The tactical significance of sniper rifles, accumulated rebuttals and why they're here to stay

[Soviet Tiger 7]

Very well stated. I will be sure to show this to anyone who doubts the presence of High Precision/High Power rifles.

You have my beans.

[thefonztm@gmail.com 86]

Ok, so like I said earlier, I've got a grievance that you haven't addressed yet. Preface, my numbers are pulled out of my ass, but my point is solid. Numbers only serve to illustrate my point, which I believe anyone with real shooting experience will agree with.

Simply put, I feel that there is no way in hell you could expect to find a sniper rifle lying on the ground during a zombie apocalypse that would be pin point accurate at 500m+ etc...... Even more unbelievable to recover one from a crashed helicopter that is pinpoint accurate. You would reasonably expect that the scope is not dead on. Bumping the scope fractions of a millimeter out of position would send rounds ~30m off target at long ranges. Not to mention the time and effort it takes to make a rifle accurate and maintain that accuracy at those ranges...... As it stands, if you find a sniper rifle, all you need to do is account for bullet drop and you are a practically Annie Oakley.....

Maybe its just a limitation of the game..... but these perfectly accurate rifles bug me.... IMO, it would be nice to see some error in them correctable of course. If you want a good rifle, take the time to sight it in.

As far as non-sniper rifles.... iron sights are rather hard to screw up most of the time. The guns with optics however would be vulnerable to the same problems of scoped rifles, to a lesser degree since they are inherently not designed for such a level of accuracy. I wouldn't mind if the same principles were applied to anything with attached optics. Instead of simply acquiring a weapon with great sights, you would need to put a little time in getting it set up properly.

ZedsDeadBaby, if you wouldn't mind giving this some consideration I'd like to hear your opinion. Mind you, I understand there are limitations to what is feasible/fun for a game. Probably why I have little expectation of this going into the game at any point, but its still a slight peeve to me.

Wind would be a nice addition to raise the skill ceiling on sniper rifles too.

Edited August 8, 2012 by thefonz

[xeaglenec 13]

Ohk weapons should belong in cod, bf, and other shit games. Dayz is not about counting frags

[qazdar 1]

in the real world. wars are not "balanced" why should this game be?

Because,this is a game and the two sides needs to be filled !

[mactic 92]

Hey OP, would you ever agree with any of the arguments or is it your aim to be alwayst agains them?

Edited August 8, 2012 by MACtic

[qazdar 1]

In the real world, sniper rifles aren't one-shot/one-kills

Then go get shot by a .50 in real life and will talk about your feedback after !

[oZiix 45]

Excellent argument OHK don't belong in dayz cause they don't belong in dayz rofl.

Where do you people come from.

Op already said its not about realism you can't play realism card because it's a zombie apocalypse which is not real. This is rockets version of the apocalypse.

Capcoms version has a guy named wesker who can teleport and umbrella created the apocalypse.

Capcoms other version has you running around the mall and shit running zombies over with shopping carts and chainsaws.

Valve has special zombies like screamers.

Etc. etc.

Nobody knows what would really be where or what so read the op and drop the realism argument it doesnt work. What makes it realistic is ARMA's engine it is realistic gameplay COMPONENT. Dayz is not meant to be the most realistic shooter ever that's what ARMA attempts to do.

No skill argument is terrible. Shooting someone with any gun in this game isn't high on the difficulty scale if you are being honest with yourself. Guns in this game have different velocities as50 is the highest if I'm not mistaken so bullet drop isn't as bad. Get over it.

Singling out 50.cals is so dumb because if you remove them snipers will still be doing the same thing just with less powerful guns.

[oZiix 45]

The OP is about people arguing to remove them. Not about balancing them. Not about them being more realistic ala BazBake with his breakdown of real ballistics that have nothing to do with the op.

[derrida (DayZ) 18]

The problem isn't that snipers exist in the game (although their power and accuracy is highly unrealistic, given that the engine is based off of a MILITARY SIMULATOR), but that zombies at this point are just too easy. If zombies could actually, once in a while, pose a threat to experienced players, more than just a irritation, then people might actually feel the need to work together rather than killing each other for fun. Note: I do not want this to be LFD

[oZiix 45]

What? So in a thread about sniper rifles specifically you come up with complaining about zombies?

-----> that way to zombie rant thread

[oZiix 45]

Well are you not more skilled if you can build a sturdy house faster than someone with better tools? giving your self a handicap and still winning proves you have more skill, it always has.

tu

Now I don't see the reason to have a m107/AS50, but not have armor or allow us to set up cover (camo nets).

By this token CoD/halo or any game that allows players to regen health is more skilled than DayZ cause it's harder to kill your opponent. Is that what your saying?

[sostronk 334]

If the fixed the duping expoits and script spawning of weapons, every man and his dog (in next patch) wouldn't have one. The problem is anyone can easily pick up sniper rifles, scripters/dupers would be responsible for a large majority of these high end weapons.

[turdferguson (DayZ) 2]

BazBake, you obviously don't know anything about ballistics or terminal performance. Stop acting like an expert.

Edited August 8, 2012 by turdferguson

[Virfortis 111]

Your argument is that the best way to counter a sniper is to have a sniper, a weapon that, legitimately obtained, is super rare. Being in Cherno and getting shot from someone that does not have the same worries as you IS a problem. I ask this to every sniper and they tell me the same thing: They snipe because they don't have to deal with zeds. Hell, I snipe so I don't have to deal with zeds.Once zombies, a potential interruption, are eliminated, there is simply you and another player that is bogged down. It's a gun that eliminates more than half of the shooting factors, and while realistic, is about as authentic as laser guns in a WW2 game. (yeah yeah wolfenstein, whatever)

To further counter this argument, you're saying that to avoid a sniper means to not go into a city, which is the only place where there is actual gameplay aside from running. Then I ask, what is the whole point? Is DayZ really such a game that to counter the easy mode (and forget about the no skill argument, pre planning is a pittance in this map, I speak from experience) is to take the game from survival to walking sim. We're not talking 10-20 minutes here, I've taken upwards from an hour, even if I admit I was being very slow. In that hour, a sniper logged in, already setup mind you, and started popping peeps.

Last, snipers do not shoot unless they have to. Your story about being saved by overwatch is precisely what tactical sniping is, but they're not a kill farmer, they're in a team on defense. The biggest gripe is someone that packs 6 mags of AS50 and sits up on a hill raking in kills for lulz, gaining nothing but imaginary points for doing so. A concept which DayZ was fundamentally against, but now seems to almost support. I thought we were all tired of the gung-ho guns and guts shoot em up, but if we're supporting this kind of behavior, clearly we're not. This is not tactical gameplay, this is a shooting gallery.

So, yes, if a sniper is in a team and playing the defensive/protective role, that's what they were designed to do. Yes they can play tactical offensive as well, but in any authentic situation? A sniper doesn't worry about how many kills, but who they kill. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just tossing my opinion out there, no matter who hates it.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Virfortis

[RSOblivioN 8]

If you can't think your way around a sniper without a sniper you need to learn to be more careful. Escaping a sniper is pretty easy unless they are indeed a crack shot. Playing solo is asking to be shot unless you adjust your playstyle to playing solo (basically no cars, just grab the best equipment you can find and avoid cities, other than bandit hunting if you are good enough).

Playing as a group snipers really become far more effective. They can be used in their role as a cover weapon, with good coms and an L85A2 AWS user you can have a very effective sniper squad backing up an assault squad. Technically a recon (sniper) team should be a 3 man team with one as point with L85A2, and a two man sniper team with one having DMR/M4A1/M16 ACOG/M16 M203/Mk48 Mod 0 and Rangefinder, the other having an AS50/M107/M24/SVD. That is a really devastating combo, but it requires teamwork and knowledge to work well.

Two 3 man squads in DayZ can take on numerous opponents of less well organised players. This is the problem most people are facing, excluding hackers, glitches and the general ArmA 2 engine ;)

[tigrisjk 2]

Anyone who thinks sniper rifles are the 'easiest to use' clearly hasn't picked up the Mk48 and taken it for a spin. That Red Dot will guarantee anything within 600m of you dying a painful lead-and-tracer-filled death. My AS50 (well, if I hadn't just lost it thanks to being hit by a hacker with the Honeymooner hack) on the other hand requires that I pick a spot, range my targets, and lead my target.

Try hitting a sprinting target with a sniper rifle in one shot at 600m. You'll have an easier time with an MG or AR.

And the one-shot kill argument is facile. Almost all the guns in this game kill in 1-2 hits, and most of them can follow up a shot far easier than you can with the sniper rifles. If you didn't want to play a sim, maybe you have no business playing around with ArmA.

I'm not saying that snipers picking off newbies in Electro or Cherno aren't assholes. But then again, yeah, we're assholes. That's the kind of freedom you get to have in a game like this.

Edited August 8, 2012 by TigrisJK

[Virfortis 111]

Two 3 man squads in DayZ can take on numerous opponents of less well organised players. This is the problem most people are facing, excluding hackers, glitches and the general ArmA 2 engine ;)

This is another core issue. It's not very authentic that I am forced to go outside of the game world and join people with third party VOIP/Add-ons/Maps etc. just to be expected to survive for some time. DayZ's greatest moments don't happen anymore, the moments where players bumped into each other and were happy to just see another lively face.

Metagaming really kills the immersion and authenticity of the game, and I know I'll hear a lot of fanboy bitching about that, about how "OMG it's a game!" To that, I point to STALKER, the most immersive survival type series out there that I know of. That is what we should be aiming for, not Halo:Zombie edition where everyone has the sniper rifle and hides up in "that" spot because it's zed free for easier kills.

Less CoD, more STALKER, that's what the problem with DayZ is. We need people willing to play as Wolf, the Trader, the Scientists, instead of the military day in and day out. Think about it, would STALKER have really been that good if everything was hostile?

I'm not saying that snipers picking off newbies in Electro or Cherno aren't assholes. But then again, yeah, we're assholes. That's the kind of freedom you get to have in a game like this.

It's funny how we talk about America being free and yet, its society has all but crumbled. It seems people can't handle the responsibility of freedom.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Virfortis

[oZiix 45]

This is another core issue. It's not very authentic that I am forced to go outside of the game world and join people with third party VOIP/Add-ons/Maps etc. just to be expected to survive for some time. DayZ's greatest moments don't happen anymore, the moments where players bumped into each other and were happy to just see another lively face.

Metagaming really kills the immersion and authenticity of the game, and I know I'll hear a lot of fanboy bitching about that, about how "OMG it's a game!" To that, I point to STALKER, the most immersive survival type series out there that I know of. That is what we should be aiming for, not Halo:Zombie edition where everyone has the sniper rifle and hides up in "that" spot because it's zed free for easier kills.

Less CoD, more STALKER, that's what the problem with DayZ is. We need people willing to play as Wolf, the Trader, the Scientists, instead of the military day in and day out. Think about it, would STALKER have really been that good if everything was hostile?

It's funny how we talk about America being free and yet, its society has all but crumbled. It seems people can't handle the responsibility of freedom.

DayZ this is your story is what read at the title.

I didn't know rocket worked on Stalker? How did he mess up the idea on DayZ?

Oh he didn't work on stalker and the people that made stalker presented you with there idea of apocalypse.

Why do people keep comparing. You are playing what rocket wants not what Chernobyl diaries game wants. If u want stalker boot it up.

[GlassArrows 11]

@the kid who said balance>realism. You know this is milsim right?

[slonlo 43]

It's funny how we talk about America being free and yet, its society has all but crumbled. It seems people can't handle the responsibility of freedom.

My brain was just overwhelmed with snarky retorts to this, but all I really have to say is (or the most I feel I should say):

WTF is that supposed to mean, and what the hell does it have to do with Day Z?

[blaaarg 8]

@the kid who said balance>realism. You know this is milsim right?

It's a milsim with a lot of unrealistic weapons / vehicule. Some weapons are only effective in a certain way (standing soldiers able to shoot & hit a target a kilometer away with .50cal in game... you can't do that irl.), others are broken since day1 (sd weapon with sd mag deal almost the same if not more damage than the regular, supersonic bullets). Bicycle climbing a 45° hill in the middle of a forest at 25km/h, tanks able to reach 300km/h, chopper still flying after multiple rpg7 / sabot round direct hit...

Look at the warefare mod in ArmA2, a lot of balance have been made because it was barly playable in some case (remember the KA52 in A2 vanilla? Then the US vs Takistan in OA, M1A2 with FLIR vs T72?)

In some case, we have to balance a *little* in order to make the mod / game a lot better. Not easier, better.

[BiGoDeViN (DayZ) 423]

Personally, I don't mind sniper rifles. My problem is kids who dupe AS50s and then snipe from Cherno hill. Then if they get killed and don't have time to ALT+F4 it's okay because they have 6 other AS50s. Then that means more AS50s are circulating on the server than should be. That's whats unbalanced in my eyes. Otherwise I see them as a necessity. If sniper rifles weren't in the game it wouldn't be nearly as cool or realistic, IMO.

[Blindingsun 233]

50.cals blow flesh apart. period. if it hits ANYTHING other than your arm or leg = you're gonna die.

hits your arms or legs. = you're gonna be missing that limb perma.

@ the people saying "50.cals don't 1HK IRL.". erm yes mate, I've used them in the field. they do.

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

Hey OP, would you ever agree with any of the arguments or is it your aim to be alwayst agains them?

I've made no secret of my intent to argue for their inclusion in the game. So, yes, my aim is to rebut arguments for their removal to the best of my ability. I feel I've been above board about that.

If I encounter an argument I cannot effectively rebut, I'll be more than happy to concede. Or at the very least say "Good one."

Incidentally please do not let this thread devolve into another PvP debate thread. There are enough of those on the forums. If you're feeling the itch to debate that topic, there are other homes for you very nearby.

[oZiix 45]

AS50

Extremely portable. Can be put together in under 3 minutes with a simple screwdriver. Was designed with portability in mind for the Navy Seals.

Weight 31 LBS!

M107

29lbs

Edited August 8, 2012 by oZiix