Dayz koS would be rife irl if there was an apocalypse

[Inception. 9443]

I think someone needs to go ahead and make a DayZ concept mod for Arma 3, but without zombies. Take out nearly all food and put in cannibalism. Now we have a legit historic reason to KOS which is what is always gonna happen in a video-game with no rules.

Cannibalism? Now that's interesting.

[Oompa 25]

Keep in mind, taking a life in first experience is something almost impossible to do unless when you are urged enough. But once you do it.. it'll stay with you forever.. you can't just simply witness it, that moment stays with you as long as you live.

It's probably not that hard, nor is it likely to cause very much psychological harm to you. We are made to believe that it is and will, so that we are discouraged from trying. And it works so well that we do indeed feel as if a large barrier is preventing us from killing.

That being said, there is no reason for us to kill, but there are places where such reasons come easily and in those areas you will be killed by an angry mob for very trivial reasons. If all you ever experienced was the relative safety of our own nations in Europe/America/Asia (for the most part) you are not likely to understand this and the concept is difficult for you, but another persons life is worth very little to you when you are trying to escape starvation and the other guy just stole your banana. You haven't experienced how it is in times when things are hard. Generally speaking people who knew each other will move closer, conversely forming new bonds becomes harder as paranoia soars and you become more liable to resort to force when you feel like you are being threatened, it's called instinct.

You cannot possibly expect to apply morals/ethics/law to a situation as extreme as a zombie apocalypse, it goes beyond the scope of any previous disaster and as such the effects would be greatly amplified. Morals and ethics are currently defined by our wealth and the resulting society around us, should that crumble the values most people are so proud of will crumble too. Those who stick to them may or may not succeed, they are however lowering their own survival chances by giving away supplies to people who may or may not be of help. More likely than not there would be a short period of time, right at the beginning I refer to as "the panic". People won't kill you, they might help you, but more likely than not they will decide to look away and run for their own life. After that people start teaming up when they meet, until they happen upon across a place that has supplies and get screwed over by another group. After a while groups will be hostile/cautious towards one another. KoS is rather unlikely though, unless the group has encountered so much hostility that it feels a need to protect itself in that way.

If you wanted to emulate this in a game you would have to reduce loot spawns to almost non-existant, introduce ways to protect gathered things whilst people are offline, and allow people to produce their own tools/food/weapons/housing/defences. With the system as it is players can regain gear rather easily on their own, food just keeps popping up around the place and weapons are plentiful. If the standalone introduces larger hordes of zombies, useable craftable close combat weapons, and reduces all sorts of guns to rarities it might work out that people team up more.

But currently the setup is basically an fps with the added requirement of finding your own gear. And that is how most people play it.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Oompa

[Itsnotcrazyuntilchachacha 13]

This post has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Your inability to relate subjects ain't something I care about, really.

I was talking about the way some DayZ players seem to despise KoS actions from their fallacious generalisation of morals. Was it so hard? Please allow me to suggest you to at least try and think before deciding someone's post is off-topic. Saves calories.

As further explanation, I'll say I have nothing against those who see KoS as an irritating, bitchy move from the CoD kids. I do respect and share the opinion that its excess affects playability and immersion. I'd be for its punishment, actually, as long as that (stopping the CoD kids) was the premise, but by no means shall I accept a game that punishes every time anyone who KoS, when in the setting of a Zombie apocalypse and civilization breakdown.

[Itsnotcrazyuntilchachacha 13]

It's probably not that hard, nor is it likely to cause very much psychological harm to you. We are made to believe that it is and will, so that we are discouraged from trying. And it works so well that we do indeed feel as if a large barrier is preventing us from killing.

That being said, there is no reason for us to kill, but there are places where such reasons come easily and in those areas you will be killed by an angry mob for very trivial reasons. If all you ever experienced was the relative safety of our own nations in Europe/America/Asia (for the most part) you are not likely to understand this and the concept is difficult for you, but another persons life is worth very little to you when you are trying to escape starvation and the other guy just stole your banana. You haven't experienced how it is in times when things are hard. Generally speaking people who knew each other will move closer, conversely forming new bonds becomes harder as paranoia soars and you become more liable to resort to force when you feel like you are being threatened, it's called instinct.

You cannot possibly expect to apply morals/ethics/law to a situation as extreme as a zombie apocalypse, it goes beyond the scope of any previous disaster and as such the effects would be greatly amplified. Morals and ethics are currently defined by our wealth and the resulting society around us, should that crumble the values most people are so proud of will crumble too. Those who stick to them may or may not succeed, they are however lowering their own survival chances by giving away supplies to people who may or may not be of help. More likely than not there would be a short period of time, right at the beginning I refer to as "the panic". People won't kill you, they might help you, but more likely than not they will decide to look away and run for their own life. After that people start teaming up when they meet, until they happen upon across a place that has supplies and get screwed over by another group. After a while groups will be hostile/cautious towards one another. KoS is rather unlikely though, unless the group has encountered so much hostility that it feels a need to protect itself in that way.

If you wanted to emulate this in a game you would have to reduce loot spawns to almost non-existant, introduce ways to protect gathered things whilst people are offline, and allow people to produce their own tools/food/weapons/housing/defences. With the system as it is players can regain gear rather easily on their own, food just keeps popping up around the place and weapons are plentiful. If the standalone introduces larger hordes of zombies, useable craftable close combat weapons, and reduces all sorts of guns to rarities it might work out that people team up more.

But currently the setup is basically an fps with the added requirement of finding your own gear. And that is how most people play it.

I second you there, let me add a tl;dr for those who can't read through the whole thing:

tl;dr: You guys basically have never experience what it is to live in a social pact lacking environment. Not even in some regular 3rd world country where they'll just stone you to death for trying to read a book. I'm trying to make you understand guys, your 1st world bubble morals do not apply, for flint's sake.

[Mastiff (DayZ) 42]

The difference from a potential 'real world' apocalypse is not everyone would be scripting AS50s in. 4 servers in a row today, I've spawned... moved about and then been killed by an AS50 within 5 minutes...

[porkus_maximus 36]

You cannot possibly expect to apply morals/ethics/law to a situation as extreme as a zombie apocalypse

No one in this thread is trying to apply civilised morals to a zombie apocalypse although it seems cunt-chops above me just decided to turn this thread into his soap-box and mock people who do. In this thread people are trying to claim that the KoS behaviour in DayZ is actually "realistic" which is a complete joke because DayZ simulates a survival situation extremely poorly, with infinate resources available.People in DayZ kill each other because that's all there really is to do, and the constant threat of PVP interaction is a heck of a lot more thrilling than the threat of watching your food/drink meter slowly turn red while you hide alone in the middle of bum-fuck nowhere. While I'm sure there would be some people who would chose to simply murder for the sake of murdering in a "realistic" apocalypse I do not think that it would be the status quo as we see in DayZ.

[Oompa 25]

No one in this thread is trying to apply civilised morals to a zombie apocalypse although it seems cunt-chops above me just decided to turn this thread into his soap-box and mock people who do. In this thread people are trying to claim that the KoS behaviour in DayZ is actually "realistic" which is a complete joke because DayZ simulates a survival situation extremely poorly, with infinate resources available.People in DayZ kill each other because that's all there really is to do, and the constant threat of PVP interaction is a heck of a lot more thrilling than the threat of watching your food/drink meter slowly turn red while you hide alone in the middle of bum-fuck nowhere. While I'm sure there would be some people who would chose to simply murder for the sake of murdering in a "realistic" apocalypse I do not think that it would be the status quo as we see in DayZ.

Read the end of that paragraph... What I was pointing out to the people who keep wanting to project mental deterioration onto those who kill, that doing that would be ridiculous and would in no way emulate real life as they claim it would do.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Oompa

[Coleman (DayZ) 14]

There is no set way to play DayZ, it is a sandbox game where you can do what you want to do.

End of discussion.

[Michaelvoodoo25 3120]

People would band together, there would be pockets of survivors (Note: required apocalypse would need to be verified, zombies? natural disaster? biblical? DayZ?)

They would try to achieve the former way of life as they are too lazy to devolve to a previous method of survival. If power could be achieved the community would grow, other survivors would flock to the area, which would give the impression of civilization. Imagine Firefly / Wild west like scenario. Isolated people would live of the land and loot what they could when they could.

There has always been banditry, whether the Dick Turpin kind or the mugger in the street this would not end, but would not have everyone in one area as a bandit. Community security forces would begin, protecting the people of the towns and roads of travel.

People would not all turn into KOS nobs, they would not last long by putting themselves in dangerous situations, Kind of beats the point of surviving doesn't it.

[Jamz 253]

I second you there, let me add a tl;dr for those who can't read through the whole thing:

tl;dr: You guys basically have never experience what it is to live in a social pact lacking environment. Not even in some regular 3rd world country where they'll just stone you to death for trying to read a book. I'm trying to make you understand guys, your 1st world bubble morals do not apply, for flint's sake.

True, no one knows what it would really be like, not even you. In that context this, and every other related thread, is moot. :) Dayz is not a mirror of real life, or anything else.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Jamz

[Bludy 324]

zombies will:

die for starvation

freeze in winter, unable to move

rot so fast to realize in summer

in our real lives, everybody know life and death about zombies, so they would die in one day, it would be just funny!

[teih 36]

I second you there, let me add a tl;dr for those who can't read through the whole thing:

tl;dr: You guys basically have never experience what it is to live in a social pact lacking environment. Not even in some regular 3rd world country where they'll just stone you to death for trying to read a book. I'm trying to make you understand guys, your 1st world bubble morals do not apply, for flint's sake.

What you don't seem to understand is that while there most definitely would be killing, it wouldn't be anywhere near as common as it is now.

How many players kill for food and supplies? Hardly any. Most players kill because they grow bored with the game, or grow paranoid of said players and shoot in self defense.

The problem is that when pvp reaches a point where it's just a massive f#ckfest, where people hunt eachother for sport, it ends up ruining other RP elements of the game. With social interaction being bordeline suicide, it limits the games potential of being this deep roleplaying experience which Rocket is trying so hard to achieve.

But surely you can't possibly believe that the current state of Dayz is anywhere near an accurate representation of an actuall end of the world situation?

Edited November 17, 2012 by Teih

[ManiacMike69 37]

This world needs a zombie apocalypse cuz it's fucked up anyway

[Itsnotcrazyuntilchachacha 13]

What you don't seem to understand is that while there most definitely would be killing, it wouldn't be anywhere near as common as it is now.

How many players kill for food and supplies? Hardly any. Most players kill because they grow bored with the game, or grow paranoid of said players and shoot in self defense.

The problem is that when pvp reaches a point where it's just a massive f#ckfest, where people hunt eachother for sport, it ends up ruining other RP elements of the game. With social interaction being bordeline suicide, it limits the games potential of being this deep roleplaying experience which Rocket is trying so hard to achieve.

But surely you can't possibly believe that the current state of Dayz is anywhere near an accurate representation of an actuall end of the world situation?

I entirely agree with you. I've stated in some of my previous posts that PvP can't turn into a f$ckfest just because, so no argument over that. We all want to roleplay.

However, this is a post-apocalyptic simulating zombie sandbox. We can't have people dropping BS all over these forums because they're getting killed and you know, that doesn't coincide with their concept of morals.

I don't think there's even one example of the genre in which the bad guys don't get their due.

You see what I just got in other thread. For F#cks sake.

EDIT

And this is what I'm talking about:

Dude, the bandit skins are there cause they can't make you hallucinate, in real life you would go nuts after killing 10 dudes for no good reason, so the only way of making it so that there some kind of consequent for that is having a bandit skin,

Now what the heck does this person know about killing other people. Are we just assuming everybody would go nuts / hallucinate over a kill? What has modern society done to us?

It's wrong to kill, we all know that, but that one about hallucinating? It's almost as good as Santa Claus, for god's sake.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Itsnotcrazyuntilchachacha

[daze23 549]

Years go past and virtually all supplies are spent

It would be chaos.

Humans murdering other humans for a tin of beans, Cos that means maybe another weeks survival from hunger.

the thing is a can of beans is a finite resource. another human is not. among other things, an individual will be at a disadvantage compared to those that do choose to coorporate

[HMS 115]

No.

[Heiduk 265]

[killing] It's probably not that hard, nor is it likely to cause very much psychological harm to you. We are made to believe that it is and will, so that we are discouraged from trying.

Tell that to the ~20-30% of veterans coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan with symptoms of PTSD and depression.

TLDR: The fact that we live in societies now is proof that the KOS mentality is an aberration and has nothing to do with reality.

Exactly. Over the last few thousand years of well documented history there have been plenty of instances where society and the rule of law have completely disintegrated. You know an apocalypse minus the zombies. Therefore if DayZ accurately represents how humans react to that situation it should be easy to find historical examples where a large percentage of the population went around killing everyone they encountered. Would anyone care to give examples?

[Itsnotcrazyuntilchachacha 13]

Tell that to the ~20-30% of veterans coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan with symptoms of PTSD and depression.

Oh well, I'd sure come back touched in the head if I'd been sent over to a country and carnaged on its population on the pretext of putting down a bunch of shepherds. Thing is, there're more than a hundred thousand Iraqi civilians who're not getting any symptoms of PTSD, depression, or about anything at all any more.

What the US does through its foreign military actions is probably the most accurate antithesis you could give to DayZ. When you KoS in DayZ, you can still you do it for a reason, that'd be environmental scarcity. Far cry, I know, but still a better excuse to put down a PJ.

Exactly. Over the last few thousand years of well documented history there have been plenty of instances where society and the rule of law have completely disintegrated. You know an apocalypse minus the zombies. Therefore if DayZ accurately represents how humans react to that situation it should be easy to find historical examples where a large percentage of the population went around killing everyone they encountered. Would anyone care to give examples?

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/haiti/index.html

This a couple months ago.

You really thought these kinds of situation were rare? You clearly don't live in Central/South America, or Africa do you. I mean, not by ten thousand miles.

[Bongofish 22]

Omg ur sad.

Oh sorry, forgot what community I was talking to. Here, this will make you feel better...

Hell yeah kos bro! I am freakin hardcore. Gotta be a man to hang out in DayZ son. Go back to Hello Kitty if you can't take it brah. You wussy little carebear. This game is all about the deathmatch bro. Hell yeah, I kill everybody cause I'm so alpha. Like real life bro, I'll end you and your family. Straight up brah. Hardcore! Hardcore! Hardcorrreeeeee!!!!!! Brah.

[daze23 549]

http://topics.nytime...aiti/index.html

This a couple months ago.

You really thought these kinds of situation were rare? You clearly don't live in Central/South America, or Africa do you. I mean, not by ten thousand miles.

what story are you trying to link to?

the point is there are natural disasters in modern times, where things can get rather 'apocalyptic', but never the less we don't see the majority of people killing each other on sight. there's always bad apples. there's bad apples when there's no disaster

[Oompa 25]

Tell that to the ~20-30% of veterans coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan with symptoms of PTSD and depression.

It's all about how you were conditioned during your development and what you were accustomed to. Everyone, including the soldiers was conditioned to abhor murder. If you go against this conditioning it then creates conflicts. Which is why I said that they did a good job, it is afterall in society's best interest that it does work.

If you read up on PTSD a bit you will see that it is not infact caused by killing itself but by the fact that we as a species are not used to the way wars are fought nowadays.

That would change.

Exactly. Over the last few thousand years of well documented history there have been plenty of instances where society and the rule of law have completely disintegrated. You know an apocalypse minus the zombies. Therefore if DayZ accurately represents how humans react to that situation it should be easy to find historical examples where a large percentage of the population went around killing everyone they encountered. Would anyone care to give examples?

No society so far has collapsed in a very short period of time. They all dwindled away or were conquered, so that the order was kept right up to the moment that a new power took over. So no matching examples exist for a collapse of everything in a matter of a few days (apart from where natural disasters killed everyone).

However, there is something called war that has been around for thousands of years and there were enough revolutions as well that show what humans are capable of when they feel wronged.

Wikipedia provides a list: http://en.wikipedia...._and_rebellions

In these times all those who weren't part of either faction were often robbed, murdered and/or raped. Rules/morality applied only to one's own side, and even then one wasn't quite safe from one's own side.

http://en.wikipedia....litary_strategy

http://en.wikipedia....eburg#Aftermath

And those are but a few examples where such things were comitted en masse. If humans are able to do that when ordered to, they will also do it without being ordered to if there is no punishment. I doubt that the Vikings got PTSD.

I would like to note that I never said that societal collapse would lead to KoS in general but instead said that it would lead to conflict between rivaling groups, which would lead to attrocities and might lead to KoS of all unknowns for a certain period of time if such conflicts escalate.

Since we can hardly rape, or do some such other equally pleasant things (imprisonment etc.) to other players, KoS is a replacement... I guess.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Oompa

[Heiduk 265]

If you read up on PTSD a bit you will see that it is not infact caused by killing itself but by the fact that we as a species are not used to the way wars are fought nowadays.

So your argument is that if we weren't human we wouldn't be effected by exposure to violence.

No society so far has collapsed in a very short period of time. They all dwindled away or were conquered, so that the order was kept right up to the moment that a new power took over. So no matching examples exist for a collapse of everything in a matter of a few days (apart from where natural disasters killed everyone).

I would argue natural disasters are a very good analog for the type of scenario DayZ describes. Somebody already linked to a story on Haiti that was notable for the absence of any descriptions of widespread KOS violence like occurs in DayZ.

However, there is something called war that has been around for thousands of years and there were enough revolutions as well that show what humans are capable of when they feel wronged.

Wikipedia provides a list: http://en.wikipedia...._and_rebellions

In these times all those who weren't part of either faction were often robbed, murdered and/or raped. Rules/morality applied only to one's own side, and even then one wasn't quite safe from one's own side.

http://en.wikipedia....litary_strategy

http://en.wikipedia....eburg#Aftermath

Humans are very capable of rape, murder, and torture. These atrocities are often committed in revenge or used as a weapon to control others, no argument here. However, this is very different from the widespread, untargeted, every man for himself, violence that is typical of DayZ. I'm still looking for historical examples where a large portion of the population went around killing everyone they met.

I doubt that the Vikings got PTSD.

Maybe, maybe not, but symptoms of PTSD have been identified in soldier's accounts going back at least 3000 years.

http://www.vva.org/a...HistoryPTSD.htm

I would like to note that I never said that societal collapse would lead to KoS in general but instead said that it would lead to conflict between rivaling groups, which would lead to attrocities and might lead to KoS of all unknowns for a certain period of time if such conflicts escalate.

Fair enough, but the OP and others are explicitly claiming that KOS is "normal".

[Itsnotcrazyuntilchachacha 13]

what story are you trying to link to?

the point is there are natural disasters in modern times, where things can get rather 'apocalyptic', but never the less we don't see the majority of people killing each other on sight. there's always bad apples. there's bad apples when there's no disaster

Do I really have to point out that survivors went on rioting. I mean, do I really.

Guy asked for a historic example on how people behave when there's no law. ''People'' as an sufficiently representative amount of people, like, evidently. There would be no civilization whatsoever if this reaction was absolute. All of this is obvious enough, but yeah thanks for pointing that out :thumbsup:

Exactly. Over the last few thousand years of well documented history there have been plenty of instances where society and the rule of law have completely disintegrated. You know an apocalypse minus the zombies. Therefore if DayZ accurately represents how humans react to that situation it should be easy to find historical examples where a large percentage of the population went around killing everyone they encountered. Would anyone care to give examples?

None of you have heard about the Rape of Nanking right.

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/nanking.htm

Edited November 17, 2012 by Itsnotcrazyuntilchachacha

[Oompa 25]

So your argument is that if we weren't human we wouldn't be effected by exposure to violence.

No, my argument was that the weapons we use and the sort of combat practiced nowadays amplify the chances of trauma since we are not conditioned to it.

I'm still looking for historical examples where a large portion of the population went around killing everyone they met.

During The German Peasant's War the peasant armies went around pillaging, plundering, and murdering everything and everyone they came across, even other peasants. They didn't really leave the people they robbed alive. More recent examples include civil wars in Uganda, Rwanda, Congo etc.

In Rwanda a large part of the civilian population partook in the genocide.

Fair enough, but the OP and others are explicitly claiming that KOS is "normal".

The only non-moronic way of handling KoS in a game would require a lot of work. You would need to let players organise in-game, build, control land 24/7 (guard bots?), craft, put out bounties etc. You would basically have to emulate as much of what people could do irl as possible. I consider solutions such as hallucinations/bandit skins to be suboptimal. Deaths would also have to entail a more sever punishment than simply loosing your gear. (I just had an idea for that, I might post it later)

And I agree, KoS would not, generally speaking, happen. What would happen is (1) people killing over petty crimes (I witnessed how some guy stole a hammer, the workers then chased him down and killed him. The police was never called.), (2) people shooting someone because they are jumpy (effectively KoS), (3) people shooting because they want what the other guy wants and he won't give it to them etc.

With (1) and (3) you might try to take them prisoner irl, but that doesn't really work in DayZ..Players won't let themselves be captured or robbed, they alt+f4 or fight back (since they can just respawn), so you have to kill them. As such someone who just looted the gun you wanted at the military barracks is fair game for a takedown, so is the fully-geared guy running through the forest, and the guy near your car or tent practically volunteered for target practice.

Thinking that you can get the gear yourself at the nearest lootspawn is metagaming too, you know. If you truly want to play a survival sim you have to treat EVERY LITTLE THING as VITAL to your SURVIVAL. Do you have any idea just how precious a sterile bandage is in that sort of situation? ;)

Edited November 18, 2012 by Oompa

[Heiduk 265]

None of you have heard about the Rape of Nanking right.

During The German Peasant's War the peasant armies went around pillaging, plundering, and murdering everything and everyone they came across, even other peasants. They didn't really leave the people they robbed alive. More recent examples include civil wars in Uganda, Rwanda, Congo etc.

In Rwanda a large part of the civilian population partook in the genocide.

So we have more examples of groups committing atrocities against each other. Although this is analogous to clan warfare, which obviously does happen in DayZ, I would argue it is fundamentally different than the every man for himself KOS mentality that has become typical of DayZ.

To provide one counter example look at the crime rates in NYC after Hurricane Sandy (29 Oct. 2012 to 4 November 2012).

http://www.nyc.gov/h...tics/cscity.pdf

Compared to the same week in 2011 murders decreased by 86 %, rapes decreased by 47 % and felony assault was down by 18 %. The only category that went up was burglary, by 11 %.

It's probably best not to read to much in to such a small data set, but it certainly does seem to bely the notion that we are all killers just waiting for the lights to go out, giving us the opportunity to take out that annoying neighbor.