Player Skill. (This is not a leveling thread).

[CreepySalad 108]

While reading (yet again), another skills thread, I thought of an idea that will actually be about player skill, and not...not player skill.

To make things more interactive.

For example, put more first aid stuffs in the game, and allow players to bandage (for example) through a little surgeon mini-game.

From the surface, it appears all you have to do is move your mouse around to bandage your wound.

But there would be more optional things sorta hidden.

Like dose the wound with alcohol or peroxide. (or a liquid of any kind, really. Oil if you feel as though that would be a good idea.)

Or you could remove the bullet from the wound if he person you're operating on was shot in a little...remove the bullet type minigame thing. (I was thinking this would be more time consuming and delicate. Could cause the patient to scream or something, attracting zombies and players. Unless you put him to sleep, of course.)

And when you give an injection, you have to put the needle in the correct place or something.

Same with reparing vehicles and stuff. (I don't know anything about cars, sorry ;~;.)

This will allow actual player skill and knowledge be implemented into these things, instead of any average Joe being able to do them with absolutely no knowledge on the subject.

It won't be TOO complicated, but it would be complex enough to prevent everybody from doing everything.

Imagine being the offical mechanic of the group you're in.

It also could promote team play.

It could be: "Dude, can you fix my truck", instead of "Dude, I'm just gonna take you out because I can fix my car myself".

Sounds pretty cool to me.

[Testwd3r235 2810]

I'm 50/50. It sounds good but can it be done right and not just a boring repeat of the same animation...

[RedUkraine 5]

I'm 50/50. It sounds good but can it be done right and not just a boring repeat of the same animation...

True...

[Clumzy (DayZ) 377]

Making complex tasks actually complex is a must have. I would love this as a feature in DayZ, but if it's not very hard to do something, then people will become proficient at these tasks quite quickly. If you want something difficult, it needs:

Variables. To make an example, depending on where a player is shot, pulling out a bullet could be as dangerous as the bullet was in the first place. You'd have to make sure that you don't hit a major artery in the arm or leg, or any of the vital organs in the chest. You could have a lot of unsatisfied patients if you don't know what you're doing.

No hud. No 'Press X' pop-up, no indicators saying where to place something, you need to know beforehand.

Realism: Not just 'place the object here', maybe something that actually requires a rudimentary real-world knowledge. That would ensure a bit of variety in player skills.

It could be hard to do something like this right, but if they did, it would be amazing. I like what you're thinking.

:beans:

Edited January 23, 2013 by Clumzy

[CreepySalad 108]

I can't seem to edit my post on mobile, so I'll just...

I was thinking that a majority of the wounds would be different.

Various different bites, scratches, bullet wounds, cuts, etcetera, etcetera.

So that way they wouldn't be ALL the same.

But that'd be hard to implement, huh?

So yeah, never mind.

Thanks for your response. .

[dragonkatol 135]

I like it. (imma edit this post later for a more detailed explanation why, but im too lazy right now.)

[Talibambi 119]

I mentioned something about actual "skills" in another thread. But yeah I really like the minigame idea. In the other thread I mentioned having a lockpick screen similar to that out of Skyrim where you have to manually pick the lock (Id have it more detailed but thats just me)

This is the kinda thing that would make Dayz tonnes better rather than just *click* /wait for animation.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

hmm but then how many of these mini-games shall be implemented? for almost every side activity i guess (picking locks, medical treatment, gutting and skinning animals, crafting?, repairing.) But as everone demands authenticity and realism these groups split into subgroups (medical: prophylaxis, infection treatment, bullet wounds, ordinary wounds; gutting: different for every animal; repairing: cars, helis, weapons..)

Well and that's not the end of it: The shall not be too shallow you say...so every mini-game has to be complicated somehow, so not everyone manages to do it successfully...and of course shall offer sort of variety, not to become too repetitive.

So, as i mentioned in one of these other skill threads, you'll have then ~230 (yeah slightly exaggerated ;) ) simulation games and we then call it mother of simulations simulation game. It is absolutely impossible to cope.

That's why i thought about such a mechanism at some point but had to scrap it therefore.

Edited January 23, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[terrvik 2409]

The mini games would not have to be super advanced, just some basic knowledge of the general field required. Like some basic knowhow about electricity to fix a battery (like a small minigame where you connect wires to the negative or positive pole... I know absolutely nothing about electricity, but you get the point) or just having the sense to apply disinfection on a wound before bandages.

I also mentioned this before but all descriptions and names on equipment should be removed. You should learn for yourself what type of ammo goes in what gun and so on,

[joe_mcentire 2074]

The mini games would not have to be super advanced, just some basic knowledge of the general field required. Like some basic knowhow about electricity to fix a battery (like a small minigame where you connect wires to the negative or positive pole... I know absolutely nothing about electricity, but you get the point) or just having the sense to apply disinfection on a wound before bandages.

I also mentioned this before but all descriptions and names on equipment should be removed. You should learn for yourself what type of ammo goes in what gun and so on,

but then wouldn't it be a challenge after quite some short time simply becoming a reptitive annoyance?

Edited January 23, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[CreepySalad 108]

Ah, not if they have variety.

If done correctly, it would bring a lot more tension to the game.

Imagine having someone in your group shot, but having no one to tend to it correctly.

If a better damage system was implemented, they could get an infection, which could possibly lead to death.

As I said, this would add a new gameplay element that could prevent the kill on sight attitude.

Being shot would be a lot more dangerous, and people out there know different things.

If you're a bandit with a broken car, but have no one to fix it, you

[CreepySalad 108]

This phone is composed of pure ass-cheeks. Sorry.

...could trade for someone to fix it.

Or threaten someone and force them to fix it.

[Clumzy (DayZ) 377]

I also mentioned this before but all descriptions and names on equipment should be removed. You should learn for yourself what type of ammo goes in what gun and so on,

I like that idea, maybe an animation of 'trying to load the incorrect mag but it won't fit'.

[m00tley 50]

I posted the exactly same thing on the "Skill System in DayZ??" topic, and basically the idea got bashed by people saying "Mini-games are stupid".

Here i'm again! =D

Well, i was thinking about this skill idea on the last couple of days and i came to a conclusion about what could be done about it. I see people complaining about the fact that they don't wanna "grind" so they can fix a helicopter, and that's ok (In fact i don't think it is ok, but let's just leave it be for the sake of the idea), let them repair their helicopter, BUT, not without a fucking mini-game, where you need to fix the helicopter piece by piece, something like lock-picking on skyrim, something that involves dexterity. You are able to fix it without any skill, but you are gonna have a harder time than the guy who has engineering (If you fuck up, you lose the material and maybe damage the helicopter even more). You wanna fix your friends leg? Do the fucking "Broken Leg Mini-game" but if you fail, your friend will have a hemorrhage and will most likely die. Wanna gut some animal? "Cut-The-Meat Game", if you fail you may cut off your finger.

Imagine that your friend got shot, ok? You need to remove the bullet, stop the bleeding and bandage him, ok?

Step 1: U r gonna need a knife, and will need to open up his leg (Let's say he got shot in the leg), if you don't have a good amount of medical skills, you character hands will shake more than normal. If you fuck up, you may end up causing a hemorrhage, or killing him depending on how much blood he still has.

Step 2: Apply stitches to the injury, if you fail, that's ok, but there's a chance that later on the stitches will fall apart and expose the injury again, which may lead to an infection.

Step 3: Blood transfusion. If you fuck up your friend will be just fine, but his aim will be fucked up for a while because of the pain on his arm.

This way, people who don't wanna bother grinding will be able to do W/E they want, BUT failure will have consequences (If you are a medic, an engineer, a hunter, u still have the chance to fail, and the consequences are the same, but the mini game will be easier for you.).

PS: That is just an example of how it could be done. This way people would still be able to do w/e they wanted to do and at the same time would make you consider that it is a better idea to find a real doctor instead of helping your friend by yourself.

PS2: Imagine someone fucking up a helicopter engine. It may fly, but it may fail during the flight.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

so then i'll quote as this has been addressed to you before in "that" skill thread:

I suggest alternatives - and there is no "bashing" on my part. I fully understand what the OP is on about and think that skills are one way of giving life value in DayZ. It is also the most obvious one IMO. All I want to do is try to bring to light other possibilities. I understand that subtlety is a hard thing to convey in forums, so this " :P " was just a friendly jab in the ribs, not a slap in the face.

calm down, not because someone does not agree with you means his is bashing your ideas or rates them as horsesh*t. calm down and learn how to argue rather than ...well you know what i mean.

moreover there were some which partly agreed on your ideas..

Edited January 23, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[CreepySalad 108]

No, I'm saying reply on player knowledge and skill.

Not player character skill.

I hate the idea of exp in a game like Day Z.

[joe_mcentire 2074]

but how do you think this would be manageable in a reasonable fashion and moreover in reasonable effort for the devs? I kinda like the idea but there are these huge signs of interrogation. It has to offer some level of depth as claimed and also huge amount of variety so that the brought in effect won't wear off in a short period of time.

All these things combined together, i can't see how to work things out. Eventually you'll be able to do so but always at cost of at least one of its pillars, so we get back to a system which, as in almost every other game, wears off after some time and gets only annoying.

[Wep0n 532]

This will allow actual player skill and knowledge be implemented into these things, instead of any average Joe being able to do them with absolutely no knowledge on the subject.

I agree totally.

thats where the standalone is currently heading by making driving helicopters more challenging, and increasing the complexity of the medical system.

i still think that there is alot to do. especially hunting should be alot more challenging.

your idea with the minigame only works if it is made authentic. aslong as it doesn't look gamey i'm fine with that.

how i could imagine the "surgeon minigame" to work is not by making an artificial new interface or something, but just looking at the patient's/your own wounds, and applying one medical treatment after another.

so if your leg is wounded and you want your friend to fix it (because a helping hand is usually better in reallife aswell) he will have to find the wound on your body, see if it bleeds, apply alcohol, bandages whatever in real time. that makes it alot more authentic than if the player has some kinda weird interface infront of his face which breaks the authenticity.

also by repairing a car, you should be able to go under the car itself and look at the fuel tank for example, detect the destroyed part, and fix it with the proper tools.

[HKilf 15]

It seems like some people have thought about this before. I like the idea and OPs example with the alcohol and bandage. I do think this system would increase immersion by a lot, atleast for me... if done correctly. I don't think you should have to trigger the 'treat wound' event followed by a new UI popping up on the screen or something like that. Maybe that's how it has to be done but atleast make it subtle, like the character you're treating lies down or something so that you can inspect them more easily and then just spray disinfectant on them (could miss and hit the ground) etc.

Furthermore, this made me think about this system being part of a greater one. Letting someone operate on you means getting into a somewhat vulnerable position, right? What if the surgeon could purposely sever a vain etc? This would add a lot of tension... imagine forcing some pro medical dude to operate on your dying friend with the knowledge that he controls the outcome of your buddy.

What I mean is that the same system that handles amputating a sick leg should perhaps also offer the possibility to amputate a healthy leg... yes, I'm a sick bastard. :)

[dzuari 25]

Reading this thread:

At first I was like,

But the I was like,

[dzuari 25]

Hopefully this would create more incentive to band together with random people. They would be given value instead of just their loot.

I think a mix of current mechanics and this would work really well, joe schmo can still use a bandage to stop the bleeding but will need a surgeon to remove the bullet.

Short term effects:

As long as its in you, it should have a slight adverse effect such as an arm wound will make you sway a bit while aiming or a leg wound will slow your movement.

long term effect:

such as infection or even after a period of time, irreversible short term effects.

Vital shots should reduce your total health possible till fixed.

This would require a lot of variable scripting with ranges and % depending on how well you perform the actions.

[CreepySalad 108]

Yeah, I was thinking the the UI wouldn't be all odd and out of place or anything.

Just like, an arm if that's what you're operating on for example.

Think a more difficult, stressful, and real time Amateur Surgeon.

[dzuari 25]

Maybe give a invisible xp to the person every time they do it to make it easier and easier every time they operate. A newb might shake a lot and screw up the needle or cut.

You would of course loose your xp if you die :) giving more value to the player than just his loot.

[CreepySalad 108]

nono,

It should be about player skill and knowledge.

Not character skill and knowledge.

I acknowledged this in a previous post.

Unless, of course you were joking.

In that case, it was a good one.

[Bat (DayZ) 230]

+1 would be awesome.