The PvP Discussion Thread

[jacobite 1]

Here's a couple of ideas:

1. Make PvP combat slightly less lethal' date=' to give the player under attack a change to react (maybe make weapons less accurate or players less vulnerable to firearms)

2. Some way to recognize players. X was killed by Y message would be nice. I don't know how you could implement player recognition in ArmA, but some way to tell players apart would go a long way in determining how to react when you see another player.

All in all, I would like to give non-murdering players a fighting chance, not to penalize murderers.

[/quote']

1. Being overly cautious / prepared will stop you from being under attack most of the time. Literally look around all the tree lines and possible areas of fire before moving into a town. Take it slow and don't give away your position like "Anyone in Stary Sobor?".

2. Implementing kill messages like in other fps games of the current day only serves as a punishment for those players who do kill other players.

"Xyz has killed abc"...."OMFG GUYS Xyz IS A BANDIT, DO NOT TRUST".

Now what if Xyz did have time to react to being fired at and killed the bandit firing at him which in turn makes him a bandit. He here is being punished for that self-defence.

[frostiken 0]

The problem with comparing this mod to real life' date=' as has been pointed out already more than once, in this thread and others, is that it is very far from any sort of reality.

Real life: The majority of people, even survivors under the toughest circumstances, tend to value life, favor actions that make more life possible and typically stay away from those that do not. This leads to cooperative groups forming (civilization, given enough time) which offer heightened strength, security and pooled resources in pursuit of one driving thing... staying alive. Your rare sociopath, whether they were that way to start with or developed the trait from circumstance, tends to be a loner, not trusting other sociopaths either, if he ever finds any others, and eventually dies or gets captured... with no respawn! Yes, even your sociopath will tend to be more careful if it's one life only and then game over. The fact that the game sports groups of players with sociopathic behaviors is a clear indicator that there is a very "unrealistic" imbalance.

This mod: You die, you respawn. Bad players have no fear of death because they just get back on and have another ride. Good players, rewarded in real life with the strength and security of a stable group have to survive even though players are coming and going (disconnecting) all the time. There is no equivalent to "real life" cohesion and consistency. Players that all pretty much look alike make identification and immediate trust a much more difficult matter. Poor communication abilities means difficult first contact negotiation and even more difficult "realistic" group dynamics. Bandits are rewarded through action but the lack of any implicit moral values or conscience removes any reward for non-bandits to NOT perform actions (PKing).

It's a game, not real life, and it's unbalanced.

[/quote']

Additionally, as I pointed out, people will do desperate things when they need to - but most people will not be able to kill. Why do you think you see so many robberies where the guy comes in with a gun, but leaves without firing a shot even when his victim fights back? Because the decision to take another human life is something that weighs heavily in everyone's mind except the truly deranged.

Humans are stupid, violent creatures, but are also social beings capable of empathy. I guarantee you almost none of the people on this forum, even in a survival situation, would be able to take a life. Guess what, I know for a fact that taking a life haunts your conscious even if it was in self-defense.

Nobody is killing people in this game to survive except for kill-or-be-killed. Most of the PKers are doing it for the lulz. Do you seriously think the guy who followed me through the woods and killed me with a single shot from half a kilometer away thought I was a threat to him? That my shitty Winchester and Makarov was worth taking? I found my body with all my loot intact - he shot me because it was fun.

The problem with the game is that there is no moral connection. There's no sense of the value of life. Gamers have been conditioned for YEARS to never think twice about killing someone in a game. You simply click, move on to the next guy.

You people saying 'oh this is realistic' are talking out your ass because you obviously don't understand how the human mind works, much less why this game is such a laughably bad simulation of 'survival' from a PvP perspective.

Humans are social, empathetic animals and in a survival situation, are much, much more likely to help each other than to start killing indiscriminately. If we were as bloodthirsty as this game suggests, with the vast, vast majority of players simply killing everyone they see, our species would've never left Africa.

[bodycount 83]

In a post apocalyptic world were food and supplies are scarce are you even mildly surprised someone is going to kill you for your pain medication or your beans?

But it is the complete exact polar opposite of the scenario that you just suggested. A magical invisible delivery man comes and restocks all of the magical item respawns every so often. He drives around Chernogorsk stocking the shelves and filling up barns like the DayZ Santa Claus.

Food water guns and ammo are about as scarce as trees in DayZ.

You can't have a survival game based around magical continuously refilling gear spawn points.

[Redrick (DayZ) 72]

27 pages in and I'm starting to see the same discussions come back from pages 1. I think all that needs to be said has been said.

[oktyabr 53]

Of course it has a bearing on the issue. The concentration of sociopaths in this mod grow because they are willing to kill but are rarely killed themselves. The non-bandits like myself (I haven't shot a player since the bandit skin was introduced) get killed and respawn. Some of them in turn become bandits. The bandit population grows' date=' the non-bandit one does not. Unrealistic.

[/quote']

Bandit skins and actual bandits are two different things. I know several people who have become bandits through self-defense and who certainly do not act like highwaymen all the time.

The humanity system needs to allow for more murders before people make the full transition to bandits. That way you would be better able to single out the full blown gun toting loonies versus the guy who shot one or two people in self-defense.

The population of non-bandits and the population of actual bandits can't really be compared because the humanity system as it is isn't an effective indicator of the choices someone makes in that regard.

The thing is, even though the current bandit system isn't perfect, it still has had interesting consequences. I'm not a bandit... haven't PK'd anyone since the bandit skin was introduced, not even in self defense. It has acted like a deterrent for me and for others. The reward is that regardless of what others may suggest having the non-bandit skin means simply that other non-bandits are much less likely to just shoot you on sight. Not so easy for the bandits.

Again, I think the bandit skin idea is a good first step. Working with your idea I'd rather not lower the bandit thresh hold, I'd rather see different levels of bandits... and non-bandits. How about a custom skin for bras like Munchy who start an entire thread because he's pissed someone pwned him on the "most murder" charts? Conversely, suppose you want to go around healing and giving out blood transfusions, maybe just for tips (food, ammo, whatever)? How about a custom skin with a red cross on it somewhere after you've done so much?

I like the custom skin idea, the bandit skin idea in partcular, and just wished there was a little more range available here.

[flacracker 0]

I hope the DayZ team won't make compromises about the PvP. It's the main drawing point of the game. Look at this:

This right here' date=' at the moment, is not available in any other MMO. You can grind mobs and hoard gear and team up to "raid", and kill each other with no consequences in instanced battlegrounds, but you don't have this.

The PK, the anti-PK, the risk and reward, I love it, and I've missed it for so long. If you don't like it - quit the game. There are much better PvE-oriented titles for you to play, but there are a scarce few like this.

[/quote']

But that almost never happens. Most of the time you just get shot down. It would be much better if there was a role playing server where you HAD to do this.

[jacobite 1]

In a post apocalyptic world were food and supplies are scarce are you even mildly surprised someone is going to kill you for your pain medication or your beans?

But it is the complete exact polar opposite of the scenario that you just suggested. A magical invisible delivery man comes and restocks all of the magical item respawns every so often. He drives around Chernogorsk stocking the shelves and filling up barns like the DayZ Santa Claus.

Food water guns and ammo are about as scarce as trees in DayZ.

You can't have a survival game based around magical continuously refilling gear spawn points.

Yes I have to agree with you there but I still find times were I am low on something and I am unable to find that thing because all I find are vehicle parts / windscreens / empty tin cans.

Without re-spawning items you will have a frenzy of players killing each other for those scraps and people will even more highly than now prize knifes and matches for the food supply they may offer.

If we didn't have re-spawning items we wouldn't be at the current user count as we are at today. Without those re-spawns you have the possibility and likely-hood that people will stock pile all the goodies in tents for their clans and then everywhere would be barren and everyone spawning on the coast would die of starvation within hours.

[Towel-Tango 0]

been playing for about week and have only been PK'd once (Bastard said he was friendly then shot me in the back). You know why? I act as if someone is watching me at all times. The fear of being killed is 99% of the fun in this mod. This mod isn't supposed to give everyone a fair chance or hold their hand. Its all about surviving. You realize you can shoot back right? You can kill those bandits, they're not invincible monsters that see all and know all. You NEED to be aware of your surroundings at all times. I've seen way too many players that never even noticed me until I announced myself as friendly. If you stick in a group or have some kind of awareness bandits are a problem. In this game you will DIE, end of story.

*quick edit*

I also want to stick with the 50 player limit with servers, you shouldn't be running into a survivor every 10 minutes. If you are, you're doing it wrong

[bodycount 83]

Yes I have to agree with you there but I still find times were I am low on something and I am unable to find that thing because all I find are vehicle parts / windscreens / empty tin cans.

Without re-spawning items you will have a frenzy of players killing each other for those scraps and people will even more highly than now prize knifes and matches for the food supply they may offer.

If we didn't have re-spawning items we wouldn't be at the current user count as we are at today. Without those re-spawns you have the possibility and likely-hood that people will stock pile all the goodies in tents for their clans and then everywhere would be barren and everyone spawning on the coast would die of starvation within hours.

1- Stop spawning people on the coast. Make spawns all over the entire map. Bean coast has got to end. Last night I found TEN TEN frigging dead bros and witnessed two of those murders just a trail of corpses on the beach from near the southern airfield up towards cherno. It was insane. Those bean beaches claim more lives than Dog Green Sector of Normandy.

2- I hate finding windshields myself lol. But they ARE factories so I can understand the placement of them. Industrial sector for vehicle looting.

3- We have a frenzy of people killing each other already.

RESPAWNING ITEMS HAVE TO GO! Trust me! I am a super genious!

[DeShoe 3]

If given a chance to play on a PVP or a non-pvp server with unlimited slots. ALL of you will choose non-pvp no doubt. You all talk like you're hardcore, but really you just joined the game like me when it was viral.

I would be ok with PVP if the bullets didn't do so much damage. You can risk a zombie hoard, looting another player, or both. But simply shooting everyone you see which is what a lot of people are doing is retarded. Hell give us weak NPC that you can shoot at to loot shit instead of pking others, or let it follow you for a certain time depending on your humanity. Low humanity will cause NPC to shoot at you.

I was motivated to play because of videos like CHKillroy where teamwork made it fun. Not some 1 man army sniping montage.

[jacobite 1]

RESPAWNING ITEMS HAVE TO GO! Trust me! I am a super genious!

So what happens when all the ammo is used up and no one can kill zombies?

So what happens when nothing is left but water?

Because if you're taking out re-spawns of items ... them cows sure aint coming back as well due to them being a vital item reproducing factory.

I'll tell you what happens.

No one plays DayZ any-more and that would be bad.

I would perhaps haggle with you and suggest that the spawning of such items in the game are lessened making it feel more like a scarce environment.

[DinkyDogg 1]

I think alot of this is people misunderstanding the intent of the game.

Day Z is meant to replicate the harsh apocalyptic world in a zombie outbreak.

Since their using ARMA engine, you should assume the developers are going for the most realistic scenarios that would happen in a real zombie apocalypse.

Does re spawning loot break immersion? Only Slightly

Does getting shot at and not being able to fight back break immersion? NO but it does suck

I admit, having a rifle that can one shot you does suck for game play, but im pretty sure if i got shot in the chest in real life, i WOULD DIE!

I'm sure i will get alot of people claiming "It's a game, it should be tailored to enjoyment rather then frustration"

Thats not what this game is about in my mind, this has been the most immersion game I've played yet. The people saying that murders should be marked on your map, i say no, that's what the GLOBAL/side chat is for. As soon as i see someone die, i ask them where they died, or they tell everyone. I then proceed to avoid that area.

Also on the key of the antisocial behavior, there are psychopaths in the world. Get over it.

It adds immersion, people being paranoid and mistrustful is part of human nature, has no one read lord of the flies?

I literally saw this effect take place in an hour, 1 dude got killed, he killed others, then it snowballed.

PVP is essential to the environment. It adds the threat when slowly going through a town for loot. It adds suspense when your running in the forest and you see a flare a distance away. With out it, this mod would be alot less immersive and enjoyable.

The small minority of people dieing are, as people said, are not taking their time to scan the horizon, or run in the dark to avoid being hit, or stopping and throwing a flare behind them and seeing if someones following.

Your best bet is to befriend 1 or 2 people, then remember them, add them to steam or something, and always play with them, eventually you will attract others to your band of zombie slayers and judges of righteousness.... your will become the most badass outlaws ever.

I would like to see when i died, how i died, how long i lived and how many people i helped. Those are my goals, how bout you set your own to enjoy the game to its fullest potential.

Play with friends, as ive only started last night and has made this game so much more enjoyable. Alive for 4+hours and got good loot, best moment in the game so far.

That is what this game is about.

[bodycount 83]

I think alot of this is people misunderstanding the intent of the game.

Day Z is meant to replicate the harsh apocalyptic world in a zombie outbreak.

Since their using ARMA engine' date=' you should assume the developers are going for the most realistic scenarios that would happen in a real zombie apocalypse.

Does re spawning loot break immersion? Only Slightly

[/quote']

What is "Harsh" about endlessly respawning loot?

Where is the replication of a world destroyed by zombies by having bullets and beans keep popping up in the same spot over and over?

"Most realistic scenario"? Endless infinite respawning loot? WAT?

Only SLIGHT immersion being broken by guns continually appearing inside that barn over and over and over forever?

---

So what happens when all the ammo is used up and no one can kill zombies?

So what happens when nothing is left but water?

Because if you're taking out re-spawns of items ... them cows sure aint coming back as well due to them being a vital item reproducing factory.

I'll tell you what happens.

No one plays DayZ any-more and that would be bad.

I would perhaps haggle with you and suggest that the spawning of such items in the game are lessened making it feel more like a scarce environment.

The servers get reset every day or so anyway. If it gets to the point where the entire server is cleaned out they can just reset it. The map is SO HUGE that it would take a VERY long time for this to happen.

I just don't feel like I am in a zombie apocolypse or even a semi realistic survival game.

Remember in 28 Weeks later when they ran out of water in the apartments?

Remember in Mad Max 2 when they fought over the fuel? What if Lord Humungous could just wait for gas to respawn elsewhere? What if cans of Dinki Di just magically appeared all over.

Remember in The Road when they ran out of food/water/ammo and were forced to leave and look for food elsewhere?

Remember in Dawn of the Dead remake when Andy ran out of food inside the gun store? CHIPS! HERE CHIPS!

[Diamondback 19]

There are already repercussions to r'andom murdering' present in this mod. They're the same intrinsic repercussions that so innately disuade so many of us from murder and assholery in general. You are established as untrustworthy, you gain more notoriety, which results in more attention, which results in the greater likelihood of you getting shot in the back of the head at 600 metres by a vengeful gang because no one wanted to work with you.

Everyone is vulnerable. No one is safe. For every pk looney sat, laughing maniacally into the night as he puts another 7.62 through the brainpan of a pissless bean gatherer, there is a group of coordinated anti-pkers stalking them, setting up to deliver justice with extreme prejudice.

And it's early days. You're going to see more of a pvpker interaction going on, with the new players left instead to die over and over now, not at the hands of the aforementioned 'pkers', but by some other means of expiration; of which there are many.

Seriously. I have more problems with overly-handsy zombies touching my junk up while I'm raiding than I ever do with other survivors. But the difference is that when pvp does present a problem it's unique, unpredictable, palpably tense, exhilarating and about as satisfying as any gaming experience I've had.

It is this player vulnerability that creates, in the mod, an unprecedented level of dynamic gameplay and atmosphere. There is nothing that can replicate the delicate and massively numerous interactions players can encounter as a natural byproduct of the games pvp freedom.

Have you ever, as a group of survivors, bumped into another group of survivors? What a can of worms. Hours of mexican standoffs, careful repositionings, savvy scoutings, nervous misfires and out-right-initimidation culminating in so many different results: alliances, shaky truces, polite meet and greets, tense negotiations, threatening weapon raises, surprise ambushes, city wide group vs group gun fights admist hordes of zombies, shots whip snapping past your ears one way, your buddies screaming for backup on the other all the while with a zombie crawling up the stairs towards you.

This game is pure adaptation. It is survival of the fittest. If you can't even scramble your way out of the coastal areas for long enough to gain some kind of a foothold, you're playing the game very wrong. A little improvisation, a little patience and a little common sense will go a long way.

If you kill lots of people you've got no one to work with. If you trust and try to work with everyone, you'll get killed. There is a balance to be found and it's not that hard. You just have to find a good spot, sit and watch a town for a bit and you can very clearly see who best to buddy up with.

Nerfing PVP will ruin the absolute core of this game which relys absolutely entirely on the kill-or-be-killed dynamic created.

[jacobite 1]

The servers get reset every day or so anyway. If it gets to the point where the entire server is cleaned out they can just reset it. The map is SO HUGE that it would take a VERY long time for this to happen.

I just don't feel like I am in a zombie apocolypse or even a semi realistic survival game.

You just vindicated the re-spawning of items.

Don't worry they can just reset the server and we have items again!

I personally would feel a lot more like I am in a zombie apocalypse if no one could speak in any global channels (Global,Side,Blueopfor etc) except for Admins. As well as removing all the text I don't need to see. Connections/disconnects and when players are killed.

I want to feel alone. Then when you find someone you really worry if they are friendly or foe because you haven't spoken to or seen anyone in maybe hours.

If you then reduce spawns of items a little then you add on more tense feelings to meeting someone....

[oktyabr 53]

I personally would feel a lot more like I am in a zombie apocalypse if no one could speak in any global channels (Global' date='Side,Blueopfor etc) except for Admins. As well as removing all the text I don't need to see. Connections/disconnects and when players are killed.

I want to feel alone. Then when you find someone you really worry if they are friendly or foe because you haven't spoken to or seen anyone in maybe hours.

If you then reduce spawns of items a little then you add on more tense feelings to meeting someone....

[/quote']

+1 Me too! I wish direct comm was the only channel players could use. The other day I was playing on one server where not only were retards playing their favorite sound bites from movies over SIDE tolerated, but it was actually encouraged! Totally ruined it for me. Left and found another server.

[DinkyDogg 1]

The servers get reset every day or so anyway. If it gets to the point where the entire server is cleaned out they can just reset it. The map is SO HUGE that it would take a VERY long time for this to happen.

I just don't feel like I am in a zombie apocolypse or even a semi realistic survival game.

Remember in 28 Weeks later when they ran out of water in the apartments?

Remember in Mad Max 2 when they fought over the fuel? What if Lord Humungous could just wait for gas to respawn elsewhere? What if cans of Dinki Di just magically appeared all over.

Remember in The Road when they ran out of food/water/ammo and were forced to leave and look for food elsewhere?

Remember in Dawn of the Dead remake when Andy ran out of food inside the gun store? CHIPS! HERE CHIPS!

I see your point that re spawning loot every server reset is more immersion, but then you would get people complain about spending HOURS on end going to towns too only find its empty. Also if you have the no item re-spawn, then new players who have no idea where anything will complain more when their killed for their starting food and water, and server wide deathmatch will occur for supplies... this does not seem to fix the PVP problem that this thread is about

At some point people will have to understand the developers are trying their best to balance immersion, with the the enjoyment of actually going to a town and and finding loot.

There is no 2 grades in a game, it will always be Environment meant to have immersion, but mechanics that break it. No one wants to play a fully realistic game where, towns are barren items, you starve from no food or animals to hunt in the worlds, and no zombies left since we have killed them all

And i dont think it would take too long for the map to go empty, in 4 hours me and my friends wiped out 5 towns.... how long would it take for 50, or 150 if they keep that server size?

You would eventualyl end up with servers getting reset every 6-8 hrs, compared to the 1-2 hour loot respawn... it just makes new sense to keep everything smooth and streamlined with the small loot respawn interval.

Though i do like the idea of direct comms only... though their bugged to hell and back

But hypothetically, with no money limit, servers that only have loot respawn on server reset and no pvp servers are the best options to please everyone....

[bodycount 83]

You just vindicated the re-spawning of items.

Don't worry they can just reset the server and we have items again!

You are mistaking vindication for limitation of the game engine.

The map is only so big, we can't have a map as large as the actual planet.

Players continuously transfer servers.

Errors and bugs occur on the server that necessitate resets.

Spawn points are located in the same few coastal spots which would mean eventually items would be located so far from the coast that you would not spawn with enough supplies to make the travel up to the stocked locations.

I stand FIRMLY by my suggestion to turn off item respawning.

[DinkyDogg 1]

You are mistaking vindication for limitation of the game engine.

The map is only so big' date=' we can't have a map as large as the actual planet.

Players continuously transfer servers.

Errors and bugs occur on the server that necessitate resets.

Spawn points are located in the same few coastal spots which would mean eventually items would be located so far from the coast that you would not spawn with enough supplies to make the travel up to the stocked locations.

I stand FIRMLY by my suggestion to turn off item respawning.

[/quote']

By turning off Item respawning, your damning all new players to the mod, as well as recently killed players, for a bit more immersion and difficulty

[bodycount 83]

By turning off Item respawning' date=' your damning all new players to the mod, as well as recently killed players, for a bit more immersion and difficulty

[/quote']

And that is why having everyone spawn in the same few coastal spawn locations is a bad idea.

[Panzerfaust (DayZ) 5]

By turning off Item respawning' date=' your damning all new players to the mod, as well as recently killed players, for a bit more immersion and difficulty

[/quote']

And that is why having everyone spawn in the same few coastal spawn locations is a bad idea.

And that can be easily fixed by evenly distributing spawn locations around the southern coast. A few people will probably get killed because they weren't careful enough when they were heading inland, but they'll learn eventually.

[Benzin (DayZ) 7]

There are enough repercussions as is, I got a bandit model from self defense and now everyone takes shots at me no matter who they are because killing bandits = no humanity loss and free loot.

[DinkyDogg 1]

And that is why having everyone spawn in the same few coastal spawn locations is a bad idea.

i assume the reason they set the points there is because there is more towns, and easier access for water (the ocean) and gives a landmark to follow (the coastline)

If it was your first time and you spawn in the middle of the forest inland, it is disorientating, and ARMA having the steep learning curve already, adding ontop of that would shrink the playerbase drastically (you may say that's good....)

[jacobite 1]

You are mistaking vindication for limitation of the game engine.

The map is only so big' date=' we can't have a map as large as the actual planet.

Players continuously transfer servers.

Errors and bugs occur on the server that necessitate resets.

Spawn points are located in the same few coastal spots which would mean eventually items would be located so far from the coast that you would not spawn with enough supplies to make the travel up to the stocked locations.

I stand FIRMLY by my suggestion to turn off item respawning.

[/quote']

Ever heard of Easter Island?

When the server runs out of items and it automatically resets.. that will kill any immersion you had at that time. You are just increasing the span of time it takes for it to happen. The end of the day its your intolerance of spawning items that will ruin it for you. If you want super realistic go make it yourself.

Spawning players at the coast as my friend just said to me; allows for natural progression were by players will generally start in an area were other new players are likely to be and it is known rather quickly as these players learn that the more experienced players are in the north as well as the goodies.

My friend did note on another good point. Removing Balota airfield so new players can't have easy access to possibly better guns at the start of their gaming experience. Why? Its far to easy to find an AK or an MP5 SD in Balota. Giving you an obscene advantage over other players around your skill level.

I know for a fact that some players will re-spawn themselves until they are near the Balota airfield because they can't be arsed to walk to the guns.

[Panzerfaust (DayZ) 5]

If given a chance to play on a PVP or a non-pvp server with unlimited slots. ALL of you will choose non-pvp no doubt. You all talk like you're hardcore' date=' but really you just joined the game like me when it was viral.

I would be ok with PVP if the bullets didn't do so much damage. You can risk a zombie hoard, looting another player, or both. But simply shooting everyone you see which is what a lot of people are doing is retarded. Hell give us weak NPC that you can shoot at to loot shit instead of pking others, or let it follow you for a certain time depending on your humanity. Low humanity will cause NPC to shoot at you.

I was motivated to play because of videos like CHKillroy where teamwork made it fun. Not some 1 man army sniping montage.

[/quote']

Groups aren't that hard to find. Look harder, you'll find one, I promise.