Standalone and Helicopters.

[walrus2517 27]

I think your missing the point between choosing arma 2 flight mechanics and the ones in take on helicopters. It has been stated by the dev team that the dayz standalone will use the flight mechanics from take on helicopters. it wont be an option to use the old one. What hasn't been said is what difficulty they will use, maybe the difficulty will be selected by the server.

as for auto hover... That I can see staying in the game, it's available even on expert in take on helicopters. Sure it makes it easy to land and take off, but it is realistic to an extent. Most if not all military helicopters have an auto pilot/hover ability as a feature. Now there is more limitation to them than is portrayed in the game the big on is that it can only be initiated when your moving very slow and have come to a hover already unlike currently where you can enable it anytime and it will bring you to a halt.

You are correct. I wasn't aware the decision was finalized. I will definitely be trying the TOH demo to get used to it. I still stand by my overall point that flying shouldn't be so overly complicated only a few specialists are capable. As for auto-hover, thanks for the info. I guess my problem with it wasn't the feature as much as it not working realistically from the way you describe it, mainly being able to switch it on a full speed to come to a nice, quick stop.

...

There's your problem there. All the controls are on the keyboard. It's extremely easy. I imagine a flight stick would be nice if calibrated correctly with tons of hours of experience but anyone can easily fly using a keyboard without much experience at all. Too easy in fact.

I tried strictly keyboard but the controls were way too jumpy and imprecise. Maybe it would work better with a mechanical keyboard but there was a reason I kept trying with a mouse. My flight stick is just a cheap sub-$20 one I picked up years ago but it works really well in Arma. I really only use it for the precision movement though. I keep my left hand on the keyboard for almost all of the controls.

Edited November 6, 2012 by walrus2517

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

I tried strictly keyboard but the controls were way too jumpy and imprecise. Maybe it would work better with a mechanical keyboard but there was a reason I kept trying with a mouse. My flight stick is just a cheap sub-$20 one I picked up years ago but it works really well in Arma. I really only use it for the precision movement though. I keep my left hand on the keyboard for almost all of the controls.

True enough. I end up tapping a lot of the keys and still over correcting sometimes. Nothing quite beats a nice analog setup but the way the game is right now, you don't need to be an expert to jump in a chopper and fly away. A very little amount of practice will teach everyone how to land with zero issues. I just want it to be much much harder. But I see why some don't. Maybe they'll could give us an option for flight difficulty?

[Atom Quark 437]

I am an expert at every flight sim on the market and if you have full helicopter realism the keyboard will be superhard. I use a hands on throttle and stick with two different rudder options so its easy for me to control the helicopters in ARMA2. I would welcome, like the post above to have the option for flight difficulty because I actually fly better when it is more realistic, and with no autohover. But that is what my flightsims are for, and I don't think they need to be too hard for DayZ.

[joeoblong@yahoo.com 614]

That would make for an amazing game if you ask me, you need to repair a broken leg and a trauma center mini game starts haha I would play the hell out of that game

Digging holes for my new base would mean I can hide it a lot better than it is now. A rate of failure could be applied to everything with a mini game associated with each action you want to gut an animal for meat run your mouse through a maze if you hit the side you get less meat or no meat.

It was also talked about a long time ago about adding in durability for weapons and having them jam if not taken care of.

I was being 1/2 sarcastic, they would still have to make these things a lot easier then they are in the real world.

I have plead for us to have as big of sand box as possible. So we can affect the world around in every way. I want believable not realism, immersion not over complexity. We need a game not a job... If I wanted a career, I'd play any current mmo.

I think the helicopters could use a overhaul, but let's not get carried away.

[Bearded McGee 121]

as for auto hover... That I can see staying in the game, it's available even on expert in take on helicopters. Sure it makes it easy to land and take off, but it is realistic to an extent. Most if not all military helicopters have an auto pilot/hover ability as a feature. Now there is more limitation to them than is portrayed in the game the big on is that it can only be initiated when your moving very slow and have come to a hover already unlike currently where you can enable it anytime and it will bring you to a halt.

Actually, most helicopters have a auto-level and auto-direction cycler.

Auto-hover, as shows in Arma 2 (and TOH like you said) is very rare. The reason being that it's an old system that got more people killed than it saved (the system would often fail or make bad adjustments). The newer versions of the system is an auto-correction by feed system. Used in more particular aircraft like the Osprey. The development of the software for this system was actually the breakthrough that allowed the osprey to be born. Without an auto-correction system, it could not take off and land in VTOL mode.

It's very similar to what some airplanes use; like the EF Typhoon or the F-35. Without the computer making adjustments constantly, you could not even glide with them. They are too unstable otherwise.

Never piloted an helicopter on a simulator-like program, though. I'll try out the TOH demo.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Axelord FTW

[Faceman Peck 93]

It's not a suggestion. This belongs here in general chat. I'm not trying to suggest anything, I'm looking for a discussion on the general aspect of helicopters in the next rendition of the game. All we know is that dayz will use the flight simulation from TOH but it hasn't been stated how complex the flight will be.

I think it would add more to the game in such a way that if a group has a helicopter it means they require a pilot, not just any random person who jumps in and holds Q. It could open up a whole new "job" for people that play the game you have medics that run around healing people, now clans could recruit skilled pilots, or pilots could outsource their skills in exchange for gear.

actually you are suggessting something, you wanted to see the stand alone treat chopper flying a certain way. so yeah...kbai

[Tigger (DayZ) 24]

The helicopter flight model in current dayz is a joke. Any improvement in this direction is very welcome. I'd start by adjusting the power to real-world values, disabling third person and auto-hover. That would limit the in my opinion over-powered helicopter to the people that can actually fly them.

[walrus2517 27]

Well, I played the TOH demo briefly last night on the "Trainee" level but let it do the automated startup so I was just trying to fly around and see how it handled. I really sucked. I eventually got over the initial handling hump but couldn't figure out how to properly increase and decrease thrust without slamming into the ground every time I tried to land. Even just turning in midair led to me stalling, losing power, or whatever was happening, and just crashing to the ground several times. I worked at it for about 90 minutes but didn't make much progress.

The worst part is that it wasn't fun (though in full disclosure, I've only enjoyed a few flights sims in my 20+ years of gaming). I realized how hard it was going to be about 10 minutes in, and whereas I would've quit in the past because I wasn't enjoying myself, I kept at it to train for the standalone. But it was work and I already don't want to play anymore. This is a very frustrating development for me because I've really enjoyed flying choppers in DayZ on the newer maps where they spawn more often.

I'm going to give it a few days then probably try again but at this point I'm really, really hoping that servers are given the option of making it easier, if that is possible. I haven't tried "Beginner" level to see if it is really much easier so this may not even be an option, but flying a heli needs to remain accessible in my opinion.

Most of the people replying, based on the knowledge level of their replies, seem to be good pilots, so it's understandable you want things to be as realistic as possible for your own enjoyment. However, I'd kind of like to hear if anyone who doesn't already know how to fly a heli wants the difficultly ramped up exponentially, particularly to the point you have to put in multiple hours of offline training and keep written notes handy just to take off and land without killing yourself.

[terrvik 2409]

I really can't see no reason why the game should not be like this, and I would probably not even know how to open the fucking doors on a helicopter. Flying helicopters should be extremely difficult and repairing them should take some real know-how to manage. It has nothing to do with "clans" or imbalance, if you know how to fly a helicopter you should be a valuable asset to a group and maybe even teach others in the game. How awesome wouldn't that be?

[walrus2517 27]

I really can't see no reason why the game should not be like this, and I would probably not even know how to open the fucking doors on a helicopter. Flying helicopters should be extremely difficult and repairing them should take some real know-how to manage. It has nothing to do with "clans" or imbalance, if you know how to fly a helicopter you should be a valuable asset to a group and maybe even teach others in the game. How awesome wouldn't that be?

I have no problems making the repairs more difficult but I don't get the "realism" argument when it comes to flying. It's true I can't fly a heli in real life, but I can't accurately fire a sniper rifle, skin and cook a cow, or sneak around evading zombies either (*wink*), but I can do those just fine within a game. We're talking about a game where the theme is a zombie apocalypse, high grade military gear spawns all over the place, you can eat an entire cow in 2 minutes to replenish your health, and half the people just run around killing everyone they see. You can personally play in a realistic manner if you want, but it's still a game to everyone else.

My argument isn't against making flying a chopper harder (disable auto-hover, 3rd person, etc.) but against making it a total flight simulator so that only expert pilots or players that have friends that are expert pilots get to enjoy choppers. I simply think there is a middle ground between the current setup in Arma, which isn't too difficult, and a real world flight simulator where you have to spend a minute going through a full checklist just to take off.

And I disagree learning to fly from within the mod would be awesome. Why train there when one mistake kills you and destroys a heli you spent hours repairing when you can train offline?

[russthewomble@gmail.com 5]

It should be somewhere between TOH and Dayzmod - there should be a bit more of a complicated/slower start up, it would add to the tension of finally getting a heli and then having to go through the start sequence where at any time you could get sniped from afar. But maybe not to the degree TOH does it..

Flying should be easy enough to achieve although maybe auto hover is a bit too easy.

[terrvik 2409]

I have no problems making the repairs more difficult but I don't get the "realism" argument when it comes to flying. It's true I can't fly a heli in real life, but I can't accurately fire a sniper rifle, skin and cook a cow, or sneak around evading zombies either (*wink*), but I can do those just fine within a game. We're talking about a game where the theme is a zombie apocalypse, high grade military gear spawns all over the place, you can eat an entire cow in 2 minutes to replenish your health, and half the people just run around killing everyone they see. You can personally play in a realistic manner if you want, but it's still a game to everyone else.

My argument isn't against making flying a chopper harder (disable auto-hover, 3rd person, etc.) but against making it a total flight simulator so that only expert pilots or players that have friends that are expert pilots get to enjoy choppers. I simply think there is a middle ground between the current setup in Arma, which isn't too difficult, and a real world flight simulator where you have to spend a minute going through a full checklist just to take off.

And I disagree learning to fly from within the mod would be awesome. Why train there when one mistake kills you and destroys a heli you spent hours repairing when you can train offline?

To be fair I think all the points you bring up should be changed for more difficulty and actual use of real world skills. The game should be hilariously unforgiving and brutal in the difficulty department! What I like the most is the fact that this "game" spices "gameplay" up by not following conventional game rules. There are hundreds of game (which I love, just to point that out) where you can fly around and have fun times shooting things and make stuff explode and just because that is fun in other games doesn't mean DayZ needs it. Maybe this got confusing. I confuse even myself most of the time. :)

[hawc 63]

then having to go through the start sequence where at any time you could get sniped from afar. But maybe not to the degree TOH does it..

Pressing 5 buttons in a particular order really takes skill...

[Michaelvoodoo25 3120]

Make it hard as possible, be a pilot in the game, serve a purpose other than a bandit or survivor, but you need to learn how.

I hope the medical system rocket introduces will offer myself a huge level of difficulty also, as I play as a medic. Having learned abilities will make you a valuable asset in any team and will make the game last longer.

Allow steep learning curves for all abilities which use tools and devices, hunting is very hard to do right, being a driver isn't just press w.

[walrus2517 27]

Pressing 5 buttons in a particular order really takes skill...

Remembering the order they need to be pressed; waiting the correct amount of time between presses; and doing all of this while someone is sniping at the chopper you just spent 3 hours repairing? That at least takes a bit of skill.

@Terrorviktor & @Michaelvoodoo25 - Moving from helis to the argument on overall difficulty, I think you need to keep in mind that the mod needs to remain at least remotely accessible to the regular gamer. Arma was never very popular because the learning curve to join the multiplayer crowd was very high. Day Z was successful because anyone can play it. It was a great bridge between the overly simplistic CoD crowd and the overly complex Arma crowd. The game you two are driving towards would be an overly complicated environment requiring teamwork in all phases, too similiar to regular Arma MP. That would drive away a great portion of the Day Z player base such as myself who even after 175 hours still enjoy just logging in with a new character, collecting loot, looking for vehicles, and avoiding snipers.

I have no problem making some things more difficult. I love the changes on Namalsk with greater temperature effects, fewer food and animal spawns, etc. But I also enjoy Namalsk because the other day I found a chopper at the airfield, repaired and fueled it using supplies I was collecting with a tractor I had repaired, and spent 30 minutes just flying it around and giving a few folks a lift, finally getting to show off the basic skills I'd gained in the armory. I eventually left it with the last guy I gave a ride to and his buddy, one of whom said he was just an amateur pilot like me but could at least get around. It was one of the more enjoyable experiences I've had, and given all the stories this mod has given me, that is really saying something.

[terrvik 2409]

@Terrorviktor & @Michaelvoodoo25 - Moving from helis to the argument on overall difficulty, I think you need to keep in mind that the mod needs to remain at least remotely accessible to the regular gamer. Arma was never very popular because the learning curve to join the multiplayer crowd was very high. Day Z was successful because anyone can play it. It was a great bridge between the overly simplistic CoD crowd and the overly complex Arma crowd. The game you two are driving towards would be an overly complicated environment requiring teamwork in all phases, too similiar to regular Arma MP. That would drive away a great portion of the Day Z player base such as myself who even after 175 hours still enjoy just logging in with a new character, collecting loot, looking for vehicles, and avoiding snipers.

Again, I see your point but i do not agree with you. :) I played this mod since April and I have always had the most fun when it got more difficult. The first time rocket accidentally increased the zombie numbers by what seemed to be 1000% was great and the removal of starting gear was a step in the right direction. Does it really need to be popular? Do we really need helicopters to keep DayZ fun? Yes, they should be there, as should a lot of other things, but should everyone be able to just hop in a fly? I agree that there should be no need for teamwork all the time (in fact I think a lot of people on these forums get stuck in the Arma military mindset and wants to play DayZ with a squad mentality). In my opinion as much military influence as possible should be removed to give DayZ a more "civilian" feeling. It could be a game that "everyone" can play but if you want the cool stuff you REALLY have to work for it and not just by grinding boars in the woods to reach a higher level: you must learn skills for real and that is a pretty original idea for a game.

My ideal game would be no external communication (only in game), no global chat system, no statistics or killcounts, no external loot maps, no end goals, no tutorials or guides that explain the mechanics of the game (you have to learn stuff from the ground up, everything from disease symptoms and how to cure them to what plants in the woods are edible). There should be no way to restore blood or increase your temperature instantly so that if you make a mistake you pay for it. It's ambitious and probably impossible but it would feel fresh with a game you play for the experience and not for the entertainment, if you can see what I am trying to say. Like whatching a horror movie: it's not fun, but you enjoy it.

And just to be clear: I am useless and would die all the time in a more difficult scenario. :)

[Steak and Potatoes 13480]

If we complicate this we might aswell take it to the next level for the rest make it so you have to solve an algebra problem everytime you reload a rifle.

[walrus2517 27]

@Terrorviktor - Yes, I remember the forum the days after that update was released; when zeds had 180 degree field of vision, could spot you prone from 300m, and were still faster than you. I remember a few folks saying they loved it. I also remember 80% of the servers not updating until it was fixed (and a few that had upgraded reverting to the previous version). :)

I respect your opinion regarding the difficulty and know there is a crowd like you out there of the same mindset. And again, I'm not calling for a CoD level of difficulty. There are areas of the game where I would like to see the difficulty ramped up. But as I said, the success of DayZ was due to its accessibility using an engine notorious for its learning curve, so exponentially ramping up the difficulty will drive away hundreds of thousands of players who have loved this mod just so a few tens of thousands, if even that many, can get a little more enjoyment out of it. I have no idea but I don't imagine this is a direction Rocket aims to go.

Edited November 8, 2012 by walrus2517

[walrus2517 27]

Digging this thread up from the grave to relay my experience yesterday because of its relation to this discussion...

I logged on Sunday morning, my character near death on Namalsk, with just 6 or so other folks on the server, when a guy I had seen the day before and knew was friendly agrees to meet me, administer a blood transfusion, and ends up driving me to a UAZ I could have. We teamed up for a few minutes then went our separate ways. Fast forward 8 hours to last night. I still have the UAZ and am raiding A2 with another guy I had randomly teamed up with when my savior logs back on, this time on TS with about 4 friends. It turns out I'm playing on their server. He tells me where a heli is because in his group of 5 friends, none know how to fly. Even the guy I had teamed up with, who was an Arma vet, said he hadn't flown in 6 months and didn't recall the key bindings. So out of 7 people on a server, I was the only one who could fly.

I told them I was an amateur with just a few hours of practice, but that was better than everyone else, so we drove to the heli and I pulled my flight stick off the shelf. What followed was the best 3 hours of DayZ I've had yet, and I just broke the 200 hour mark this weekend according to Steam. I ferried them from place to place, picking up new friends as they logged on, dropping folks at vehicles, hitting their hidden tents, spotting heli crashes, looking for warm clothes, etc. We were playing at night, so at times the cloud cover would make things so pitch black I was flying completely blind (even maxing gamma and brightness didn't help). No one ever complained, even when I flew slow as hell and took 2 minutes to land because I was being so cautious (not only was I contending with the darkness, but the heli wasn't the Huey I'm used to, but some modern one, and you couldn't see jack from the cockpit, so I had to fly 3rd person, which I hate and haven't practiced with). By the time I logged off we'd hit just about every point on the map, killed about 600 hundred zeds, and had everyone well geared.

And this, albeit belatedly, brings me to the original point I was making. While it may take just a couple of hours practice to become adequate at the Arma flying mechanics, the majority of players still haven't put that training time in, and with helis being rare and people not wanting to die, even amateur flying skills are still at a premium. If you take that away by making the controls exponentially more complex, you take away a large facet of the game that people enjoy.

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

Flight characteristics of ToH looks way better than what I've seen / am capable of doing in DayZ/Arma. So I welcome that because DayZ/Arma helicopters are simply... horrible.

[walrus2517 27]

Flight characteristics of ToH looks way better than what I've seen / am capable of doing in DayZ/Arma. So I welcome that because DayZ/Arma helicopters are simply... horrible.

"Horrible" is harsh. I think Arma is a nice balance between the elementary ease of the mainstream titles (CoD, etc.) and the complexity of a simulator like ToH. Try the ToH demo on Steam if you haven't already. Unless you are already trained on flight simulators, it is very difficult with a high learning curve.

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

"Horrible" is harsh. I think Arma is a nice balance between the elementary ease of the mainstream titles (CoD, etc.) and the complexity of a simulator like ToH. Try the ToH demo on Steam if you haven't already. Unless you are already trained on flight simulators, it is very difficult with a high learning curve.

Sorry, Arma helicopters are still very arcadey, the only thing hard about them is their inability to maneuver correctly and you have to overpower the controls to the point where it wants to do some crazy barrel roll, nose dive or something. I can fly the helicopter just fine, I can fly it with/without hover but making realistic maneuvering is impossibly imo. Maybe it is different if you had a joystick.

I'm downloading the ToH demo and I'll report back.

[dallas 5195]

Never really checked out ToH, but I like the idea of real world skills being used in DayZ/ArmA. Map reading, navigating using constellations at night, sun at day. Since the helicopter is end game content, why not force pilots/mechanics to learn the start up procedures and advanced repairs.

I prefer flying ArmA choppers with mouse and keyboard, when flying with a joystick I found myself constantly over compensating. Even if the joystick made it easier to pull off tight turns, my mouse felt more accurate, but maybe I just hadn't configured my stick properly. ArmA's flight model might not be perfect, but it get's the job done, I flew fairly well, the designated pilots in our community flew fairly awesome.

Edited November 12, 2012 by Dallas

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

Alright, so my impression of first hand experience on ToH... Wow. Amazingly... not so good. I really don't understand it maybe.

Does anyone have any real flight experience or just from games? I had aspirations to being an Army Helicopter Pilot, I've got books and all ... The game seems to combine the collective and thrust, which are two different things... (but usually combined in one unit. The collective lever changes the angle of attack of the blades, while you normally have a handle-grip on the lever which rotates like a motorcycle grip to give thrust/less thrust) The Cyclic (stick) only rotates the rotor and depending on the angle of attack to move the helicopter forward, backward, left & right respectively. So to my understanding you would lift the collective while adding thrust to raise the helicopter, move the cylic in any direction you want to go. Then you would pull back on the cyclic to level off, and lower the collective to decrease the angle of attack and hover... in which you would gradually decease the thrust to lower yourself (something that is missing because they are combining it with the collective)

Initially I was flying around in free roam and it was identical to Arma 2. Except descending, which would either not descend or descend too fast and crash. Then I tried it on expert, and it was like flying without a tail rotor, the thing kept wanting to spin right despite me trying to use the left rudder.

Maybe this game is just too hard to fly using kb+m and you need a flight stick/pedals, or maybe I don't know what I am doing... but... wow was that a horrible experience.

I also tried the startup/shutdown sequence, the only major difference between this and Arma 2... and in total it wasn't anything special. (It didn't require me to get out and inspect anything)

In the end... It's truly hard to say what I'd want in DayZ. I am mixed feelings. I want DayZ to have hardcore elements that makes someone learn the trade and not just be able to jump in, at the same time I don't think the ToH is a very good option. Maybe someone can enlighten me on ToH though, and I'll give it another shot.

[ruecanonrails 24]

The biggest problem with TOH, is the controls. You really have to sit and adjust them to make them work for you.

They can be a little weird like you said the common issue with the collective and throttle. Depending on what set up you have, I personally use a saitek x52 pro and I am still fiddling around to get a perfect setup. I use the analog throttle as for the collective as would anyone but for throttle I have the three possible rotors increase/decrease bound to different toggle "buttons"

Of course due to the way TOH behaves if you find yourself in a death spiral or or just spinning you need to have 3 buttons configured for easy quick access.

Manual trim set

Manual trim release

Auto Hover on/off

When you are spinning first throw on auto hover to let the helicopters auto pilot balance you. Knowing which way the helicopter wants to move, turn off auto hover and quickly correct the spin using the pedals, once the spin has slowed or stopped use the manual trim set. It will set your trim to that position allowing you to take a quick breather correct more angles and use the manual trim set again to achieve a more level hover.

once you are level use the cyclic to angle yourself for basic maneuvers and flight. If you find you have over corrected a turn or you are starting to roll the helicopter quickly turn auto hover on, AND press manual trim release let go of the cyclic and adjust your collective to help re-balance the helicopter then repeat the first steps to get moving again.

If you leave your manual trim engaged while you use auto hover it will throw you around even more.

My quick tips:

Use the auto hover to take off and land (it is a somewhat accurate portrayal of real auto hover in many helicopters. It's more accurate to use it then it is to say it's not accurate to real life and refuse to use it.)

Once you get off the ground by increasing the collective slowly to gain altitude turn off auto hover and correct yourself using the manual trim set. If you cannot correct yourself in a short time use manual trim release and turn auto hover back on. Take a breathe and try again once you regain some lost altitude.

80

To land (abusing the excessively strong auto hover) fly to the area you want to land then turn on auto hover and manual trim release while increasing the collective when you pitch upwards and lower when you pitch downwards to try and not overshoot (assuming you are not flying around past 80-85% collective) once you have come to a hover lower the collective enough to get close to the ground (don't drop the collective to 0), once your about 30-40 feet increase ever so slightly to slow your descent down more so but not too much that you start to gain altitude, if you do gain altitude it's fine it will take a bit of practice to get a feel for the descent speeds. once you touch ground softly bring the collective down to 0 to remain stationary on the ground.

Side note, make sure the landing gear is down if the heli doesn't have skids.

TOH is entirely possible on mouse and keyboard but you are much better off spending $10 at a local pawn shop for a HOTAS set up as it will make your life easier. Like I said before you really need to make sure you have the three keys bound somewhere accessible.

If you want more info on take on helicopters check out the main forums for it, here is a thread with some feedback by actual pilots on things that should/have been fixed.

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?122626-Flight-Dynamics-Feedback-From-Real-Helicopter-Pilots

Hope that helps the trail pilots out there who are putting TOH down because of its learning curve which is only steep at the very start once you get the basics and know how to control the situation everything should be manageable.