increased awareness and 1st person to loot or engage in combat. This is something you'll need to do more so now than ever; now that they have removed cross heirs altogether.

What gets you killed is being predictable, static, you know an easy target.

What gets me killed most: are bugs, hackers and making mistakes usually whilst climbing mountains. If you know what you're doing regardless of perspective you can be successful; 3rd person just makes things easier.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

Rpatto, I don't understand what you are trying to achieve here.

With your changes the status, as far as I see it, will be this:

3rd person players

*Have to hold ALT down all the time to play the way they like

*When spotting someone from their rooftop hidey-hole, they only have to let go of ALT to shoot them

1st person players

*No changes, will still get spotted and shot by magical invisible super people who wants to 'pump their stats'

If you want to create a mechanism that will allow 1st and 3rd person players to coexist on the same servers, you need to deal with the most important issue:

3rd person players have a tactical advantage, and their eyes-in-the-back-of-the-head-wizard-shit ruins the immersion for 1st person players.

I too would like to see a 'single server configuration' solution, but not under those conditions.

This does deal with that issues: first of all as in arma you can double tap pretty much anything to stay in 3rd person but as its tired to "Alt" which also allows you to free look. Essentially you wouldn't be able to turn from 3rd person and you'd either need to be static to fully utilize it potential or be moving in a relatively straight line; obviously you'd still have directional control via WASD but to use camera control you use 1st person.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

Well said...having the cam moved close to your head is nothing more than having 1P with a block in front of you that reduces your frontal fov...

btw. i have edited my settings according to a post here in the forum and guess what, i think i have an even bigger advantage now because i get to use a wider fov with those settings and turn my head too. There is really no complaining about a reduced fov because with the suggested settings you also see a big part of the side windows when sitting in a car which means a more natural fov even if it has a kind of fish eye effect on the outter edge. Even 3P can't give you more fov than 1P because the screen only has that much pixels, and i won't stop repeating it...

Well technically; if you tired 3rd person to "Alt" which is also free look, you lock the camera view whilst in 3rd person. So its still useful; you just end up playing more of the game from 1st person.

[Max Planck 7174]

This does deal with that issues: first of all as in arma you can double tap pretty much anything to stay in 3rd person but as its tired to "Alt" which also allows you to free look. Essentially you wouldn't be able to turn from 3rd person and you'd either need to be static to fully utilize it potential or be moving in a relatively straight line; obviously you'd still have directional control via WASD but to use camera control you use 1st person.

It does not deal with the issue, it will just annoy those who like 3rd person without dealing with the 'invisible-camper' problem.

If you want to create a mechanism that will allow 1st and 3rd person players to coexist on the same servers, you need to deal with the most important issue:

3rd person players have a tactical advantage, and their eyes-in-the-back-of-the-head-wizard-shit ruins the immersion for 1st person players.

I too would like to see a 'single server configuration' solution, but not under those conditions.

[enforcer1975 1111]

Well technically; if you tired 3rd person to "Alt" which is also free look, you lock the camera view whilst in 3rd person. So its still useful; you just end up playing more of the game from 1st person.

There is still the problem with the invisible camper like Max posted above..there is nothing more annoying than beeing sneaked upon by a guy aou can't see even if you keep your head rotating 360° because he watches you in safety behind a corner and waits until you show him your back and bam...you are dead without him risking beeing seen when having to peek around the corner to see what you are doing because he already did that from the safety or the 3P camera...It doesn't matter if you are 3P or not because as his target you won't see him either way. And blocking out pixels is no solution because it can be hacked. Removing the possibilty to exploit as with the crosshairs beeing removed is one solution. Your solution can still be a safe location 3P peeking around the corner exploit.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

I still think, if folks are using 3dp to be more aware of their own character then obfuscation, or non-rendering, of entities that would be out of their avatar's field of view is a perfectly sensible solution.

The Alt+Scroll controls are an interesting idea.

blocking out pixels is no solution because it can be hacked.

Ammo counts, hunger, blood-levels all are potentially hackable. By your logic, they shouldn't release the game at all.

DayZ should be built with the intention of creating good gameplay first and foremost. Basing decisions purely on an "unhackable" end-product would cause it to suffer neglect in other areas.

[enforcer1975 1111]

Some things can't be changed but most things that can be changed to provide an even playground should be, don't you think? The only hope one can have is the anti cheat program beeing able to detect them.