1st/3rd Person Perspective, Immersion and Awareness.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

No offense OP, but your suggestion is a waste because it's an attempt at a solution to a problem that doesn't actually exist. Third person view as it currently exists in DayZ is not a flaw in the gameplay that players need to somehow be weened off of. It's a perfectly acceptable way to play the game that a huge number of players find to be very enjoyable. It's not cheesy or cheating or somehow less real. The problem with your post is that from the very beginning you make the statement that first person is somehow more immersive than third person as if it's a fact. The truth though, is that for a lot of players, first person is actually LESS immersive than third person. The reason being that in first person you lose all spatial awareness of your character's body, your peripheral vision is far more restricted, and your ability to keep track of what's at your character's feet and how his body is positioned in relation to adjacent objects becomes MUCH more difficult. For a lot of players, those negatives towards immersion more than offset the gains that first person provides, and for those players, adding punishments or inducements that try to encourage or force them into first person view leads to LESS immersive gameplay, which is something that should be avoided.

As for other suggestions in this thread, such as keeping certain objects hidden in third person view, those are just poor ideas, too. It's hugely immersion breaking if a player can see a part of the world and that area looks clear, but then suddenly another player or zombie just pops into existence. The only reasonable restriction on third person that has been presented in any thread is having the camera pull in on your character if your up against a wall or other such obstacle, however such a feature would only be acceptable if it was extremely fluid and bug free, but ultimately it's still a waste of programming time when there's so many other useful, game-enhancing features that could be added instead.

I mean, let's be real, the only time another player's choice of first person vs. third person affects you or impacts your gameplay is sometimes during PvP, and frankly this game has WAY too much PvP as it is already. Ideally the game will focus much more heavily on encouraging players to cooperate against PvE threats while expanding the humanity system to punish random ganking and panic KOS behavior. If you take PvP out of the equation, then the whole first person vs. third person debate becomes moot, unless you're obsessed with the fact that some players are enjoying the game in other ways than you are, or if you're convinced that they just don't know what's actually more fun, and that if you force them to play your way, they'll eventually thank you for it.

I think you and some others have completely missed out on what the meaning of immersion is; immersion is almost the polar opposite of seeing more of the world, when its more about feeling apart of it. An as we don't have eye suspended above our heads; 1st person id closer to the reality those being more immersible. 3rd person doesn't surround you in immersion; it opens your perspective up makes you more aware.

Definition of immersive

(of a computer display or system) Generating a three-dimensional image that appears to surround the user.

[GenTroy (DayZ) 22]

I have always preferred 1st person except in ARMA II. It is the only game I have ever used 3rd person in. My vision in 1st person is way too restricted, feels like tunnel vision. I am hoping that they increase the FOV in the SA as that would bring me back to 1st person, which I would prefer.

[Max Planck 7174]

I have always preferred 1st person except in ARMA II. It is the only game I have ever used 3rd person in. My vision in 1st person is way too restricted, feels like tunnel vision. I am hoping that they increase the FOV in the SA as that would bring me back to 1st person, which I would prefer.

The SA has a FOV slider, you're in luck.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

The same way third person players accepts the flaws of third person, first person players also need to acknowledge the limitations of their preferred view setting.

Operation Flashpoint, ArmA, Real Virtuality or DayZ for that matter was never intended as a pure first person shooter. Third person whether you like it or not, is a legit and integrated part of the gameplay and editable difficulty settings is a part of BI's philosophy of creating a open and flexible platform for user-content. BattleEye does not globally ban you for using third person on third person servers. It's actually acceptable to use third person on third person servers and people playing on third person servers, accept the pros and cons of third person, just like people preferring first person, accepts the pros and corns of first person.

I understand that DayZ isn't synonymous with ArmA, but though out DayZ's existence third person servers have been a very popular feature of the game. Third person was not added by Rocket to appeal to COD players or to increase DayZ's popularity, third person was simply a core part of the engine and thus naturally became a part of DayZ too.

DayZ or ArmA is not designed as a pure first person shooter and therefor first person view isn't mandatory, when you play DayZ or ArmA. Also because of BI's design decision, where the playable unit is more a vehicle, an actual entity, a body, rather than the traditional floating camera, first person view is not without flaws. Looking over your shoulder often clips through your body, changing stances and trying to fit your body behind cover is often unintuitive and the disconnect between head as a player camera and your remaining body, often leads you to expose body parts, which easily can cause your death. Climbing ladders in first person isn't the most beautiful part of ArmA's player animations, I'm not staying Donkey Kong had better ladder climbing animations, I'm just saying they were smoother and more aesthetical.

I'd rather see the carrot than the stick.

Instead of attempting to dismantle third person view, I'd rather see some emphasis placed developing first person view. Maybe the standalone can benefit from some of the love character animations, such as reloading is receiving in ArmA 3. Maybe more people would embrace the immersiveness of first person, if first person was a more pleasant and smooth experience. I'm not arguing for COD floating camaras, just a bit more attention to ironing out the kinks. Maybe if first person servers saw increased activity, first person players would find less cause to join third person servers and become less occupied with our preferred way of playing DayZ.

Maybe the sollution isn't to break third person, but to fix first person.

First of all this is an entirely new game; there's no pretenses about what it should be, as is the title of one of Rockets post "Whatever you say it is, it isn’t" The only changes you can expect are based on the opinions of the designer and as Rocket has said a few times; he doesn't want to get rid of 3rd person, (though he would if he felt it necessary) He can however see the benefit of 3rd person but 1st person is still the primary focus. The ideas I have put forward are in my opinion on track with what Rocket wants to see come of DayZ.

I have stated my opinion in this post; I have a bias towards keeping both perspectives but I would like to see more emphasis placed on 1st person. So I would expect nothing less from others; than them to push forward their own agenda but this is a place for people who feel its in the interests of the game to discuss new concepts outside of the existing structure. So unless you have some constructive criticism or intend to build on something wrote in this thread then go to a place that wants to campaign against change and support them. There are people from both sides of the table leaving their likes and want here; those completely for removing 3rd person and those completely against even changing it and the only fair honest opinion out of anyone I've seen, are from people who don't have an aversion to either or.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

ANOTHER FUCKING 3rd v.s 1st POST! jeeze...

Just keep the half of the official servers on veteran, and the other half one expert... problem solve.

Hence the begging.

If you had read my post; you'd have realised this isn't another debate on whether it should go or stay its an actual suggestion on how to change the mechanics of the game to suit DayZ into standalone.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

I have always preferred 1st person except in ARMA II. It is the only game I have ever used 3rd person in. My vision in 1st person is way too restricted, feels like tunnel vision. I am hoping that they increase the FOV in the SA as that would bring me back to 1st person, which I would prefer.

Yes Standalone is supposed to have an FOV slider but I'd much rather see you being able to change it on the move without having to enter the in-game menu; over-wise there's almost no point in having one because everyone will just use the maximum FOV all the time anyway.

[dallas 5195]

So unless you have some constructive criticism or intend to build on something wrote in this thread then go to a place that wants to campaign against change and support them. There are people from both sides of the table leaving their likes and want here; those completely for removing 3rd person and those completely against even changing it and the only fair honest opinion out of anyone I've seen, are from people who don't have an aversion to either or.

I partly agree with you, as I suggested they improve on the first person experience, rather than breaking the third person experience.

Yes this is your topic and no I don't not need your permission to post in it.

[Positronica 30]

I think you and some others have completely missed out on what the meaning of immersion is; immersion is almost the polar opposite of seeing more of the world, when its more about feeling apart of it. An as we don't have eye suspended above our heads; 1st person id closer to the reality those being more immersible. 3rd person doesn't surround you in immersion; it opens your perspective up makes you more aware.

Definition of immersive

(of a computer display or system) Generating a three-dimensional image that appears to surround the user.

No, we know what immersion means. As far as games are concerned, the best definition would be "absorbing involvement"... or perhaps a better way would be to say that a game is more immersive if a player has a better sense of being in the game as opposed to outside it.

As far as awareness of the world goes, a game is more immersive if the amount of awareness you're given more closely approximates the level of awareness you would have in real life. Giving a player too much awareness, or too little, can both detract from immersion, and it's merely an opinion, and not fact that first person view gives a more accurate level of awareness. In real life, I am aware of where my arms, legs, and the rest of my body are in relation to what I'm seeing. I'm also easily aware of objects and obstacles adjacent to me due to peripheral vision, quick eye movements, and stimulus feedback to my arms and legs. Third person view approximates that level of awareness in ways that first person simply can't, and for a lot of people, that makes third person view a more absorbing involvement in the game world. Granted, third person also gives you additional awareness that you wouldn't have in real life, however for many people, this slight increase in awareness is less detrimental to their feeling of immersion than the loss of awareness caused by being forced into first person view.

[Max Planck 7174]

As far as awareness of the world goes, a game is more immersive if the amount of awareness you're given more closely approximates the level of awareness you would have in real life. Giving a player too much awareness, or too little, can both detract from immersion, and it's merely an opinion, and not fact that first person view gives a more accurate level of awareness. In real life, I am aware of where my arms, legs, and the rest of my body are in relation to what I'm seeing. I'm also easily aware of objects and obstacles adjacent to me due to peripheral vision, quick eye movements, and stimulus feedback to my arms and legs. Third person view approximates that level of awareness in ways that first person simply can't, and for a lot of people, that makes third person view a more absorbing involvement in the game world. Granted, third person also gives you additional awareness that you wouldn't have in real life, however for many people, this slight increase in awareness is less detrimental to their feeling of immersion than the loss of awareness caused by being forced into first person view.

What if you had all that, and also this:

Its far more simple than that. Keep choice of first/third person as it is, with one change. Ray cast third person view to first person view for zeds and players. So you would see all landscape/map features in third person (walls/trees/objects, the edge of the deer stand, or dock, the junk car etc...) You would not however see any zeds, or players if you could not see them in first person.

Would that be acceptable?

As far as immersion goes, I think the suspension of disbelief is an important part of it.

When someone I can't see can watch me through a solid wall, said disbelief is no longer suspended. It is plummeting.

[dallas 5195]

^^Which also happens to be one of the many reasons, why it's implemented by BI.

[attorney1977 311]

So how would TrackIR work with this? No need for ALT-Scroll, just move your head forward.

[enforcer1975 1111]

Even before TrackIR i was full aware of where my limbs were, actually you don't really have to be that aware because you can't trip anyways. And if you want to look if you have a hard on just use free look for a second. With TrackIR my behaviour didn't really change other than i don't use an extra finger for looking around since i'm using my own head to scan for threats. Actually looking around you with or without gadgets is more immersive than using 3P since at least i don't get a feel of my body unless i am "inside". Quite the same as driiving, If i had to use a camera that's attached behind my car IRL i would run into everything, even in game i can maneuver better when in the car and even inside an armored vehicle. Needing help when maneuvering a vehicle where you have blind spots adds to the realism of it and of course having blind spots in vehicles is only natural.

The explanation about having a feel for your body from BIS when in 3P is pathetic imo because you don't need the feeling when you can actually see it and you never develop the feeling of immersion that way.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Enforcer

[Positronica 30]

What if you had all that, and also this:

Would that be acceptable?

As far as immersion goes, I think the suspension of disbelief is an important part of it.

When someone I can't see can watch me through a solid wall, said disbelief is no longer suspended. It is plummeting.

No, a ray-casting restriction that hides certain objects in third person view only to have them pop into visual existence later is arguably just as immersion breaking, if not more so. That being said, if at some point the developers thrown their hands up in the air and decide that death match PvP and banditry is the only end game that DayZ is going to have, then a ray-casting based solution that hides other players only might be acceptable, but if it comes to that, then I'd take that as a sign that the developers have ultimately failed to make a game that's focused on zombie survival. And even then, the ray-casting solution presents problems. In real life if another person moves up next to me in my peripheral vision, but doesn't step directly in front of me, there's a very good chance I'm going to still be aware that they're there even thought they would be outside the tunnel vision ray-cast provided from the first person view calculation.

Also, as I said before, the only time a player's choice to use third person view can negatively impact someone else's gameplay is in certain PvP situations. However, considering the way the game is already breaking down, then last thing they need to be doing is making design decisions concerning PvP at the expense of the already lacking PvE aspect of the game. And personally, I think for most players, having what you see on screen be what's actually there regardless of your view angle is more immersive than having some objects be hidden because of the view angle you've chosen to play the game in.

[Max Planck 7174]

And personally, I think for most players, having what you see on screen be what's actually there regardless of your view angle is more immersive than having some objects be hidden because of the view angle you've chosen to play the game in.

The objects would not be hidden because you choose to play in 3rdP, they would be hidden because your character can't see them. They would be hidden to everyone, regardless of view settings.

The way it is now, it is possible to sit on a roof top or behind a wall and shoot people with virtually no fear of retaliation. Because they can't see you, but you can see them.

Do you think that creates more mindless playerkilling, or less?

In real life if another person moves up next to me in my peripheral vision, but doesn't step directly in front of me, there's a very good chance I'm going to still be aware that they're there even thought they would be outside the tunnel vision ray-cast provided from the first person view calculation.

In the game though, they don't need to move into your peripheral vision, you can see them when they are perfectly still, prone, on the other side of a solid concrete wall.

[Positronica 30]

The explanation about having a feel for your body from BIS when in 3P is pathetic imo because you don't need the feeling when you can actually see it and you never develop the feeling of immersion that way.

Says you. Immersion is a subjective feeling. Myself, and others, find third person to be more immersive because we're able to associate the visual awareness of our character's body with the physical awareness you'd have in real life. We also feel that having to use free look or some sort of view rotation in first person in order to be aware of your immediate surroundings is a cumbersome way to handle something that you accomplish passively and almost effortlessly in real life.

[Positronica 30]

The objects would not be hidden because you choose to play in 3rdP, they would be hidden because your character can't see them. They would be hidden to everyone, regardless of view settings.

That's not the point, though. When it comes to immersion, the goal is to make the player feel like he is the character and not just someone controlling the character. Putting another layer that has to be worked through between what the player sees and what the character sees works against that goal. It also easily makes things very confusing. For example, let's so there's a player running along the bottom of a hill in the forest in third person view, and from that view he can clearly see the top of the hill, and everything looks clear, so he runs up there and suddenly there's a zombie right on top of him. Your explanation to the player would be, "Sure, you were able to see the top of the hill, but your character wasn't, so while we let you see all other stuff at the top of the hill, such as the trees and the rocks, we hid the zombie from you. That right there creates a clear break between the player and his character, and it's just not necessary.

The way it is now, it is possible to sit on a roof top or behind a wall and shoot people with virtually no fear of retaliation. Because they can't see you, but you can see them.

Do you think that creates more mindless playerkilling, or less?

It's debatable weather it creates more or less. Players who are trying to avoid PvP can just as easily use the awareness granted by third person view to spot another player early enough to either run away or try to communicate before it turns into a surprise KOS situation. That's all besides the point, though, because PvP is already a mess as it is, and they definitely shouldn't be trying to fix PvP by gimping the PvE game. The proper solution to bandits taking advantage of third person is to enhance and expand the humanity system and to put in plenty of PvE end-game content to a degree that it significantly reduces banditry attempts, and not just their success rate.

[Max Planck 7174]

When it comes to immersion, the goal is to make the player feel like he is the character and not just someone controlling the character. Putting another layer that has to be worked through between what the player sees and what the character sees works against that goal.

I'll let you answer that:

Says you. Immersion is a subjective feeling.

Apart from that I think, all we can agree to is to disagree.

EDIT: Hey Rpatto, sorry for the hijack. We are why you can't have nice things.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Max Planck

[terrvik 2409]

Eh, screw it. Let's just go isometric and turn based combat. Problem solved!

[enforcer1975 1111]

This ray tracing restriction only looks like something work hacking away to me...no hiding stuff behind other stuff which you can attempt to remove anytime when hacking is highly possible ( and no game ist unhackable, it just needs time and the countermeasure afterwards ).

Either you see it or you don't which brings us to the main problem with 3P in a competetive gameplay, it's not your usual MMO where it doesn't matter if you see an enemy first or not because the skill level and even you vision of your character is based upon his level and items he uses even if you get the first move all it's all depending on that in the end. Let's take WoT as an example where i watched a friend play it, you can be in plain sight and the enemy won't detect you because you tank has a greater visual range due to better optics or you don't detect an enemy because you haven't seen him yet or you see an enemy you don't have a LOS to because one of your teammates sees him etc. That's not the game this is supposed to be. 3P is not a problem in SP...

Edited February 20, 2013 by Enforcer

[dallas 5195]

But we all accept that on 3P server, the problem only arises because 1P players refuse to fill up their own servers.

[thesodesa 99]

But we all accept that on 3P server, the problem only arises because 1P players refuse to fill up their own servers.

Crossing out 3rd person in Dayz commander gave me 1 server with under 500 ping. There's your problem right there.

[dallas 5195]

That's not my problem, I prefer 3rd person servers.

[Max Planck 7174]

But we all accept that on 3P server, the problem only arises because 1P players refuse to fill up their own servers.

I play quite happily on a (often full) 1st person only server.

The problem is the standalone, and I believe that is what we are discussing here.

It seems Rocket is going to make it harder to change between 3rd and 1st, which leads me to believe he is trying to come up with a sort of 'unified solution'. A one-and-only server setting.

This could mean we will lose the '1stP' only servers.

Why would he change the 3rd person mechanics so radically if we can still change the server settings to avoid it? I'm afraid we will get the worst of both worlds, with no choice.

That's my problem.

[rpatto92@hotmail.com 26]

I play quite happily on a (often full) 1st person only server.

The problem is the standalone, and I believe that is what we are discussing here.

It seems Rocket is going to make it harder to change between 3rd and 1st, which leads me to believe he is trying to come up with a sort of 'unified solution'. A one-and-only server setting.

This could mean we will lose the '1stP' only servers.

Why would he change the 3rd person mechanics so radically if we can still change the server settings to avoid it? I'm afraid we will get the worst of both worlds, with no choice.

That's my problem.

That's not my problem, I prefer 3rd person servers.

If you prefer 3rd person only; then you have nothing to add of value, same goes to people who only like 1st person and want see 3rd person removed. This is a thread discussing how a better balance could be struck between the two perspectives; if you're not interested in discussing a compromise between them, leave. You've been aloud to cheer-lead your preferred perspective; you've discussed its benefits, there is nothing more you could possibly say to convey your appreciation of either perspective (in your case 3rd) so stop repeating yourself, go voice your opinion, vote on a poll, support your cause in the appropriate place.

Crossing out 3rd person in Dayz commander gave me 1 server with under 500 ping. There's your problem right there.

Lets be clear here: I like 3rd person; I'm not about removing it, I'm about striking some middle ground between perspectives.

There is certainly an issue: in the mod there does seam to be a sense that 1st person isn't a viable option in game and or supported by servers owners and I think most people, including myself and I believe also Rocket would like to see a better balance struck between 1st and 3rd person. By that I mean a couple of things, which were also mentioned in the original post; in that 1st person need a boost and 3rd person need to become more grounded. At the moment: there's a disadvantage to using 1st person almost at all times; what i want to see is a role reversal were 3rd person can be used tactically but allowing 1st person to still be a usable option for players, I think my suggestion allows for both without destroying or removing 3rd person at all.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Rpatto92

[enforcer1975 1111]

But we all accept that on 3P server, the problem only arises because 1P players refuse to fill up their own servers.

That's not the problem...most server hosts don't even know that they can change settings or even know how to set them up and accept them as they come from the provider.

And if you don't want to be in the disadvantage you will have adapt to the same level in order to not be in the disadvantage all the time. What 3P players don't seem to see is that even if they use 3P in a fight they will also be in a disadvantage when someone sneaks upon them from the side using 3P to look along the walls. You can see clearly what's in front of you but a lot don't watch their flanks enough and wonder why that could happen...