lipemr 160 Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) All im going to say is that if i shoot you with an AR chambered for 5.56 you will not keep running unless you have something to stop the bullet.Edit: and thats 1 shot!if you get shot by a freaking .45 ACP on the chest, you shouldnt even stand up because of the shock, but for some reason, you can take more than a dozen .45 to the chest and you'll still be able to run fine.Most weapons, even a .22 LR, are 1~3 shot incapacitating, this "realism" argument makes no sense at all.You should pass out REALLY easily, but die more slowly.The only insta-kills that should happen are from headshots, even a .50 to the chest wont kill at the same time it hits.Dammit, even chopping down someone's head wont kill them instantly, the brain will survive for something like 5 seconds before dying. Edited February 18, 2013 by lipemr Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Khoysta 17 Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) Arma 2 is a "Simulator"If you took 4 shots to the body, would you be perfectly fine?4 shots (with 60% chest placement) for complete death (3 shots would be lying on the ground) at 100-150m. Also it was against fanatic insurgents believing they are fighting for their religion.But it depends on the body size,the distance of the shots and shot placement. Edited February 18, 2013 by Khoysta Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HERBERT-THETREE 44 Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) if you get shot by a freaking .45 ACP on the chest, you shouldnt even stand up, but for some reason, you can take more than a dozen .45 to the chest and you'll still be able to run fine.Most weapons, even a .22 LR, are 1~3 shot kill, this "realism" argument makes no sense at all.I did not say kill. I said you will stop running, meaning the bullet would cause you to stumble and fall, depending on were you are shot, yes a simple flesh wound you will be fine, however just about anything to the leg is going to knock you down, and being shot in the chest/abdominal area will often have the same effect on a person in motion, although there are instances of people continuing to run that is usually from a pistol round and then as soon as they realize they have been shot (assuming they do not right away) their heart rate will increase and most likely will go into shock. You are right most rifles do not emidiatly kill in 1 shot, but most have enough knock down power to put you on your ass, the 5.56 has a variation of effects some people can stay up, but most fall when shot by it. and a couple .45 to the chest is more than enough to kill some one. Edited February 18, 2013 by HERBERT-THETREE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lipemr 160 Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) I did not say kill. I said you will stop running, meaning the bullet would cause you to stumble and fall, depending on were you are shot, yes a simple flesh wound you will be fine, however just about anything to the leg is going to knock you down, and being shot in the chest/abdominal area will often have the same effect on a person in motion, although there are instances of people continuing to run that is usually from a pistol round and then as soon as they realize they have been shot (assuming they do not right away) their heart rate will increase and most likely will go into shock. You are right most rifles do not emidiatly kill in 1 shot, but most have enough knock down power to put you on your ass, the 5.56 has a variation of effects some people can stay up, but most fall when shot by it. and a couple .45 to the chest is more than enough to kill some one.Actually most usual rifle rounds will just go all through the target's body, as we're talking of military weapons, and the military uses FMJ rounds, not ho-point or soft point rounds.So a .45 ho-point (that's MUCH more common than 5.56 ho-point) would be much more devastating to the target, as it would shred all his organs, while a 5.56 would usually just poke a hole and cause an internal bleeding, without fragmenting or expanding inside the target's body.all the "damage" system on dayZ is screwed up, we're not talking about realism anymore, it's all about balancing.Without mention that the 12 gauge slugs do less damage than the pellets on this game, the slug's damage are just the biggest joke in the game, you need 3 slugs to the chest of someone to actually kill them, while in real life, just one would fuck him up totally.Let's see some examples here:5.56mm FMJ (ammo used by military) on Ballistic gel:http://youtu.be/SPzxBJSIaGA?t=1m25s.45ACP hollow point on Ballistic gel:http://youtu.be/mftGL4VY8QQ?t=1m48s12 Gauge slug on Ballistic gel:http://youtu.be/7HuVkXLreWE?t=2m22sSee the difference on the damage on simulated tissue and the damage on the game? Do you really think there's still anything to discuss? Edited February 18, 2013 by lipemr Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HERBERT-THETREE 44 Posted February 18, 2013 Actually most usual rifle rounds will just go all through the target's body, as we're talking of military weapons, and the military uses FMJ rounds, not ho-point or soft point rounds.So a .45 ho-point (that's MUCH more common than 5.56 ho-point) would be much more devastating to the target, as it would shred all his organs, while a 5.56 would usually just poke a hole and cause an internal bleeding, without fragmenting or expanding inside the target's body.all the "damage" system on dayZ is screwed up, we're not talking about realism anymore, it's all about balancing.good to see im talking to someone who has knowlegde on these things and not just another idiot. You are correct in everthing you said. but even though the rounds (5.56) do normaly just pass through the body without expanding, theres generaly enough force behind the bullet to put them on the ground. The reason the military uses 5.56 fmj is because they want to wound their target not kill them (altho most soldiers shoot to kill). If the target is not hurt bad enough to take them out of the fight then it is not doing its job. My point is this amunition will still stop a man running away, not necessarily because it kills him but because hes wounded. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lipemr 160 Posted February 18, 2013 good to see im talking to someone who has knowlegde on these things and not just another idiot. You are correct in everthing you said. but even though the rounds (5.56) do normaly just pass through the body without expanding, theres generaly enough force behind the bullet to put them on the ground. The reason the military uses 5.56 fmj is because they want to wound their target not kill them (altho most soldiers shoot to kill). If the target is not hurt bad enough to take them out of the fight then it is not doing its job. My point is this amunition will still stop a man running away, not necessarily because it kills him but because hes wounded.Not really, a big chunk of the energy that the 5.56mm have is lost with the pass-through, but i agree with you that it should incapacitate the target easily, i didnt say that, i'm saying that the whole damage system on dayZ is screwed up, we have much unrealistic damages that have been made like that to balance the game, like slugs doing 4500 damage (while they should do more damage than a rifle round) or a 9mm(makarov) not killing people with a headshot.Rocket already made his choice on balancing over realism, so we cant really put realism on the table when we're going to discuss nerfs or buffs on bullet damage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HERBERT-THETREE 44 Posted February 18, 2013 very true, unfortunate but true. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheDesigner 1197 Posted February 18, 2013 Wait. I'm confused. You want the game to be less like CoD/BD3 (because dying quickly is a thing in that game, right? Right...?) so we should make guns do LESS damage so you need MORE bullets to kill someone. Or is it completely opposite? I think you should reword your OP. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HERBERT-THETREE 44 Posted February 18, 2013 Wait. I'm confused. You want the game to be less like CoD/BD3 (because dying quickly is a thing in that game, right? Right...?) so we should make guns do LESS damage so you need MORE bullets to kill someone. Or is it completely opposite? I think you should reword your OP.I think he wants the weapons to do more damage. kind to hard to tell i know. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
the13th (DayZ) 32 Posted February 18, 2013 Lipmr, the mil does use other ammo besides fmj, just not too often. And jacketed rounds will only go through a body at danger close ranges, where velocities are still high. Most rounds, 5.56 included, are designed to tumble when hitting anything moist like flesh, so as to cause maximum damage through ripping of the flesh along with hydraulic shock, tumbling also allows the round to impart all its energy to the target before it leaves the body, therefore ensuring the round has the greatest chance of not passing through.One shot kill of the instant variety??The only place to guarantee that, and it will work with smaller calibres, is at the base of the skull and top of spine. From side and rear, aim level with ear lobes at top of spine, from front aim just below nose. This severs the spinal cord, and hydro shock makes a mess of brain stem. Death almost instantaneous.Implementing that in the game i imagine may be relatively hard?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enforcer1975 1111 Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) No need to bump (most) weapon damage. Just reduce player health instead. The new damages make more sense when players have normal ArmA health.I haven't tried the L85 Holo much (only once) except for a few times in Wasteland, but if it is actually doing 8000 damage that is unacceptable.Prolly just some rumor because someone can't stand the rifle.It still uses the same ammo as the M4 / M16. As long as it uses the same ammo class all weapons using that ammo class will do the same damage, the only difference will be the precision of each rifle over distance. Normally shorter barreled rifles are less effective at greater ranges but i don't think they have that feature in the game, it would be fine though because it would make sense to use a full length rifle instead of a carbine if you intend to shoot over distances that exceed the effective range of the carbine ( barrel length does matter for those who think otherwise as well as using a shorter rifle in cqb situations ) Edited February 18, 2013 by Enforcer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-Gews- 7443 Posted February 18, 2013 Prolly just some rumor because someone can't stand the rifle.It still uses the same ammo as the M4 / M16. As long as it uses the same ammo class all weapons using that ammo class will do the same damage, the only difference will be the precision of each rifle over distance. Normally shorter barreled rifles are less effective at greater ranges but i don't think they have that feature in the game, it would be fine though because it would make sense to use a full length rifle instead of a carbine if you intend to shoot over distances that exceed the effective range of the carbine ( barrel length does matter for those who think otherwise as well as using a shorter rifle in cqb situations )Yup, I checked, it's not true. Someone made a mistake on the damage charts. They don't model specific muzzle velocities in the game; it depends what magazines you use, which kinda.... sucks. ACE corrected that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reuben5150 83 Posted February 18, 2013 But your point is invalid if you whine about a change that the DayZ mod has nothing to do with.Not invalid at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
-Gews- 7443 Posted February 18, 2013 Not invalid at all.Rocket and the DayZ team had nothing to do with the change, however, they should have reacted by adjusting the player health to better fit the new damages. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reuben5150 83 Posted February 18, 2013 Wait. I'm confused. You want the game to be less like CoD/BD3 (because dying quickly is a thing in that game, right? Right...?) so we should make guns do LESS damage so you need MORE bullets to kill someone. Or is it completely opposite? I think you should reword your OP.I don't know about Cod, but TTK in BF games is pretty low on paper and probably close to arma in harcore mode, but in reallity its not the case because of crappy hitreg and netcode, but this is another story.All i'm saying is i think we should try to keep a realistic feel to the weapons, right now the pistols and 5.56mm seem weak and out of ballance with everything else,, 7.62 snipers etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reuben5150 83 Posted February 18, 2013 Rocket and the DayZ team had nothing to do with the change, however, they should have reacted by adjusting the player health to better fit the new damages.So Rocket has no control over damage values in the mod ? bullshit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416 Posted February 18, 2013 Damage values are changed through the Arma2 beta patches.DayZ development can't do anything about them. Unless they change player/zed health values to compensate, like Gews said already.It's already been mentioned here, but be clear whether you're talking about making them "realistic" or "balanced".To be "realistic", the .308's biggest advantage over a .223 would be accuracy over range. But if you want them "balanced", it would probably just be made to hurt more.The debate will no doubt rage on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Draco122 412 Posted February 18, 2013 Damage values are changed through the Arma2 beta patches.DayZ development can't do anything about them. Unless they change player/zed health values to compensate, like Gews said already.It's already been mentioned here, but be clear whether you're talking about making them "realistic" or "balanced".To be "realistic", the .308's biggest advantage over a .223 would be accuracy over range. But if you want them "balanced", it would probably just be made to hurt more.The debate will no doubt rage on.To add onto that if the game/mod was going for a realistic approach, wouldn't 5,56 SD ammo be useless or to the point where only a headshot would suffice due to the lower power of the round and be extremely difficult to score reliable hits over range?And wouldn't 5,45 fired from the AK-74 do equal or more damage than the 5,56? Looking at the DayZ wiki it says 5,45 does 2722. Yet reports indicate that the 5,45 fired from an AK-74 does almost equal damage to the M16Also I think most people are forgetting that sometimes its safer to put more rounds downrange because of technical issues such as bad connection or lagg Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416 Posted February 18, 2013 wouldn't 5,45 fired from the AK-74 do equal or more damage than the 5,56? Looking at the DayZ wiki it says 5,45 does 2722. Yet reports indicate that the 5,45 fired from an AK-74 does almost equal damage to the M16The difference between the two has become noticeably clearer because DayZ pretty much DOUBLES the health of normal ArmA2 characters. So there's greater disparity in the "rounds to kill" stakes.I not familiar with subsonic ammo, so I won't join that particular banter. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dancing.Russian.Man 1631 Posted February 18, 2013 So Rocket has no control over damage values in the mod ? bullshit.Damage values are changed through the Arma2 beta patches.DayZ development can't do anything about them. Unless they change player/zed health values to compensate, like Gews said already.The ARMA 2 engine is very open and rather easy to mod. So changing weapon values(damage, in this case) is possible and easily done, compared to other things.But the DayZ mod doesn't change the values from what they are originally.This is why you should go onto the BI/ARMA 2 forums and complain there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416 Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) Good to know. I always just assumed that damage values were static according to base ArmA2.Can't say I've noticed any difference in any mod I've played, but I'm not a big fan of Arma (too militaristic for my tastes) so I've got less experience with it than most.All I can say for certain is I know the patches change weapon stats occasionally.We're allowed to disagree with regards to opinion, but not facts. :D Edited February 18, 2013 by Chabowski Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
reuben5150 83 Posted February 18, 2013 But the DayZ mod doesn't change the values from what they are originally.This is why you should go onto the BI/ARMA 2 forums and complain there.And what do you think the reaction would be over on the BI forums to some dayz player "complaining" that Arma damage values are screwing with the mod ?, feel free to try though. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dancing.Russian.Man 1631 Posted February 18, 2013 And what do you think the reaction would be over on the BI forums to some dayz player "complaining" that Arma damage values are screwing with the mod ?, feel free to try though.From now on I'll just consider you a troll. I have a feeling I should've done that from the start.Have some beans for the successful attempt.As my last note; I have no problem with the firepower of the weapons,so there is no reason for me to try and complain about it anywhere. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heiduk 265 Posted February 18, 2013 On the subject of player health/blood count.IMO players and zeds should have the same health, with the difference being that zeds don't bleed, so "on-contact" damage would be all that counts.Agreed, if anything Zs could have more health if we are assuming they are some sort of 28 Days Later style rage monster that ignores pain. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thehero 119 Posted February 18, 2013 Honestly, it's a clusterfuck, Enfield reduced to 6000 for a 303, and the German smg, I forget the name is worthless.MP5? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites