Skill System in DayZ?

[joe_mcentire 2073]

The best thing about this game is that everyone is given the same character, and it's determine by player skill, luck, and playstyle that differs what happens on their adventures. We are the humans, there is nothing special about anyone who plays, which makes it a real experience.

i see where you're coming from. The idea shall be, that everyone is the same. You are not able to spawn into games as medic, or pioneer or huntsman...

I once used the expression "mantra-like" ;)... although we differ in some details i'll quote this again:

The Problem: Progression through equipment

There is a set of core issues which have become aparent during this alpha test:

- Low value of a player's (own) life

- Abundance of PvP

- Lack of longterm-motivation

.

.

.

The problem is: Low value of a player's (own) life.

The current game design does not assign any significant value to a players life (at least in DayZ terms),

as especially for groups equipment is easily recoverable.

This is one important factor for the abundance of PvP. It's the difference between reallife and a game;

you can just press respawn. And with DayZ's approach of char. progression = items, you are back in

action within minutes when playing in a team.

If you PvP - you will die, sooner or later.

If your character gains something which is bound to this character,

the character will be more worthfull to you (and more unique),

and the player will think twice: Do I start this fight? 20% I bite the dust...

and in addition this quote, if i may, by myself:

http://dayzmod.com/f...60#entry1124345

please read at least some of the posts before ;) ... you might would like to bring up more arguments

[hoik 415]

A lot of good discussion here :) .

I thought Id bring up two old threads of mine as they both relate to giving players lives intrinsic value. Though they may be too complex/convoluted I think they could provide different perspective on how players might give longterm value to themselves and other players.

Global Causality - http://dayzmod.com/f...-scope-of-dayz/

Life/Death Calculator - http://dayzmod.com/f...c-valueculture/

Edited January 20, 2013 by Hoik

[joe_mcentire 2073]

A lot of good discussion here :) .

I thought Id bring up two old threads of mine as they both relate to giving players lives intrinsic value. Though they may be too complex/convoluted I think they could provide different aspec on how players might give longterm value to themselves and other players.

Global Causality - http://dayzmod.com/f...-scope-of-dayz/

Life/Death Calculator - http://dayzmod.com/f...c-valueculture/

quite some ideas you have here...

[beastoverlord 574]

I still don't know why people keep bringing these up. So many repeat threads for wanting skill systems while almost no-one approves of them.

[joe_mcentire 2073]

I still don't know why people keep bringing these up. So many repeat threads for wanting skill systems while almost no-one approves of them.

because they are imminent. what about the Hero-system for example? and think about it, if they are always brought up again, what does it say to you? funnier that you spend a post, so this thread keeps bumped up ;)

[dragonkatol 135]

The problem is: Low value of a player's (own) life.

Why do you always assume that we don't read enough of your posts? Anyway, I understood where are you coming from, but i don't agree with it. First, you want to give the player to give more value to it's characters by implementing a good skill system so they'll get attached and be really scared if they die. It's a good idea but i don't like it in my own personal opinion. You gave your character it's value. The great thing about DayZ is that no-one is forcing you to be cautious or to grow attach to your character. If you don't give a shit, then don't. It's the freedom that i long for a sandbox game which DayZ achieved. I play cautiously because i just don't wanna die. I don't wanna kill bambis because i think it's wrong, not because i have an incentive on doing it.

There is a set of core issues which have become aparent during this alpha test:

- Low value of a player's (own) life

- Abundance of PvP

- Lack of longterm-motivation

I really doubt in SA even with it's features and your Skill system implemented that that PvP would dissolve into a smaller scale. It is the apocalypse after all. People are a threat as it always been.

The cool thing about DayZ is that people's motivation on playing it are different and often change. I play it because it's the closest thing i got on Zombie Apocalypse simulator and living in the woods and stalking survivors is interesting. My friend played it to grieve other players by running around with a hatchet while playing a creepy music in direct chat. And my other friend just want to create a clan colony. So, the lack of longterm-motivation is based on the player not on the game.

[joe_mcentire 2073]

Why do you always assume that we don't read enough of your posts?

i'm sorry to make false assumptions, but after all there are some posts which do not contribute in a constructive way

(and, i admit, it is simply my nature rather to argument then just saying yes or no, so i'm sorry to force anyone to do something)

, which are getting fewer and fewer. and i think this thread has its right for constructivism, positive as well as negative of course.

If you don't give a shit, then don't. It's the freedom that i long for a sandbox game which DayZ achieved. I play cautiously because i just don't wanna die

Of course you don't want to die! But sure i want to know what is it, that lets you attach to your character? In which way do you give your character value? It's just a thing of better understanding. Because obviously we differ in understanding.

But Which aspect is in contradiction to the suggested points? If you want to get into it, then do it! If not then don't give THAT shit. Why do some feel you would be forced to a certain style of playing?

The cool thing about DayZ is that people's motivation on playing it are different and often change. ... So, the lack of longterm-motivation is based on the player not on the game.

You know what?! Hell yeah! What do you want more from a game, right?

But guess what, not everyone is like you. Maybe there are some that don't stalk ppl with hatchets, or don't feel to get any excitement out of that, which includes myself for example.

First of all it is based on the player of course! There are some who like to play a ball against a wall all day long and they love it. but not everyone gets the same motivation/excitement from the same things. a "soft" well developed "microskill" system would be something for me to get more excitement out of this already beautiful game!

Let's not forget, this is "complaining on a high level".

[dragonkatol 135]

i'm sorry to make false assumptions, but after all there are some posts which do not contribute in a constructive way

(and, i admit, it is simply my nature rather to argument then just saying yes or no, so i'm sorry to force anyone to do something)

, which are getting fewer and fewer. and i think this thread has its right for constructivism, positive as well as negative of course.

Yeah, i kinda agree that some posts don't contribute much in this thread.

Of course you don't want to die! But sure i want to know what is it, that lets you attach to your character? In which way do you give your character value? It's just a thing of better understanding. Because obviously we differ in understanding.

But Which aspect is in contradiction to the suggested points? If you want to get into it, then do it! If not then don't give THAT shit. Why do some feel you would be forced to a certain style of playing?

I am attached to my character just for being my character. And with the up and coming Standalone that features things that will make my life a living hell will just make me more attach to my character. If you played The Walking Dead, You grew an attachment to Lee and Clem because you've been with them through hardships and the fun of it. I treat my character like a protagonist on my story because i can freely create a story of my own with nothing pre-made. Sure, some stories have been cut short because on some ghillied sniper. But it is still a story. That's what made DayZ popular. Though, I see that you are speaking of other players that don't get this concept which makes them give a lot-less value to their characters. The skill system will force players to be cautious because they'll lose their hard earned stats. And those players with the higher stats that are boosted will gain the upper hand to fresh spawns or players that "Don't give a shit about the Skill System".

You know what?! Hell yeah! What do you want more from a game, right?

But guess what, not everyone is like you. Maybe there are some that don't stalk ppl with hatchets, or don't feel to get any excitement out of that, which includes myself for example.

First of all it is based on the player of course! There are some who like to play a ball against a wall all day long and they love it. but not everyone gets the same motivation/excitement from the same things. a "soft" well developed "microskill" system would be something for me to get more excitement out of this already beautiful game!

Like i said, We all got different motivations on why we play DayZ. But most of those motivation are from either wanting to kidnap somebody or do something different from every other games and it rarely consider numbers. The only time i was motivated by a skill system is from Path of Exile because it fits in the game. Skills, Numbers and DayZ doesn't mix, IMHO.

Let's not forget, this is "complaining on a high level".

[GodOfGrain 191]

After 10 months of playing I indeed have difficulties to attach myself to the character anymore.

Sometimes it works, I make a fresh start and tell me: This time counts, I'll stay alive.

But it gets more and more difficult, as the character is so exchangable.

If you say "numbers don't fit to DayZ", there is always the option of hiding the

experience information altogether from the player.

You'd only get visual information from your interactions ingame,

e.g. you notice that some actions are more quicker / efficient / higher success probability.

Perhaps that would be an improvement to the system? Getting rid of the stats-sheet?

[GodOfGrain 191]

Some more in-depth skill examples

Fishing:

A nieche skill, and a rather difficult thing I guess. (Have fun inventing a believable minigame for that ^^)

So you'd start in this case with a really low success probability:

50: 10% success proability / 10 minutes

75: 20% in 10 mins

100: 45%

Gutting:

A difficult thing to do as well, skill progression could reflect that:

Example goat:

50: Takes 3 minutes, you get 2 meat

60: Takes 2.5 minutes, you get 2.25 meat

70: Takes 2 minutes, you get 2.5 meat

80: Takes 1.9 minutes, you get 2.7 meat

90: Takes 1.8 minutes, you get 2.8 meat

100: Takes 1.7 minutes, you get 3 meat.

Fast progression in the beginning.

Whether you get 2 or 3 steaks could be probability based.

Applying bandage, blood transfusion, morphine etc.

All medical skills are linked, so if you perform one of them, you'd get a bit better at other medical stats as well.

Bandage:

50: Takes 10 sec, success probability 60%

75: Takes 9 sec, success probability 70%

100: Takes 8 sec, success probabliity 80%

Bloodbag:

50: Takes 2 minutes, success probability 100%, 15 % chance of infection

75: Takes 1.75 minutes, success probability 100%, 5% chance of infection

100: Takes 1.5 minutes, success probability 100%, 0.5% chance of infection

Movement, Stamina:

Difference between 50 to 100 very low, but values below 50 have a distinct impact.

Allows to simulate impact of gunshot wounds, illness

50: Running speed 100%

100: Running speed 110%

and below 50:

40: Running speed 90%

30: RS 70%

20: RS 50%

Reduction of Stamina values could be permenant (gun shot) or temporary (illness)

Perhaps 1 shot to the leg would reduce stamina stats by 5-15.

[GriefSlicer (DayZ) 84]

LOL WHAT A RIDICULOUS IDEA... THIS IS SIMULATION YOU DON'T GET SKILL POINTS IRL. YOU GET SKILL, BUT YOU DON'T NEED POINTS

[GodOfGrain 191]

LOL WHAT A RIDICULOUS IDEA... THIS IS SIMULATION YOU DON'T GET SKILL POINTS IRL. YOU GET SKILL, BUT YOU DON'T NEED POINTS

That's the difference between real life and a game.

A skill system simulates progression.

All caps ftw

[victusmortuus 1074]

Why not just practice on things you want to be skillful at? Your brain is a hell of a thing, however I get people like to be spoon fed dexterity.

[Wep0n 532]

After 10 months of playing I indeed have difficulties to attach myself to the character anymore.

Sometimes it works, I make a fresh start and tell me: This time counts, I'll stay alive.

But it gets more and more difficult, as the character is so exchangable.

If you say "numbers don't fit to DayZ", there is always the option of hiding the

experience information altogether from the player.

You'd only get visual information from your interactions ingame,

e.g. you notice that some actions are more quicker / efficient / higher success probability.

Perhaps that would be an improvement to the system? Getting rid of the stats-sheet?

allright, i totally agree on everything EXCEPT that you do not need gameplaychanges to show your progress.

you do not need a certain boost on something.

you should indeed get a visible information on your progress/behavior/backstory.

it is the details that count!

did you get immensely hurt by a zombie once? you get a permanent scar, and a story to tell

have you crawled on the mud during a rainy day? you are dirty now

have you survived out there for several gaming days? you grow yourself a beard

have you looted a player? you get bloody hands

are you sick? you become pale

all these visual things which make your character distinct from others help to form your original self.

and the best of all: it is not only a small factor which makes you chop wood quicker, but it is something other people can see aswell and talk about it.

i think we got a similar goal, but different ways to achieve it.

but i really like the discussion, and the arguments by most of the people are well done.

[joe_mcentire 2073]

Why not just practice on things you want to be skillful at? Your brain is a hell of a thing, however I get people like to be spoon fed dexterity.

but what do you want to say? shall i go to hospital and request to observe medical treatment?! should i disassamble a car? you can't be serious if that is your point.

Edited January 20, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[victusmortuus 1074]

but what do you want to say? shall i go to hospital and request to observe medical treatment?! should i disassamble a car? you can't be serious if that is your point.

Why be so exaggerated haha. Let's stay in the world of video games my friend, no point saying you want to observe a Tracheotomy when we are discussing a skill system in Dayz.

If you want 'for example' more of a steady aim, why not just practice aiming and learn to play better? no point in the game spoon feeding you like it's some MMO or a Call of Duty game.

At the end of the day.... a skill system isn't going to happen so there's no point in this thread. ;)

[dragonkatol 135]

but what do you want to say? shall i go to hospital and request to observe medical treatment?! should i disassamble a car? you can't be serious if that is your point.

Actually, That's the "Skill System" DayZ need. I loved the feeling of learning something that the game provides. If i have to learn how to fix a car just to ride one, i would. I think when they announced that they are going to use ToH's System for helicopters and In-depth Weapon mechanics that i got what they want this game to be and it's amazing!

Why be so exaggerated haha. Let's stay in the world of video games my friend, no point saying you want to observe a Tracheotomy when we are discussing a skill system in Dayz.

If you want 'for example' more of a steady aim, why not just practice aiming and learn to play better? no point in the game spoon feeding you like it's some MMO or a Call of Duty game.

At the end of the day.... a skill system isn't going to happen so there's no point in this thread. ;)

Yeah, but it's fun discussing if it would work or not! :lol:

[joe_mcentire 2073]

Why be so exaggerated haha. Let's stay in the world of video games my friend, no point saying you want to observe a Tracheotomy when we are discussing a skill system in Dayz.

If you want 'for example' more of a steady aim, why not just practice aiming and learn to play better? no point in the game spoon feeding you like it's some MMO or a Call of Duty game.

At the end of the day.... a skill system isn't going to happen so there's no point in this thread. ;)

at the end of this day maybe not ;).

no, but would you count on that? then why did they even introduce such a mechanism as becoming Hero? What i think and see is mst are somewhat "afraid" of combat imbalances due to a skill system, although GodofGrain or myself in our ideas particularly stated the wrongness of such.

What about nvgs, aren't they a far more cruel advantage at the moment especially in night time or at heavy rain? I also think certain things shouldn't be far too complex as i believe rocket and his gang do not want to "obstruct access" to a broader community. Hence they will have to strike a balance.

[GodOfGrain 191]

it's better having a real skill than a skill mechanic simulating it.

Cause every element which you have to learn raises the learning curve;

a step learning curve is key.

One one hand now a game cannot simmulate real world skills and the progress therein.

Game industry often resorts to minigames in this setting; that's something I am not a fan of.

Beside that: The key point of the skill system is character identification.

The thesis is: Stronger identification with character leads to less PvP.

Regards

[tracksuithitman 56]

no

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Skills system doesn't fit or will ever fit DayZ. In games, skills/stats/class predetermine your role as a player but DayZ destroyed that shit. If you wanna play a "role" you really have to act and play like it. I've been a medic/healer in a lot of games that has a medic/healer class in it, and all i have to do is click on some skills and click on the player who i want to heal and bam! alive and well. It's bland, boring and it became a chore. It's all the same whichever "mechanic" you put it. DayZ made me felt like a medic, not a button smashing healer or a one click stealth extraordinaire if i played as a bandit/rogue/assassin. All i know by playing almost hundreds of hours into DayZ, My skill set would be:

lvl 5 Situational Awareness - Able to detect if environment is hostile or not.

lvl 3 Land Navigation - Has knowledge to navigate on land using various methods

lvl 4 Communication skill - Decrease confusion while communicating to teammates

etc. etc.

I found my stats page.

lvl 2 Situational Awareness - Can ID friendlies but still gets surprised by enemies in the 200 meters of open terrain

lvl 4 Land Navigation - can effectively read a map and navigate without a compass.

"EAST COAST!" +40% boost while on east coast

lvl 1 Communication skill - still says "ummmmmmm" over coms

Edited January 20, 2013 by SausageKingofChicago

[joe_mcentire 2073]

no

well that convinced me utterly...i ... i am disillusioned at this point :o

[joe_mcentire 2073]

well look what we've found here: http://ww.reddit.com...omments/16rmec/

from what i understand this is the latest changlog from R4Z0R49's github:

M1D15 Changes

* [NEW] - Axes now have a small chance to fail due to them being blunt (others later) 9% Chance. ** Can still be used as weapon **

* [NEW] - Matches can now run out (others later) 9% Chance. (at this time this is a random chance)

* [NEW] - Knife will now have a chance to go blunt causing it to give less food from gutting animals 9% chance(Blunt), 50% less food(Guting)

this might has some skill-potential ;)

Edited January 20, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[Wep0n 532]

@joe_mcentire

"running out of matches 9%chanche"

now thats most defenitely just a simplification because the mechanics are alot more complicated, and they didnt figure it out yet how to do it properly ^^

its the same as "a mag has a 3% chanche to be depleted after each shot" completly ridiculous.

a chanche system can make sense though. the chanche for getting sick was implemented long ago, and i dont see a connection to a skill system.

[joe_mcentire 2073]

@Wep0n

it would be one easy to implement type of mechanism: vary chances. Not the only one but still one. Well it was a quite odd post by me though :blush: