Question to Rocket: Gun nerfing

[boxman80 964]

Attachments were only listed as an example here, attributes is really the best word to use. An assigned attribute could be anything from batteries for an NVG, through to the amount of water in a canteen (or the quality of water in the canteen), or how perished a food/meat item you have is. Attachment could also be the magazine that you have for your weapon, both it's quality and the amount of rounds that it holds.

Good stuff, I misunderstood the term. Sounds more like what I was hoping for on my original essay of a post. Cheers, top marks for a great introduction to the game. Go get yourself a bag of skittles! (Any chance of skittles being introduced into the game?)

Edited September 26, 2012 by Box

[dazza121 6]

as long as you can cut stupid instakills and whole server teleporting, i dont mind being killed as much by actually being shot by a weapon, even if it is hacked or duped. At least you have a chance to fight back.

Edited September 26, 2012 by dazza121

[Bakst 98]

We are moving dayz to a more object oriented reference system for weapons and equipment. For example, weapons will be an object, which means they can have references and attributes unique to that instance of it. So that M16 you are holding could have an attachment, say, that increases it's accuracy or reduces its muzzleflash. Or, your night vision goggles have batteries "attached" that get used over time. When you drop the object down or put it in your back, the information isn't "lost" as it would be currently.

That sounds awesome, and I also remember you saying at some point that this would also apply to rounds in a mag, i.e. individual bullets would be a separate object that can be loaded into various mags -- or traded with other players!

This simple change might not seem much, but when tied with attributes such as weapon condition, you could see significant changes in play style. Pistols, in my experience, were a much simpler weapon to maintain than a rifle such as the Steyr AUG or the SAR 21 (two weapons I am very familiar with). DayZ will replicate this with its object oriented approach to weapons. Catastrophic failure of your weapons is unlikely but your weapon would jam much more if it is deteriorated. Furthermore, for electronic items such as Night Vision Goggles or range finders, durability becomes extremely important. I have been experimenting with tying this into the damage system also, with good results... i.e. shoot someone in the head and cause huge damage to items on their head.

Having the possibility of your weapon jamming really adds a challenging new factor to the game, and requires players not only to find a gun but maintain it if they want to survive the next gun battle. Sounds like things are gonna get even more realistic in the standalone, with a myriad of ways in which players can die.

@Box, personally I like to immerse myself in the games I play and I wouldn't enjoy playing only for the best gun, so I agree with your concern, but honestly I think if people want to play that way, they can certainly indulge in that slightly RPG-like aspect of the game. It's a sandbox, after all. Let them get their weapons so we can plant a hatchet in their skull from an ambush lol ;)

[rocket 16567]

Sounds like things are gonna get even more realistic in the standalone, with a myriad of ways in which players can die.

Perhaps, but I'm steering well clear of the term "realistic" because it's a loaded term, we will be aiming for "authenticity". I.e. The experience should model the thought processes, feelings, and emotions associated with a similar situation - but it need not follow the exact "how it happens". This means we will model the tensions required to make the player make decisions that somewhat resemble those they might face in a real situation. It's really an extension of what was done already with DayZ, but with a proper team and genius engine programmers instead of, well, me.

[Bakst 98]

Perhaps, but I'm steering well clear of the term "realistic" because it's a loaded term, we will be aiming for "authenticity". I.e. The experience should model the thought processes, feelings, and emotions associated with a similar situation - but it need not follow the exact "how it happens". This means we will model the tensions required to make the player make decisions that somewhat resemble those they might face in a real situation. It's really an extension of what was done already with DayZ, but with a proper team and genius engine programmers instead of, well, me.

Authentic experiences... I get that. A subtle but important difference I guess. It's like with movies, where you "suspend your disbelief" in order to engage in the experience: it has to be believable enough, but not perfectly realistic (it's drama after all). Same with any good game.

And of course, I have seen the threads with rants about how unrealistic it is and how you should build in some kind of farting/pissing/defecation functionality etc. etc. That made me laugh hard. Authenticity it is, then!

[Jex =TE= (DayZ) 218]

What would be a bit more interesting, in the manner of the case, is an injury system that makes a bit more sense, such as, if you get shot in a certain part of the body e.g arm, your ability to use weaponry is reduced greatly, making it harder to aim. We already know that legs have their own system, but how about a more legit system?

Arma already supports this. You can get shot in the arm and it affects your aim - not sure if dayz implements it differently.

BTW - a lot of things mentioned in this thread already exist in the ACE mod (weight, injuries)

Personally once the SA get's released, Rocket should start a new zombie game and make a new engine and add all this shit in. It can be "Dayz 2" and won't suffer the constraints of the arma engine - they could call it the zombie apocalypse engine or something.

The Ai would be fixed to work as envisioned, the inventory system the same as well as the map (which could be made a lot more atmospheric and have things like tunnels, caves, sewers). A shit ton of more items to find and use, maybe even make it that you can set up workshops just to make things though this option can be pretty much limitless and become stupid. Arma is a great place to start, but I really hope that isn't where it finishes.

[Heiduk 265]

Its not the damage needs buffing its the player health needs lowering

Agreed, I think this would greatly improve the mod, but for standalone:

I am not spending any time at all focusing on re-balancing the weapons currently, rather focusing on increasing the authenticity using a few simple, yet wide-reaching, mechanic changes to "add" to the game rather than nerf something because it has an undesired effect.

This seems like exactly the right approach. The real world is inherently "balanced" by the laws of physics and, Newtonian physics at least, is pretty bloody simple. If you want to fire a bullet accurately at a target 1500 m away you need to start with a large heavy bullet and fire it from a large heavy weapon that has been well maintained and is deployed in a stable position. Many of those constraints are lifted for weapons that only need to hit targets 15 m away. The more of these mechanics that can be modeled in the game the more authentic it should feel and, as a side effect, the more balanced it should be.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Gun wounds are fatal!

Dont nerf anything just make the handguns more powerful. G17 is worst handgun.

I don't have the smile on my face when I find any pistols, it's just the same as finding nothing.

That's a shame. Every time I find a G17 or a PDW I'm happy. The G17's flashlight is great at night and the PDW can eat most mags. I never expect to use these guns on players unless it's an absolute emergency. Otherwise, the G17 is for headshotting zombies at night without bringing entire hordes down on my position. PDW is mainly a daytime backup weapon but still quiet enough to use on zombies when I need to.

The nerfed handguns came from an ArmA patch a while back. From what I understand, Rocket and Co had nothing to do with it.

[tommes 331]

I gladly pick up all the pistols. The more common the ammo the better. Makarov is good enough for zombie control as it takes down anyone with a headshot as any other gun and the ammo is everywhere. G17 I leave be because ammo is rare. Too easy you end up with empty gun while attacked by a "horde" of zombies.

(I hope this ramble makes sense!)

Yes, it does. Thank you so far. But what about the mod? Anything planned there or do we just have to sit it out?

And you didn't say anything specific about power of pistols, which was my original question.

(People, please don't discuss the sniper quarrel over here! That's not the topic.)

Even a crappy handgun is deadly in real life. You don't need 10 bullets with a makarov to take someone down. One shot in some vital organ or the central nervous system should do it. Pros double tap in the chest, one in the head. Done. While the final headshot is there just to make sure the body stays down forever.

The way it is right now in DayZ is neither realistic nor plausible.

Can't gun damage be fixed to old levels via damage factor? Just triple the value they have right now.

[rocket 16567]

You know I was starting to get a bit worried, as player numbers were down a bit as were online forum numbers... but every single post in this thread was not only constructive, but also extremely well thought out. At the risk of cursing the whole process... are the people we have on the forums here now the real serious ones?

Honestly this thread is very full of win, some great discussion here.

The end result really is that a major overhaul needs to be done once many of the features are in. I suspect that community involvement will be very important here, which would lean me more towards an slightly earlier alpha release without balancing with a VERY clear message to people that we want some community involvement in the balancing before saying this is the real "gameplay" alpha.

[christopherwright_75@hotmail.co.uk 109]

At the risk of cursing the whole process... are the people we have on the forums here now the real serious ones?

No I'm a complete troll

Serious note though in your shoes I would do the initial "balancing" in a closed environment albeit maybe a large one, doing it in a completely open alpha would be like doing it in the mod now your going to get badly skewed by exploiters/cheaters etc and thats before you take in to account the "buff this" and "nerf this" crowds shouting at each other............. hell just decide on the balance yourself this Mod was balanced till damages changed and duping went nuts.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Ooh. Well, be careful handing the weapon balancing to the players. Guns are the core and letting a fickle community sway their balance could spell disaster. I'm all for getting my hands on the standalone sooner rather than later but not at the expense of the overall game.

Serious note though in your shoes I would do the initial "balancing" in a closed environment albeit maybe a large one, doing it in a completely open alpha would be like doing it in the mod now your going to get badly skewed by exploiters/cheaters etc and thats before you take in to account the "buff this" and "nerf this" crowds shouting at each other............. hell just decide on the balance yourself this Mod was balanced till damages changed and duping went nuts.

I have to agree with this. There are enough whiners and trolls here to really screw things up.

edit: Then again, this isn't exactly the EA or Blizzard forums so maybe there's a bit of reason making the final call. lol

Edited September 26, 2012 by SausageKingofChicago

[rocket 16567]

Sorry I probably didn't explain that well, thanks to the online nature of the game we get a wealth of statistics from players simply playing the game. I sort of forget that you guys don't see this daily because I can ask a question, run an SQL query and pull some hard(ish) data on it.

tl/dr I think the important thing is that balance will be a fluid thing than will have to be adjusted over time, as new features and new content join the game and as playing mature and adapt to the new environment of standalone.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

That makes more sense. Basing it on actual data instead of knee jerk reactions of the community (and who screams the loudest) is definitely better than what I thought you were proposing. :)

[patrick_insanity@hotmail.com 111]

It seems that people are way too busy with the whole balance of the weaponry in DayZ while it's supposed to be a survival game. this does show how more of a PvP focused game it's becomming which is a shame. But before turning out to be a hypocrit, I must admit that I am more wary about other players rather than the Zeds themselves which is supposed to be the main subject of the game/mod to begin with.

Now while I agree with the topic that handguns are more comparable to the power of a BB gun, I can see wisdom in why they have gotten nerfed, it's mainly due to how common most handguns are. you're bound to find a sidearm in minutes when starting out near a proper town or village. I'd recon that making sidearms less common would justify it being unnerfed or making certain powerfull sidearms less common such as the M1911 and the Revolver. sidearms are currently more a tool to disable Zeds when you're carrying a gun in your primary slot rather than a hatchet.

When I'm in Cherno or Elektro or any other lifethreatening zone, I always have my primary gun out rather than a sidearm. Hell I'd even prefer charging at a player with a hatchet instead of taking a shot with any sidearm, unless you are certain of making proper headshots. the consquences of shooting a gun is already hazardous enough. giving away your location to players and Zeds. even if you succed in hitting this player you'll most likely only caused him to lose the ability to experience colors.

Now to turn the entire story. what Rocket said about weapons and other resources gaining artibutes seems like a great idea. giving items conditions and such gives me the idea that these items will require more attention of players. What I started to imagine for example is that you'd need to inspect food and drinks to determine if these things are safe to consume and what not.. may that be a can of food being dented would mean it's possible to cause botulism. or something like that.

And to finish my odd rant. I'd suggest something like houses being barred or locked but having the ability to be breached. this would require a crowbar or a hatchet or anything else that makes it physicly possible to remove domestic obstacles. Naturally I would recommend this for locations and buildings that contain loot with high value. or in addition to the above. containing items that have decent artibutes. Now during this process risks of being mauled by Zeds or shot by bandits would increase as I imagine this making noise. systematicly attracting the undead and logicly gaining the attention of players. this would making looting a more thrilling and rewarding experience.

Well that's about it..!

Edited September 26, 2012 by Pbremmus

[Zombie Jesus 723]

I was actually pleased with the handgun nerf, what is the point to finding a M240 when a guy with a M1911 can kill you quick in a close range firefight. Head shots are one thing, but shots to other areas should not kill you quickly and you should suffer from having common gear in the game.

Looking forward to item customization that Rocket mentioned, it would add value to the loot system so finding an M4 variant would not be the end of the journey for that particular gun. Also I would love an alpha that was not complete as a starting point, many of the remaining players are somewhat aware of what goes into game development and that the process does not yield immediate results. To save yourself a headache you might want to make it an invitation alpha until major issues are ironed out because a public alpha will mean a great deal of people will expect a finished product despite alpha being in the title.

Really looking forward to this game and I am enjoying the community involvement that is increasing what the mod has to offer currently.

[Bakst 98]

You know I was starting to get a bit worried, as player numbers were down a bit as were online forum numbers... but every single post in this thread was not only constructive, but also extremely well thought out. At the risk of cursing the whole process... are the people we have on the forums here now the real serious ones?

Honestly this thread is very full of win, some great discussion here.

man it's funny you say that, because just earlier today i was reading the entire 25 pages of this thread from back in June/July and seriously, it made my head spin. nuf said.

[Erizid 56]

If guns can be spawned with unique ID numbers, it will be relatively simple to squash duped items after they are spawned. That being said, if you've ever played for a long time and tried to find a legit AS50, you know how hard it can be to find. You might check 10 helicopter crashes in a row and still not find one. The standalone will come, when it does, everyone from the mightiest clan to the lowly beach-comber will be scrambling just to find something as simple as a CZ 550. Stary Sobor and the Airfields will become hotbeds again when clans regularly need to check them for loot. Someone might toil endlessly for a M107 just to get shot trying to reach the treeline. Raiding a clan camp will actually MEAN something when the looted guns and equipment are actually now gone forever. Sniping from cliff face wont seem worth it when you only find a M24 with one 5-round clip.

TL:DR We need Standalone!

P.S.

Broken Legs cured by Bandage + Woodpile.

Please also detail how vehicle spawn behavior works if you could. Blown up cars seem to never return from the void after a server reset.

[rocket 16567]

man it's funny you say that, because just earlier today i was reading the entire 25 pages of this thread from back in June/July and seriously, it made my head spin. nuf said.

To be fair I WAS a bit of a dick about that whole situation. But, I guess it needs to be placed in context with the terrible problems hacking caused us, and everyone needs to let off steam.

[puppetworx 474]

The nerf has actually been a very good thing for my weapon skills, but it does have it's problems.

[Epidemic survivor 8]

In real life a as5o would take off your whole arm if you where shot there so you guys want the pistols to be more realistic but to me you want the snipers to be fake, or in other words unrealistic. i dont get it. im defending the sniper and i dont even like sniping so that has to be saying something.

[NickM (DayZ) 57]

In real life a as5o would take off your whole arm if you where shot there so you guys want the pistols to be more realistic but to me you want the snipers to be fake, or in other words unrealistic. i dont get it. im defending the sniper and i dont even like sniping so that has to be saying something.

To add to that: IRL (I know, this isn't real life, but still), handguns are statistically HORRIBLE fight stoppers, much less brute killers.

There are many documented cases of a bad guy taking in excess of ten hits and surviving, or even killing their shooter.

The likelihood of someone dying, or even the stopping the fight from anything other than a CNS hit are very low.

Even with modern expanding bullet designs.

The main purpose of a handgun is to fight your way to your rifle or shotgun.

If you are depending on it as a primary means of attack or defense, you chose....poorly.

[rocket 16567]

If you are depending on it as a primary means of attack or defense, you chose....poorly.

Like you said, unless you can shoot someone in the head - its not so great. And I don't think a single member of my platoon ever managed to do that during our quick reaction drills during our pistol qual. I certainly couldn't, I'm a TERRIBLE shot.

[patrick_insanity@hotmail.com 111]

To add to that: IRL (I know, this isn't real life, but still), handguns are statistically HORRIBLE fight stoppers, much less brute killers.

There are many documented cases of a bad guy taking in excess of ten hits and surviving, or even killing their shooter.

The likelihood of someone dying, or even the stopping the fight from anything other than a CNS hit are very low.

Even with modern expanding bullet designs.

The main purpose of a handgun is to fight your way to your rifle or shotgun.

If you are depending on it as a primary means of attack or defense, you chose....poorly.

Well I assume these cases would be involving small firearms but I don't really know. I know that they use .50 Desert Eagles actively in Isreal to actually knock out car engines. so I assume it would definetly stop any person from being able to stand after getting hit. The Revolver and M1911 in DayZ are both loaded with .45 bullets which are highly comparable to the power of a .50 DE. even the 9mm pistols such as the M9 and G17 should be able to disable a person with a direct hit to the torso.

But from how it's feeling now when shooting someone in DayZ with a sidearm, it's a bit like this.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

A .45 is going to put someone on their ass if you hit them center mass at close range. 9mm's won't pack the same punch but they'll at least slow down an aggressor. Right now, I don't even consider a guy with a pistol a threat to me if I have an AK.

I actually don't mind the handgun damage on players but the damage against zombies/infected is kind of silly. These rounds should at least slow them down.