IF this was an actual game...

[rocket 16567]

To give a bit more background.

The current system is not sustainable in the long run because:

- Too many people want to play

- ArmA2 wasn't exactly designed for this many players, playing this style, in entirely this way (the engine is perfect, but there are engine bugs that require the source)

I'd like to see this become a quality project in the long run. The options there are to accept donations (say through a kickstarter), or come up with some kind of commercial model that keeps the game accessible, keeps the development fresh, and provides a dependable quality gameplay experience.

The problem with donations/kickstarters is that you don't really get control over your money. You haven't bought anything. What is to stop me, or someone else, blowing all that money on hookers and cocaine? Where is the structure? The project as it is, is already completely overwhelmed. Imagine if we accepted money now! Someone would be tempted, or make a bad decision, and then the whole thing would come crashing down and we'd all look like idolistic hippies.

I'm not really suggesting anything in particular here, I'm genuinely interested in peoples feedback. But I'm also a realist. There is no way the current system can continue like this forever and produce what I think we all want. But I also don't think that your average studio can pull something like this off. That means there needs to be a new approach, something a bit unique, and I think at the very least it needs:

- Endorsement of the community. Any success of this project so far belongs to the community rather than any of the DayZ team. Therefore its future effectively belongs to them. The mod was not marketed at all, it's popularity has spread through online groups, stories, videos.

- Transparency. What are you getting for your money? I mean, I can't even bring myself to consider opening up a kickstarter. This project has only been released a month, and while I think I'm a pretty decent guy people don't really know me. I think if this become something else people have the right to know what they're getting for their money, and they should have the right to complain if they're not getting that.

- Sustainability. I don't want to invest all my free time and effort in something that's not sustainable. Player's don't want to invest their time in that either. And the guys hosting the servers, at considerable expense, they don't want too either. So whatever happens, it needs to be rational, sensible, clearly defined, and not based on some utopian ideals.

The only thing I'm really sure on, is that paying for items. I mean that's just, I don't even know what to say. I just think that's a terrible idea. Microtransactions for cosmetic stuff? I guess, but I think that's sort of distracting. Naturally the project will gravitate towards the areas it is getting money from. Then it becomes hat farm.

tl;dr

We're coping. And by we, I mean the community. The people running the servers. The people dying because they climbed a ladder with a pistol. But we also need to decide what it should be, and we also need to be realistic.

It's a good discussion.

[MR DELICIOUS 297]

I think the questions you're asking are the right ones, and I certainly hope that you choose the right path to take DayZ. You seem to be very self-aware and introspective, which are very key leadership qualities (knowing your own limitations and humility).

I for one would like this game to stand alone. As somebody else on here mentioned, I'd prefer to pay the price I would for three "AAA+" games to play this game as it's where my time and energy is going. This game is a meritocracy at its very core, which is unusual for the current games industry.

Please don't introduce microtransactions, as they entirely null the meritocracy. Similarly, I would be very happy to pay for subscription to the game (ala WoW), as long as this assured me of stable servers, good anti-hacking and some kind of customer support. Hell, I just want to give money to a good idea.

Perhaps you need to look at a simple payment system in the way of Minecraft. Begin with a $15 fee for all new players (aka, not players who already have a character) and begin to save money. This early money could very well pay your salary (somebody would need to run the numbers) as well as cover other operational costs. I would then recommend following the Minecraft business model - as that's already a proven success. If the idea of a fixed fee isn't your thing, give people the option to choose how much to pay. Those who can't afford it will still be able to play (boosting the numbers) and those who want to buy you more pringles and pepsi will be able to contribute to the future of the mod and celebrate an already brilliant execution of an idea.

Doing this will buy you time while you continue to hone the playability and functionality of the existing mod while you acquire more staff and look for a proper VC startup (preferably a risk taker who trusts already proven industry experience).

[en1mal 12]

Game purchase only.

Studio Developed.

Kickstarter.

Benefits(like the game itself) for Kickstart Supporter.

Serious Rocket? Im concerned there arent that much

hardcore gamer anymore, but i would be satisfied.

[cm. (DayZ) 28]

-1 vote for you taking this retail' date=' Rocket.

You love ArmA, and I can only assume you also love it's community. Don't be a sell-out please. There's so many new players now thanks to your mod, and that is a brillant accomplishment. I imagine you're quite the golden boy around BIS at the moment. Maybe a pay rise is coming your way?

Either way, DayZ needs ARMA2, and ARMA2 needs DayZ (although it can survive without it). Many players are diving to kiss your feet, and it seems most of them are new players, who really didn't know almost everything that's in your mod has been in ArmA for quite a long time, in various mods and missions.

All the "Life" mods had unique items, character development, resource mining and building, persistant characters, etc. Saving to a database (i.e Jay2Lib) isn't new either. The zombie thing has been done a half dozen times too even way back in OFP. Many of these other mods have more features and development time than DayZ. New guys, do your research. Rocket, please don't get blinded by this wave of adoring fans.

I'm not sure why this mod has gone viral so quickly, or appealed to such a wide audience. I often saw the "Life" mods go through similar phases with high demand, but never anything close to this.

The ArmAverse has been around for over a decade now. Hundreds of servers have been provided and 99% of them have been FREE. Even clan-run servers very rarely demand payment to be in their clan. Even now, 40+ servers are being provided and paid for by players, not Rocket. This isn't like EA, that spends millions of dollars on game development, and then sells the game to make back their money (and a profit), while still providing free servers for players to use. The ArmA community has stepped up to provide these servers, support the mod, and new players. Please remember all this in 6 months, as DayZ development is still going strong, and ArmA3 is hitting the shelves.

For a long time, ArmA community has been flooded with more servers than we needed. The server to online player ratio was around 1:3 I think. Whatever it was, there was always more servers than we ever needed. DayZ popularity has just hit us all by surprise, but the community has still responded pretty quickly in providing servers, despite the very demanding requirements of DevTeam (full trust and access to our servers). We (The ArmA community) can cope with future demand I believe for DayZ. Just don't sell out please!

[/quote']

+1 to that.

[vpope 28]

Having worked in development myself i have learnt that in order for you to retain control of the creative direction of a project like this requiers that you remain independent, the last thing any of us would want to see if the work being taken over by an existing studio. The best scenario i can see is where you (the dev team) set up a new stuido (or work with an exisitng INDEPENDENT studio) to allow you to reatin control of the IP, and to work towards release of dayz as a standalone product. Obviusly this would not happen overnight, and for the time being i ask you to keep up the good work :) but if we are talking a long range vision then this is one way it could go.

[numerics 27]

To give a bit more background.

The current system is not sustainable in the long run because:

- Too many people want to play

- ArmA2 wasn't exactly designed for this many players' date=' playing this style, in entirely this way (the engine is perfect, but there are engine bugs that require the source)

I'd like to see this become a quality project [i']in the long run. The options there are to accept donations (say through a kickstarter), or come up with some kind of commercial model that keeps the game accessible, keeps the development fresh, and provides a dependable quality gameplay experience.

The problem with donations/kickstarters is that you don't really get control over your money. You haven't bought anything. What is to stop me, or someone else, blowing all that money on hookers and cocaine? Where is the structure? The project as it is, is already completely overwhelmed. Imagine if we accepted money now! Someone would be tempted, or make a bad decision, and then the whole thing would come crashing down and we'd all look like idolistic hippies.

I'm not really suggesting anything in particular here, I'm genuinely interested in peoples feedback. But I'm also a realist. There is no way the current system can continue like this forever and produce what I think we all want. But I also don't think that your average studio can pull something like this off. That means there needs to be a new approach, something a bit unique, and I think at the very least it needs:

- Endorsement of the community. Any success of this project so far belongs to the community rather than any of the DayZ team. Therefore its future effectively belongs to them. The mod was not marketed at all, it's popularity has spread through online groups, stories, videos.

- Transparency. What are you getting for your money? I mean, I can't even bring myself to consider opening up a kickstarter. This project has only been released a month, and while I think I'm a pretty decent guy people don't really know me. I think if this become something else people have the right to know what they're getting for their money, and they should have the right to complain if they're not getting that.

- Sustainability. I don't want to invest all my free time and effort in something that's not sustainable. Player's don't want to invest their time in that either. And the guys hosting the servers, at considerable expense, they don't want too either. So whatever happens, it needs to be rational, sensible, clearly defined, and not based on some utopian ideals.

The only thing I'm really sure on, is that paying for items. I mean that's just, I don't even know what to say. I just think that's a terrible idea. Microtransactions for cosmetic stuff? I guess, but I think that's sort of distracting. Naturally the project will gravitate towards the areas it is getting money from. Then it becomes hat farm.

tl;dr

We're coping. And by we, I mean the community. The people running the servers. The people dying because they climbed a ladder with a pistol. But we also need to decide what it should be, and we also need to be realistic.

It's a good discussion.

I think the overwhelming growth of this project/mod has given you and your team a great deal of stress in regards to the responsibility and future development, of course in a sense 'all eyes are on you' with this whole thing, which makes every step (especially financially) nerve wracking. But you need to realize that people have been waiting for something like this to come along, something this in-depth and almost cinematic in terms of experiences, almost every single person in this community can pretty much write a book on their in-game experiences alone. The extremes in emotion that this mod brings out in a person is like no other multiplayer game or mod available. That feeling of dread when you are uncertain of an outcome of a situation, or that feeling of despair or hopelessness when you realize you've run out of options and you're lying there bleeding out, or what about the surge of adrenaline where your heart pounds through your chest because someone starts shooting in your direction? or the realization that someone has been stalking you? This type of stuff is unique to this mod. You can't find these type of experiences in WoW, or SWtOR.. Or even Left4Dead or APB.

This mod alone has boosted sales through the roof, and that in itself you should be proud of... but like you said, you're a realist, and you know with it's current rate of growth, that the current model of this mod is not practical long-term. I know you probably have a lot of doubts and uncertainties about the road ahead for this game, especially with so much at stake, but I think you know when you think about it clearly, that this will succeed, as it already has in it's early stages. We're (The community) not leaving, and I'm sure the rest can agree that we hope you're not either.

[Gobbins 2]

You have earned you hookers and cocaine son.

Seriously though I think people know that their donation has a chance to be completely void, it is still better use of money than buying another episode of cowaduty,

[Derbysieger (DayZ) 0]

Pay once, play for-ever. I simply cannot afford a monthly fee to play a game. If I didn't have Arma 2:CO and BAF and PMC already I wouldn't even be able to afford the 25€ for Combined Ops this month.

I don't mind cosmetic stuff beeing charged for though. I actually think that it is a very good way to make some extra money. It doesn't put players who don't invest at a disadvantage and those who are willing to spend some money to look "cool" can do this.

I would buy a skin I like when I have the money. Simply to support the developers. But when I don't have the money I still want to play the game without beeing at a disadvantage.

[Freeborne (DayZ) 7]

Wow, there seems to be so many DayZ players who just got A2CO to play DayZ. The huge open world, the weapons, the sounds, the weather, the atmosphere, all that and more comes from ARMA2, not DayZ... I believe these are the ones encouraging a pay-to-play or standalone game, because they simply don't know how much credit needs to go to ARMA2, and not DayZ.

The mod's only been out a month, and most players have only been playing a week or two, so it's really too early to determine how long player interest will remain, or what future demand will peak at. Still it would be good to know now if you plan to go commercial.

If you go commercial, the only thing you can count on is that the ArmA community will release something else, for FREE, and I would suspect be a better product, with a more mature, long-lasting, and supportive community. Iront Front will probably be a good example for us all to follow closely and learn by.

One other thing. Why do you keep blaming ARMA2 engine for the performance issues and many other things (such as VON)? DayZ mission is generating an insane amount of errors for everyone, with vast majority being caused by your code. Missions like Warfare perform better with 40-50 players and hundreds of "complex" AI, that move in formation, drive tanks, fly choppers/jets, etc.

I'm not a coder, but the VON issue doesn't make sense either. We've had revive and respawn working in hundreds of ARMA2 missions with Direct Chat never being an issue. The error reports include "No speaker given for ". That suggests the way you're respawning players is probably flawed, and we're being spawned into slots that are not defined a name. Again, I'm not a coder so I am aware I could be way off, but I'm sure there's a lot of experienced ArmA devs out there that could help you fine-tune it and fix these problems.

[MR DELICIOUS 297]

I've had Arma 2 for a long time (for the game and for PR mod). The reality is that many, many big, creatively retarded games company CEOs are going to be watching DayZ's progress and will (knowing their time tabling) probably be having some serious boardroom chats about a very close future production.

I'm suggesting that they go subscription because it works (WoW as a business model has not failed) and players feel secure in their ability to require customer support or assistance (due to the high stakes nature of DayZ).

Similarly, I want them to make a stand alone, purely because if Rocket doesn't some big company will. I also believe hard work should be rewarded, and despite him using the Arma 2 engine, he is the first person to put this into action.

This is the beginning of an entirely new genre of MMOZSRPG and to confine it to a mod would not be the wise long term decision.

At the moment though, I'm really happy to play it through Arma. This should keep going for a year or two more, but I'd really hope Rocket actually takes this idea through to commercial fruition, as I'd like to see this idea protected and sheparded to further greatness. And Rocket's right, I believe, in that this is 15-20% complete in the grand scheme of things.

I still love you Freeborne.

[desrat 4]

One other thing. Why do you keep blaming ARMA2 engine for the performance issues and many other things (such as VON)?

...

I'm not a coder' date=' but the VON issue doesn't make sense either. We've had revive and respawn working in hundreds of ARMA2 missions with Direct Chat never being an issue.[/quote']

I'll think you'll find Rockets code exposes a flaw in the ArmA2 engine which has been addressed in the latest beta patch

See this thread for details..

http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=1462

[Freeborne (DayZ) 7]

Damn. Guess I was wrong. Apologies to Rocket, you're still doing a fab job!

[krappadizzle 0]

Let me buy it once and play forever.

I would subscribe for quite a while IF that was the only choice I had, would I prefer to? No, but I would and happily as I know the SUB model USUALLY means good support. Either of those 2 would be fine. F2P model is just not a good idea to me. It just doesn't seem like that it's a good fit for this game.

Also, when is the Kickstarter happening again? I can't find the link and no one has posted it.*Hint*Hint*

[bacon55 (DayZ) 2]

This discussion might be easier when we know how Arma 3 works.

The map is massive. It could actually maintain 1000 people without it turning into a gong show.

The question is can the engine support that?

If not that utterly changes the dynamic, and pretty much guarantees then need to maintain community servers, or a switch to a new engine.

[mkrrr 3]

i think monthly fee is the best way it can go

the project always needs money to improve the game. servers, advertisment

they need motivation to improve the game. to maintain their income fro monthly fees

donation is shit- that's all i want to say. it can ruin every game. and not because u have to "pay", because for example if there are 2 interesting (for me) games and in first game i have to pay monthly fee (10$ for example) and in the second game i have to donate the same 10$ every month - i will never play the second game and will definetly play the fisrt

i hate the idea of having advantages because i pay the money and someone doesn't

well i don't mind if there's the optoions of buying different hats in the game for real money or something. Till it doen't effect the game process. For example like in world of warcraft - u can but different pets or mounts for real money. but doesn't effect the game process at all, it's just "cosmetic" items

i don't like the idea of just "1 time buying the gamE" As i've already said. people need money for their work and they need motivation for improving the game. So i think monthly fee is totally ok

i will play this game definitly if it would be HARDCORE. when u lose everything when u die and so on. where u are afraid of every zombie that can kill u or a noob that can shot u from behind and take all ur stuff u've beencollection for 15 hours of gameplay. Thats the game i want to see

i know my english is terrible. It's not my first language - sorry. hope u can understand what i mean

[Jaleno 4]

Standalone purchase or dlc pack for Arma 3.

[Sooner (DayZ) 0]

How would you rather pay for it?

- Game purchase with Monthly fee? No, micro-transactions

- Game purchase only? Free game with buyable skills, no pay to win just pay to look better ect. car skins gun skins sell them 1$ a pop with 50,000 people playing #winning.

- Free to play, buy your shit? read ^ i mean league of legends my main game wouldnt have half the people playing if it was 20$ to buy

- Something else? I think the game is excellent ~ my buddies and i have a blast. There should be somethings one can do to not be stream sniped like turn off name tags turn off chat. My buddy streams this and rocks 1500 viewers but we get sniped all day. Sniping is fine idc but 15 people following makes for a bad stream and that doesnt help people see how fun this game is. I'm sure this problem has been talked about alrdy but streaming is such a huge way to get the game name out there.

Also:

- Community developed or studio developed? both

- Community or studio servers? or both? both

- Kickstarter? or not? <- whut ?

if you ever need beta testers :P or someone to stream/help get the word out there edward.wawrzynski@yahoo dot com

twitch.tv/lolsooner

[beeman 1]

I think selling the game for twenty to thirty dollars would be fair. No subscription because that's just silly in this day and age. Allow private servers, but not on peoples' PCs perhaps. If that's possible. Like...I don't know, only let people host if they can buy a server and pay for it, you know? Or just sell the server files separately. I don't know, somethin'.

That said, if this were to be developed into a retail product, I'd like to see a non-bohemia produced engine get used. Don't get me wrong, I love ArmA to death, but imagine this game in CryEngine. I'd melt with bliss. Even Unreal would be good, I think. Those engines not only look better, but they run better on a wider range of hardware, unlike anything Bohemia has made thusfar.

Also, you'd need to do a kickstarter. There will be people who will donate hundreds or thousands of dollars to the project just because it's so popular right now(and will continue to be so).

But using a different engine is a must. I prefer CryEngine because it's soooo pretty and runs so well. Just throwin' that out there >.>

[Mutonizer 78]

DLC pack purchase

Available on official servers (maybe a very small monthly fee?) and rated approved servers.

Main problem is that it's ArmaII engine so you'll be very dependent on it working perfect...which is not gonna happen :)

Not sure about Kickstarter. On one hand, consumers are NOT investors, these two roles contradict each others and there's, as far as I know, no legal binding or anything serious so that stuff screams scam from miles away. On the other hand, who cares about investing 10-20$. Overall I just don't like it, bit like micro transactions...sets a very nasty precedent I think.

[RIDEBIRD 0]

You have a great idea here.

- Game purchase, maybe some cosmetic micro transactions

- Studio

- Kickstarter (I'd chip in)

I don't know what you'd build it on. The realism and pure size of the Arma 2 engine is what's makes this so awesome, but it's frankly absolute shit bug/gameplay wise in many aspects. It just doesn't work. Like ever.

I'd suggest at least developing your own netcode as I can hardly never get in to servers, nor my friends.

[captslate 2]

Game Purchase - no subs, possible micro trans for skins and stuff, maybe even advantage things like a boost that lets you find better loot, but makes you hot pink or some shit.

Go with Studio, getting a team together makes any type of coding and asset building easier, trust me, I know (made my million on Iphone Apps)

Kickstarter, because damn, it's the way to go right now, gets your name out there even more, and let's people contribute more if they would like to.

Above all, listen to your community, just not too much, but I'm pretty sure you've already got that handled.

[Spherenei 0]

I'm thinking:

Free to play with microtransactions. Nothing that should affect gameplay any more than visual customization of your character. I'm also thinking that one should be able to donate for some reserved slots, or just for the sake of donating to keep the deveopment/servers up. I would also consider it to be a smart move to put it up on Steam, just for the sake of getting featured on a page that many, many people visit every day. Not that I consider it to be absolutely crucial, however.

"Community/Studio developed?"

I believe that you're aware of what you're doing, so I'm thinking mainly studio developed. I would say that listening to suggestions that the majority of people may agree with would be a smart move, nonetheless. More or less both of them.

"Community or Studio servers, or both?"

Something along the lines of what's been suggested before. If you can get a seperate character for community run servers, I would be quite fine with both.

"Kickstarter, or not?"

If it stops you from getting in the hands of a publisher, I wouldn't mind. I'm somewhat distrusting of publishers by now.

[mkrrr 3]

im really looking forward to rocket's post about his futurre plans. very interesting to learn what future he is planning for dayZ

sorry for bad english)

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

I'd go for monthly fee personally.

Continued support = continued payment

It's only fair.

[Tagert 0]

Just put it on kickstarter!

one time fee for me!