Fast vs Slow Zombies

[mike10019314@yahoo.ca 3]

slow zombies would work if the players had stamina that drops quickly when they run,

the big problems with fast ones in this game is that they zigzag and take indirect routes to get you, they should rush at you in a straight line or as straight a line as they can manage

[GrAnzSkY 2]

I prefer the fast zombies, thus making them more of a threat. If they were slower it would turn out into more of a Left 4 Dead/ Killing Floor game where there's just hordes of zombies.

[bjarnidk 9]

I'm definitively for slower zombies.. It's impossible to shoot them at this speed. I want to clip a zombie in the face and get on with my business.. Whether my business is clipping another one in the face or realize that I am royally screwed and book it.

There are WAY too many zombies for them to be this fast. If they would simply waddle towards you at 50% speed you would still come out at an economical loss by all the bullets you spent and they might even still get you since there's no way you can shoot them all just standing still. You'd have to kite them. So what if the zombies would no longer pose a serious threat? The players sure as hell would when they hear all that gun fire giving up your position. And the zombies would still pose a threat when you are inside buildings as they could block you in.

Also, they could simply circle around you. Good luck kiting then. Increase their damage by 3fold or so as well would balance it.

[Bal Sofs Tihl 7]

"peed simplifies the zombie, clarifying the threat and reducing any response to an emotional reflex. It's the difference between someone shouting "Boo!" and hearing the sound of the floorboards creaking in an upstairs room: a quick thrill at the expense of a more profound sense of dread. The absence of rage or aggression in slow zombies makes them oddly sympathetic, a detail that enabled Romero to project depth on to their blankness, to create tragic anti-heroes; his were figures to be pitied, empathised with, even rooted for. The moment they appear angry or petulant, the second they emit furious velociraptor screeches (as opposed to the correct mournful moans of longing), they cease to possess any ambiguity. They are simply mean."

That is Simon Pegg writing. You can read the rest of it here.

For slow zombies, you might observe a town or walk into a room and see that there are simply more zombies than you have bullets. Now, you have to figure out how to get through the room or get the supplies from the town without killing them. You might have to make them chase you, loop around and try to grab what you can before they get back. You might have to pick which ones really need to get killed and which ones you can work around.

They also offer a situation where you have to accomplish tasks in very close proximity to death and danger and with time counting down until you are eaten. They can be 20 feet away and you still have time, but you have to hurry. Even if you want to kill them, you have to get a headshot. Body shots from far away do nothing but waste ammo and attract more. You have to get their attention and then stand there...waiting...as they come after you...checking behind you...listening to them moan and cry out...until they get close enough for reliable headshots.

Also, slow zombies are the steadily approaching, inevitable horde. Like a cancer growing in your body: sure, you can avoid it and get on with your life, but for how long? Eventually, it will catch up you. One moment of carelessness, one lapse in vigilance and you are in trouble.

Slow zombies are also sad. You see a human with a face, pathetically lumbering after you. They look dejected, desperate. It creates an image of humanity in its most basic form, doing only what it takes to survive. Then, they force you into a similar situation - doing whatever it takes to survive - so you can empathize with them. Here comes all the "we were the walking dead THE WHOLE TIME" and "who are the REAL monsters?" psychological mind freak.

Fast zombies don't have these things. In a town full of fast zombies, you either fight them or you avoid them, because as soon as they see you, you or them has to die. There is no steady approach of death and there is no close proximity to danger, either. They are either too far away to be a threat or they are right on you. There is safety and there is danger with a big fat line drawn between. There is also no sympathy. Fast zombies are angry and violent. They don't reflect humanity's base urges, they reflect insanity: serial killers and mass murderers. You also cannot require headshots for fast zombies. They move so quickly that it just is not possible. There is no wait for it...wait for it...wait for it...tension. It is "BOO! ZOMBIES, MOTHERFUCKER!" and bangbangbangbangbang.

Fast zombies lose significant elements of both gameplay and horror to the point where you'd get the exact same experience from a million other types of enemies. Dinosaurs, beastly aliens, lions, tigers, bears, etc. They are all the same. You might as well not even use zombies.

Now, slow and shambling doesn't have to mean they move at a snail's pace. As people have discussed, those zombies require numbers prohibited by our technological limitations. However, zombies should still be slightly slower than we are. Slow enough to present the interesting challenges and horror that comes from having to do accomplish tasks in close proximity within a time frame (I have to grab everything I can before those zombies cross the town square), but fast enough that they don't need unfeasible numbers to be a threat.

[SkeletonPirate 0]

The running zombies are ok, but should have much shorter bursts of running.

Right now, they're ALWAYS on your heels, not giving you much time to turn, aim and fire, or apply a bandge if you were hit.

I think it would be cool if they just fell to prone once in a while, or just didnt run as fast (they actually run FASTER to catch up) as you.

[dallas 5195]

Slow zombies only work in overwhelming numbers and when in situations where survivors are forced to barricade their shelters to rest and sleep safely, becuase they can't log out.

[Bal Sofs Tihl 7]

People keep saying that if the zombies slowed down, much more would have to be spawned. Playing the game, I can see that just is not true. Here is my idea for how the zombies could be improved:

Speed: I would say faster than walking, but slower than running. The idea here is that if you are being chased or in a straight up fight, you run away, then turn and shoot, then run away, then turn and shoot. The zombies need to be slow enough for you to put distance between you and them, but fast enough that your shots have to be made under pressure. If you take too long, they will catch up to you.

Durability: They only die to head shots. Period. Body shots will make them fall down, the way sometimes do now, but they will always get back up until their brain is gone. This makes those shots under pressure even more difficult. You can't just turn and spray, you have to aim carefully and panicking will just waste your ammo and still not kill the zombies.

Danger: The first hit from a zombie hurts you: it takes away blood. The second hit wounds you: you start bleeding and you will die without first aid. The third hit kills you, regardless of your remaining blood. After 5 seconds, your number of hits reset, but you keep bleeding, obviously, and any blood lost from the first hit remains lost - blood regeneration mechanics do not change - and I would also suggest making one hit take more blood - I'm thinking three hits til death, five at the absolute most.

That first hit is like the zombie getting a hold of you, but you shake him off and end him before he really sinks his teeth in. The second hit in 5 seconds is you getting a bite or a big scratch. You still have a chance to smash his head and survive, but you are hurt and bleeding - first aid is required to survive. If you take three hits in five seconds, you've failed to escape and are mortally wounded. Perhaps it could put you on the ground with the hourglass, but certainly you will die without the help of another person. Now, zombies are dangerous! It is imperative that you land your headshots.

Numbers: This is the factor that people seem most concerned about, but the truth is that the total number of zombies is not that important. All that is important is the number of zombies compared to the available ammunition. I think, with the added danger mentioned above, slow zombies at the numbers present in the previous patch would be plenty of a threat.

Another bonus is that slow zombies allow for a mechanic where loud noises spawn zombies a little ways off and causes them to head towards you or starts a timer before zombies spawn near your location. So, say you want to search a building. You kill the few zombies outside, but you know the sound means zombies will be there again in a short amount of time. Now, you have to search the house and be thorough enough to make it worth while, but be fast enough that you can be gone before the zombies get there. The last thing you want to do is walk outside and find the house surrounded, making your search cost double the ammunition.

Additionally:

I would also suggest renaming the "blood" stat to "stamina". Even in the current game, I feel like it would be more accurate. Not a big deal, really, but it also bothers me when game use "energy" or "power" in cases where stamina would do fine. Yes, I am silly.

Another change I would suggest is that zombies cannot climb ladders or open doors (can they open doors? I haven't seen it yet, if they can...) but instead they wait at the bottom/outside and they never leave. My reasoning is that it adds an opportunity for increased teamwork. If you are out of ammo or in trouble, you can run up or inside. Then you are stuck there until you either run out of food and/or water or you convince someone that saving you is worth their trouble. You have to offer enough to make them want to save you, but you still need some supplies left over in order to survive. You also have to convince them you are not holding back, or they are likely to just kill you, as well, and take whatever you got.

Also, I found this thread wherein rocket made a post that contained this:

That and personally' date=' I don't really like the traditional concept of zombies - they reflect societal fears that we have outgrown somewhat. Modern "28 days later" zombies reflect the fear of infections, of things we can control and see, the loss of our humanity, the breakdown of order, nameless/borderless enemies. The modern zombie interest is really, imho, a social commentary on the fears of modern society. They capture nicely the things we fear.

[/quote']

I feel like classic zombies reflect all those fears mentioned here. Classic zombies are often still caused by an infection. A disease that we cannot see or control. They also lead to the breakdown of order and the fracturing of society and nameless/borderless enemies. I am not certain how fast zombies would do that better. As for the loss of humanity, I think slow zombies reflect that fear immeasurably better. They are still bloodthursty and murderous, but they lose things like fine motor control and the ability to run. They have the viciousness of fast zombies, without any spark or fire that separates a human from a stupid bug. They also allow for that reflection to actually take place. With fast zombies, it is all BOO! AH! BANG! and it is over. With the slow approach of the slow zombie, a person has time to see them. To see their violence and their inability to resist their urges, as well as their weakness and their inability to accomplish tasks that we take for granted. They are both frightening and pathetic at the same time.

These are my suggestions! I feel like they address the criticisms of slow zombies and offer the best elements of horror and gameplay from both types while remaining within current technological limitations.

[Abaddon (DayZ) 11]

I support the post directly above me with only a few additional notes and one spot of disagreement.

Look, the more that's added about environmental hazards, the slower we have to play, and the more we're stuck in one location longer. The addition of cold, the necessity of fire and hunkering down in buildings to avoid rain and temperature loss have all made it necessary to stop for shelter for moderate lengths of time. This addition alone makes the slow zombie viable at very slightly larger, if not present numbers.

I agree that the slower zombies would absolutely have to have an increased ability to sense players. I agree that they absolutely have to be head shot only kills. Where I disagree is with anyone that says they shouldn't OHK. The only reason I can sympathize with the notion that they shouldn't kill with one bite is how glitchy their movement is at present including their ability to walk through walls and closed doors and spawn right in front of you. Minus those bugs; however, I feel that the slow zombie that kills in one bite puts more tension on the player than the current sprinting ones.

I know that I'll never match the eloquence of the above poster, so I refuse to even try. But the one and only problem I have with fast zombies is that they inject furious moments of action into an otherwise slow and calculating experience. When I encounter another player, I have to immediately evaluate a number of conditions to decide on what I should do. Should I avoid? Should I approach for team up? Would it benefit me more to just kill this player?

I want the same thing with the zombies. Right now I approach a city, I go prone, I weave through and the only other factor regarding them that I have to take into consideration is where is the nearest enterable building for me to run to in the event of one of them going aggro.

What I'm saying is that I think it could amount to a more thoughtful experience when having to interact with the zombies, but it's also possible that it could lead to a less enjoyable experience. I'd at least hope that Rocket would consider experimenting with the idea since everything else he has added is forcing the player to think on their feet and to have the flexibility to adapt.

I'm also not saying that the game is too hard right now and I want easy zombies. I grew up on the old Romero rules. We're faster than them. We're smarter than them. Severe the head, destroy the brain. Bites are a death sentence. I've never had a game replicate the experience of trying to survive that... and this game is the closest chance I've had to date. I'd like to try it, even if it's just in a temporary patch that gets reverted in a week.

[izen 1]

Slow zombies + only headshot kills=awesome. They shouldnt be too slow though, and do some slight zigzagging. This way they would become an even higher threat than they are now, because you are mostly limited on your ammo, headshots are hard to manage, and you wouldnt be able to take out loads of zombies in just seconds even with a makarov.

[Pat_the_Bunny 4]

I've always preferred the faster zombies; I honestly don't see how the slow, shuffling ones would be any kind of a threat outside of an enclosed area. Even as they are now they aren't that much of a threat because they have to stop before they make their attack, so you can kite an entire horde and just pop off a few round when you get a moment, then rinse and repeat until you're either out of ammo, or the horde is finished. I like the idea of a stamina system that would slowly decrease your speed until you could no longer out run the zombies and be forced to fight.

Also, I like the unpredictable paths they take, because it adds difficulty to an otherwise easy zombie encounter. If they made a b-line straight for you it would be too easy to sit back with an AK and drop every one of them without worry, so I say the zig-zagging zeds should stay.

[Bal Sofs Tihl 7]

The only issue I have with one-hit-kill is that a zombie catching you does not always equal a zombie biting you. They might get a hold of you and you could wrestle away before they bite you. I like somehow incorporating that into the game, but I definitely am not opposed to making whatever simulates the first bite be a death sentence. At least a death from infection, anyway, with a possible option to cure and a zombie spawned upon your death. That would add one more layer to interaction with other players - a layer that is classic to the genre.

Also, the addition of melee attacks would be great. I know Arma II does not have them, or something, but would it work to rig it up the same way as the zombies?

With melee in the game, ammunition could become even more rare than it is now. A person could start with just one clip and a melee weapon or even no gun at all. Less bullets and an even greater increase in proximity to the zombies would be another element that is both realistic, fun and makes slow zombies more viable.

[Abaddon (DayZ) 11]

I'm kind of against melee in the game. I think it could get super cheesy and way too easy if it's not implemented perfectly. The way I see slower zombies working out is that they're only an immediate threat if they're within three feet of you... giving the player the advantage in that range has way too much potential of just ruining the tension.

Just imagine playing at night with one hit kill slow zombies that are attracted to light. Think about the duress that would put any player under. Light is all ready a magnet for PK'ers, but if it's slowly creating a death clamp on you in every town you enter...

I'd like to see the infection from a bite and the inevitable turn. I think it'd be interesting if it could be crafted just right. It'd give players the opportunity to scramble for a tent and try to hide their gear. It'd also give you a really entertaining opportunity to hide the bite from your companions and manufacturing player created drama.

[Bal Sofs Tihl 7]

I definitely see the potential for melee to get hokey (L4D, the first one, is a great example of how this can go wrong). However, I do not think it would be too hard to balance just using attack speed. Basically, I would want melee to be used for quietly killing one isolated zombie, maybe two if you are the Bruce Lee of DayZ. I would not want it to be used to fight a group of zombies, just as an option to use if you are careful enough. It adds more reward for tactics and sneakiness and puts players, again, in closer proximity to the zombies, adding more danger.

[Bal Sofs Tihl 7]

Quick point:

Watch the first minute of this video.

Do those zombies seem threatening? Their speed necessitates their weakness, which makes them not very dangerous. Slow them down, make them harder to kill and make them do much, much more damage. Then you'll have dangerous zombies. Zombies right now are too weak.

[Zombiestubble 4]

Another bonus is that slow zombies allow for a mechanic where loud noises spawn zombies a little ways off and causes them to head towards you or starts a timer before zombies spawn near your location. So' date=' say you want to search a building. You kill the few zombies outside, but you know the sound means zombies will be there again in a short amount of time. Now, you have to search the house and be thorough enough to make it worth while, but be fast enough that you can be gone before the zombies get there. The last thing you want to do is walk outside and find the house surrounded, making your search cost double the ammunition.

[/quote']

This, all the way. There could also possibly be a regluator so that while spawning lets say 10 zombies near your area, it also takes 10 away from places that don't have any players in them. This could make the game feel more zombie-populated, and feel like the zombies are actually migrating.

As for fast or slow, I say have them go about the crouching "run". It's slow enough to line up a headshot if you have decent aim, but not so fast as it doesn't feel like they all did Track & Field for a scholarship.

Also, headshots FTW.

[TheBowski 2]

I honestly couldn't agree with Bal Sofs Tihl's reasoning any more than I do. The psychological aspect is mostly overlooked in most - if not all - zombie games. Zombies shouldn't be bloodbags that you want to kill in the most ridiculous way possible, they should be reminders of the frailty of life. They are loved ones and acquaintances and people you'd see on the street. When a person sees a zombie, they should wonder what their life was like and what kind of person they were. Zombies should not be angry, they should be emotionless or slightly sad. The look on a zombie's face should be the result of a deep interior melancholy, it is the look of someone who knows that they've lost a great deal, but can't quite define their loss. Similar to the look of an Alzheimer's sufferer searching for the memory of their husband that died years ago. Their sense of loss parallels the survivor's quite apparent loss of their loved ones and the loss of civilized and peaceful society.

Of course, I don't see any feasible way to implement this in game or show zombies in this light. The slow, shuffling, regretful hordes are unfortunately no longer a feature of most zombie related media. I would be completely for any change that would make the fight against zombies feel emotionally draining. The slow moving, hard to kill hordes had an important purpose: invoking a feeling of hopelessness and inevitability on the survivor. With fast-moving, angry zombies, it's just a shoot-em-up.

I would absolutely love to see this idea implemented. Headshots only and more lethal slow zombies would make this game, though it wouldn't necessarily appeal to the unthinking masses that require constant stimulation and tangible enemies.

[dale 11]

making it purely head shot based will make it a complete waste of time, kids you don't take people down with a headshot, trust me if I put a torso shot through your spine you aren't walking anywhere zombie or not.

You all (except a few) have never seen a person being hit by a bullet obviously (I wouldn't want you to) but if you hit a person living or dead in the stomach or chest the bullet would blow out of your back a massive hole, nothing is getting up from that.

[TheBowski 2]

Dale' pid='53120' dateline='1337767197']

making it purely head shot based will make it a complete waste of time' date=' kids you don't take people down with a headshot, trust me if I put a torso shot through your spine you aren't walking anywhere zombie or not.

You all (except a few) have never seen a person being hit by a bullet obviously (I wouldn't want you to) but if you hit a person living or dead in the stomach or chest the bullet would blow out of your back a massive hole, nothing is getting up from that.

[/quote']

Perhaps you don't understand the concept of a zombie.

[Bal Sofs Tihl 7]

Dale' pid='53120' dateline='1337767197']

making it purely head shot based will make it a complete waste of time' date=' kids you don't take people down with a headshot, trust me if I put a torso shot through your spine you aren't walking anywhere zombie or not.

You all (except a few) have never seen a person being hit by a bullet obviously (I wouldn't want you to) but if you hit a person living or dead in the stomach or chest the bullet would blow out of your back a massive hole, nothing is getting up from that.

[/quote']

It is not that simple.

The factors governing the incapacitation of the human target are many, and variable. The actual destruction caused by any small arms projectile is too small in magnitude relative to the mass and complexity of the target. If a bullet destroys about 2 ounces of tissue in its passage through the body, that represents 0.07 of one percent of the mass of a 180 pound man. Unless the tissue is located within the critical areas of the central nervous system, it is physiologically insufficient to force incapacitation upon an unwilling target.

That is from here and it contains a lot of additional analysis of the effect a bullet can have on the human body. There are also numerous anecdotal accounts of bullet wounds not dropping people. Reading Medal of Honor citations will provide an incredible number of them.

That is all people just effected by adrenaline. Add in a virus that makes a zombie not feel pain, not even recognize he has been shot, and gives him added staying power, and well-placed shots are going to be a necessity.

This all has not even considered any fictional elements one might want to include in a mythos that already involves a zombie apocalypse...

[Augusto (DayZ) 3]

I agree that something could be done to improve zombies at one point, I'm not quite sure what I would like zombies to be, the slow zombie that requires a headshot doesn't quite seem right, but I agree that the running zombies are not enough of a threat and make the game to arcade like

Besides the fact tha they never stop chasing forces players to exploit the bugs in the AI which kind of ruins the game a bit for me

Anyways dayZ is still the greatest mod ever and considering its still in alpha stage the potential for this mod is just stupidly high

[Bat (DayZ) 230]

I would like to see zombies hesitate when you shoot a bullet or kill one of them, like if they suddenly took conscience of death for a second. That would last a second, just enough time to start running/reloading. On the other hand, zombies should deal more damage, and maybe be more resistant to bullets, like stated above, and a little bit slower.

That would make combat more strategic and intense.

Just my opinion on this, I don't really know nothing about real fire arms, and even less about real zombies. ahah.

[Oddball_E8 1]

Slow or Fast Zombies? Which is Better?

I think slow zombies better' date=' because to be more specific slow moving zombies are those that we see in the old George A Romero movies like Night of the Living Dead, Dawn of the Dead, and Day of the Dead. Fast moving zombies we got to see in 28 days later, 28 weeks later, and the remake of Dawn of the Dead. I personally prefer the walking dead style of slow zombies. I find it too unrealistic that anyone could survive with fast moving zombies around. I mean they would just spread too quickly and no one would have any chance of survival.

[/quote']

Aaah, this is something i get into discussions about with my friend quite often... he also thinks there should only be slow zombies in games (and movies) and calls the fast zombies a heresy to the genre.

BUT, as ive explained to him many many times, the thing that makes slow zeds dangerous is the sheer number of them combined with the fact that only headshots kill them and that they never ever stop.

Seeing as how we cannot implement any of those things in the game, we would have to go with fast ones to make it even remotely dangerous for players.

Just look at how easy it is to kill zeds once you get indoors...

now, if we were facing hundreds, if not thousands, of zombies in each town, then it would be different... and if they just followed you enlessly (even if you logged off, they would still keep going in your direction) THEN they would be a bit more dangerous.

If we could also combine it with the "headshots only" part, it would be awesome.

But we cant, so we are stuck with quick zeds.

[Bal Sofs Tihl 7]

You should read the thread. Those issues have already been discussed.

[gray1107 (DayZ) 0]

ACE fatigue + slow zeds + headshots = win.

That is all.

[mbricochet 1]

Zombies need some serious work.

Perhaps reducing their speed by 20%, increasing their health considerably, and making them more responsive to sound would provide a capable balance of threat and play-ability.

Also in order to combat a nerf in their individual threat by reducing their speed; the zombies should respond much more aggressively to weapon fire and the sounds of other zombies on the attack. Not to mention random gunfire; such as PVP.

Having zombies tougher zombies respond more aggressively to fighting also makes PVP more of a challenge. Bandits would be less tempted to just brazenly kill.

A major issue is that zombies despawn if the player they are chasing "quits" which is a very common tactic apparently. Two players move into a town, and one player runs through the town gathering all the zombies. Then runs for the hills. The second player moves into town, and the second player quits out, purging all the chasing zombies. Then reconnects and they loot the town. Zombies should not despawn in such an event. How ever I am unsure on how it would be workable with out overloading the zombie population...

The current issue is that they are simply to spastic. It kills immersion. They must move steadily and be consistent.

Either they must be optimized to function at their current speed, or their speed must be reduced and other measures taken to keep them threatening.