The PvP Discussion Thread

[The Burned Man 20]

Bandits don't find groups and they get shot on sight.

I would say that already are repercussions.

If you don't like the game in general, don't play it.

I don't get why people buy something they don't like and then demand that it will be turned into something that fits their taste.

That is not how this works.

[oktyabr 53]

Read every post before I decided to come in here and play a bit of "devil's advocate".

@swayzesghost - Your argument is a common one as evidenced by the great number of similar threads already on this forum. Like most of them a thread with a title like yours will automatically summon a certain faction of these forums and invite them to comment, perhaps not the folks you would have preferred. Don't take it too personally; it's the nature of the beast here.

Your suggestion, on the other hand, I think is one made out of frustration and really not practical if you think it through. For starters, where do you draw the line on who gets the punishment and who doesn't? PVP is a dynamic aspect of this mod and it's never going away. Sometimes you have to kill other players to protect yourself and what's yours. I got shot yesterday fair and square by a guy that watched me run into an apartment to escape a charging horde, where I shot maybe 10 zombies one by one as they tried to follow me up the stairs. I looted the upstairs and was on my way down when he (a bandit) cleverly was laying in wait. literally prone amongst the fallen zombies. I tried to avoid the gunfire but he got me... and all my loot. My bad decision, not his.

The humanity/bandit skin idea shows me that the mods recognize an imbalance in the game and are trying to correct it. The bandit skin is a first step in the right direction but doesn't have to stop there. Others have posted ideas concerning an expanded skin system... one went as far as to recommend putting the most frequent murderers on the server into a skin consisting of a bright orange jump suit (later expanded to include flashing security anklet!) as one extreme! The fact is that this idea IS working but I wouldn't consider it a finished system yet. Since the bandit skin came into play I haven't shot a single player (I would have shot the bandit I mentioned, but chose, wrongly, to try and avoid the fire instead). My NOT having the bandit skin has had it's own rewards... I've teamed up with other non-bandit survivors plenty of times after pointing guns at each other for a few seconds. Others just ignore me and we go our own ways. Would it have ended that way if I had been wearing a bandit skin? Very likely NOT.

But essentially this imbalance comes from this mod currently existing as a PVP game with a slight zombie flavored overtone. This is where the true balance lies. Spread the loot out more evenly, include extra water sources and more food to be found in the wilderness and the player base starts spreading out more as well. Make zombies spawn off the dry edges of the map and migrate towards the coast, perhaps in search of fresh food.... this makes the wilderness as dangerous as it should be, and the popular gucci-gun shopping sites like the NW Airfield one of the most dangerous sections of the map, even if you are the only player up there.

Tweak the dynamic weather system so it's sync'd between players, have exposure to lots of rain bring about hypothermia (shaking, like in pain, possible health reduction as well), curable with camp fires (something bandit groups don't like much), staying indoors out of the rain, and possibly extra equipment like rain gear. Besides the rain gear the other bits favor the cooperative groups while the lone sociopathic killer with a sniper rifle slowly dies shivering alone on top of some building. Incorporate more medical treatment that requires it be done by another player, such as mending a broken leg (currently requiring morphine?).

These are just a few suggestions. The point is that the devs recognize the problem and are trying to balance it. Support your favorite idea if you like but be careful of suggesting anything that paints a picture with such a broad brush.

[oktyabr 53]

The problem with comparing this mod to real life, as has been pointed out already more than once, in this thread and others, is that it is very far from any sort of reality.

Real life: The majority of people, even survivors under the toughest circumstances, tend to value life, favor actions that make more life possible and typically stay away from those that do not. This leads to cooperative groups forming (civilization, given enough time) which offer heightened strength, security and pooled resources in pursuit of one driving thing... staying alive. Your rare sociopath, whether they were that way to start with or developed the trait from circumstance, tends to be a loner, not trusting other sociopaths either, if he ever finds any others, and eventually dies or gets captured... with no respawn! Yes, even your sociopath will tend to be more careful if it's one life only and then game over. The fact that the game sports groups of players with sociopathic behaviors is a clear indicator that there is a very "unrealistic" imbalance.

This mod: You die, you respawn. Bad players have no fear of death because they just get back on and have another ride. Good players, rewarded in real life with the strength and security of a stable group have to survive even though players are coming and going (disconnecting) all the time. There is no equivalent to "real life" cohesion and consistency. Players that all pretty much look alike make identification and immediate trust a much more difficult matter. Poor communication abilities means difficult first contact negotiation and even more difficult "realistic" group dynamics. Bandits are rewarded through action but the lack of any implicit moral values or conscience removes any reward for non-bandits to NOT perform actions (PKing).

It's a game, not real life, and it's unbalanced.

[Panzerfaust (DayZ) 5]

Without law enforcement or accountability for actions' date=' it's been proven time and again that plenty of humans are not benign in nature.

[/quote']

This 100x.

T. Penn, a player's 'life' in this game has value because of the time they spend into developing their character's loadout. Just because people get paranoid that others pose a threat to them (regardless of whether or not they actually do) because they're afraid others might take their stuff and consequently they start shooting people does not mean that they're a bunch of infantile CoD noobies.

After I killed a guy with a nice loadout and took his things, I got a LOT more careful about who I interacted with and how I interacted with them. Unfortunately, not everyone is as docile as you seem to be, Penn. I kept that in mind when interacting with others and I wound up killing someone else because they started acting differently when I revealed that I was carrying good equipment on me.

Of course, I then tripped and fell off of a hospital roof, so that was all for naught.

There are going to be people who are trusting, good-natured, and civic-minded and who want to help each other out, and then there are going to be the paranoid people with guns who look after number one first and everybody else second. These people usually are careful and avoid contact with others, though the more militant ones will proactively shoot people in order to minimize the risk to their person. Also somewhere in the mix are the bandits who rob and kill people for their things as a matter of course.

You'd see all three of those groups in the real world if the zombie apocalypse ever actually happens. Here, the latter two groups are a bit more prevalent than they would be in the real world because of the copious number of guns lying around and the fact that this is the internet and there are respawns (Sans hard-earned gear. If you've really died four times, you should know that death has more consequences then having to walk a mile or two to get back to where you were). There are still many, many people who fall into the first category.

The game is fine as-is. It's as realistic as it's going to be under the circumstances. You don't need any artificial, gamey balance system. All you need to do is designate the more egregious sociopaths as such (bandit skin), and let the rest take care of itself.

P.S. Having to occasionally shoot someone because they pose a threat to you does not make the game a deathmatch.

Secondly I can deal quite well with hostile players, if not avoiding completely, I can probably take the lot of them down. But does that mean I want to play the game on their terms? If I have to result to deathmatching I'd rather not play at all.

Playing the game on their terms means bending over and letting them shoot you. Try actually firing back and killing the whole lot of those assholes and see how it feels.

[swayzesghost 14]

Read every post before I decided to come in here and play a bit of "devil's advocate".

@swayzesghost - Your argument is a common one as evidenced by the great number of similar threads already on this forum. Like most of them a thread with a title like yours will automatically summon a certain faction of these forums and invite them to comment' date=' perhaps not the folks you would have preferred. Don't take it too personally; it's the nature of the beast here.

Your suggestion, on the other hand, I think is one made out of frustration and really not practical if you think it through.

[/quote']

I don't agree. There are practical ways to decide whether a particular action was a "murder" and not just a kill. Just because I didn't bother to expound on the design possibility doesn't mean that there is none.

Agree about the loot etc, however. The best loot should be able to spawn anywhere. When the exploration aspect of the game is encouraged, things will be a lot more fun.

[Bandit (DayZ) 3]

Read every post before I decided to come in here and play a bit of "devil's advocate".

@swayzesghost - Your argument is a common one as evidenced by the great number of similar threads already on this forum. Like most of them a thread with a title like yours will automatically summon a certain faction of these forums and invite them to comment' date=' perhaps not the folks you would have preferred. Don't take it too personally; it's the nature of the beast here.

Your suggestion, on the other hand, I think is one made out of frustration and really not practical if you think it through.

[/quote']

I don't agree. There are practical ways to decide whether a particular action was a "murder" and not just a kill. Just because I didn't bother to expound on the design possibility doesn't mean that there is none.

Agree about the loot etc, however. The best loot should be able to spawn anywhere. When the exploration aspect of the game is encouraged, things will be a lot more fun.

We would love to hear your profound insight on how this could possibly be done with the arma engine.

Loot is spawning fine for me, akm's all over the place for a start also, but seeing as your complaints are coming from the main city areas maybe you didn't know that.

[oktyabr 53]

I don't agree. There are practical ways to decide whether a particular action was a "murder" and not just a kill. Just because I didn't bother to expound on the design possibility doesn't mean that there is none.

I too would like to know how you would propose that is accomplished. The way your original post reads it just says "PK". Over half the people that play this game now wear the bandit skin from PK, many of them from simply shooting first or being a better shot than the bandit that tried to do them in. If "PK" alone is your only qualifier then over half of the people playing this game would die with a single bullet from anything.

[Dustfallen 2]

The problem with comparing this mod to real life' date=' as has been pointed out already more than once, in this thread and others, is that it is very far from any sort of reality.

Real life: The majority of people, even survivors under the toughest circumstances, tend to value life, favor actions that make more life possible and typically stay away from those that do not. This leads to cooperative groups forming (civilization, given enough time) which offer heightened strength, security and pooled resources in pursuit of one driving thing... staying alive. Your rare sociopath, whether they were that way to start with or developed the trait from circumstance, tends to be a loner, not trusting other sociopaths either, if he ever finds any others, and eventually dies or gets captured... with no respawn! Yes, even your sociopath will tend to be more careful if it's one life only and then game over. The fact that the game sports groups of players with sociopathic behaviors is a clear indicator that there is a very "unrealistic" imbalance.

This mod: You die, you respawn. Bad players have no fear of death because they just get back on and have another ride. Good players, rewarded in real life with the strength and security of a stable group have to survive even though players are coming and going (disconnecting) all the time. There is no equivalent to "real life" cohesion and consistency. Players that all pretty much look alike make identification and immediate trust a much more difficult matter. Poor communication abilities means difficult first contact negotiation and even more difficult "realistic" group dynamics. Bandits are rewarded through action but the lack of any implicit moral values or conscience removes any reward for non-bandits to NOT perform actions (PKing).

It's a game, not real life, and it's unbalanced.

[/quote']

In a sense yes, but also in a sense no. No you cannot really compare this to real life as it stands now, But you have to look at how things will be in an apocalypse situation, not how they are now.

Also, the thing about respawning, etc, has no bearing on the issue. They represent the same dangers that would be presented in the mod scenario. The servers, though, are limited to only a few people, so it would be neccessity for them to respawn if killed in order to facilitate the representation that they make. (I.E.- small server of 50 players, means it would be too easy to eliminate the very real threat they represent)

So respawn or no, they are just as neccessary for what they represent as zombies are.

[bodycount 83]

Rocket needs to change the name of the mod. Zombies are but a tin can in the barn of the PvP that this game is. Remove the zombies, rename the mod and move on.

[oktyabr 53]

Of course it has a bearing on the issue. The concentration of sociopaths in this mod grow because they are willing to kill but are rarely killed themselves. The non-bandits like myself (I haven't shot a player since the bandit skin was introduced) get killed and respawn. Some of them in turn become bandits. The bandit population grows, the non-bandit one does not. Unrealistic.

[Bandit (DayZ) 3]

Rocket needs to change the name of the mod. Zombies are but a tin can in the barn of the PvP that this game is. Remove the zombies' date=' rename the mod and move on.

[/quote']

Maybe you should even take over the mod for him?

[bodycount 83]

Rocket needs to change the name of the mod. Zombies are but a tin can in the barn of the PvP that this game is. Remove the zombies' date=' rename the mod and move on.

[/quote']

Maybe you should even take over the mod for him?

Maybe he needs an adviser to explain to him how the last 25 years of video games have gone.

[MechaGodzilla 5]

Because there's been so many open world survival/zombie games to draw experience from.

[Bandit (DayZ) 3]

Rocket needs to change the name of the mod. Zombies are but a tin can in the barn of the PvP that this game is. Remove the zombies' date=' rename the mod and move on.

[/quote']

Maybe you should even take over the mod for him?

Maybe he needs an adviser to explain to him how the last 25 years of video games have gone.

And he had advisors at BIS, they all seemed to think it would never work if I heard right on the interview he did.

[b00ce 5]

Good grief, I thought the people whining over ArmA3 being "unrealistic" were bad.

PvP* isn't going anywhere and there will ALWAYS be people that prey on the weak. Don't think you can change that, you need to modify YOUR behavior to account for the fact that there are assholes out there.

If you know what you're doing you'll survive, even in spite of there being shitty situations thrown at you. ArmA in general is unforgiving, this mod makes it even more so. Go slow, be patient, watch your surroundings and don't EVER give your position away. This means NOT blasting through side channel; "I'm at NW Airfield, anyone there?" You will get murdered and your beans stolen. If you can't do this, you rate what you get. Perhaps you guys should attain one of the requirements of the mod before you continue playing, BALLS. You have to learn to live with the fact that you'll die. A lot. Whether from zombies, other players or ArmA's quirkiness.

Good rule of thumb:

"If you have to think twice about something, it is a BAD IDEA."

*Read: Survival at ALL costs.

[acebane 268]

Just saying, this mod would suck without PVP.

If you ask me, there SHOULDN'T be a bandit skin. Because IDK about you bandits, but if I were a bandit, I'd deceive people by dressing/looking as friendly as possible. No one is really gonna wear torn clothes, a spiked helmet and throw on a dynamite belt.

But the developer hooked people up, the people who don't like PVP, with players now getting the bandit skin. So Congrats on that. Although to say "YOU ARE A PKER!!!" Uhm, yeah. Everyone IS and WILL be. If they won't, they'll die and be on these forums again. You need to kill to defend yourself from other bandits, believe it or not, bandits CAN BE normal players just like you. Only difference is they had to defend themselves and they won.

Please, for the love of god, stop complaining about PVP. Granted, yes it sucks getting killed when all you have is a stupid makarov - but it's the way it is in the apocalypse. How do you think people will be IRL if an apocalypse DID happen? You bet your ass it'd take the same evolutionary steps this mod has.

Start off friendly and nice, everyone helps. OH NO, SOMEONE KILLED SOMEONE.. Then eventually everyone is wary of everyone. Granted, it wouldn't be so common to see "Bandits" or people who kill others for their loot IRL but we're dealing with a sandbox environment on one region. It's the way it is.

To give repercussions for PVPing (or as the title says, "random murder"), not only is it unsound, I don't think there is a way to do that. As it's been said before, the bandit skin and the fact that ppl pretty much shoot you on site is a pretty big repercussion already.

In a zombie apocalypse, I'll use The Walking Dead series as my basis for this, people WILL kill people for what they have. There's nothing that "penalizes" those people in the walking dead for killing people, why should it here? This mod/game is not for the faint of heart. It's UNFORGIVING, it's BRUTAL and you will learn to be careful or else you'll die every time.

Ps. Zombies are hard solo, specially if you get caught crawling in a big village. You're practically dead. IDK about you but I've had MANY close calls with zombies. All I'd say is add some spawn points in the forests and we'll be good.\

Edit: Very well said, B00ce

[Bandit (DayZ) 3]

Because there's been so many open world survival/zombie games to draw experience from.

Maybe he needs someone to hold his hand in the apocolypse. That's the only thing I've seen games get better at as far as gameplay goes in the last 25 years.

[sheppydog 0]

Frankly I love the mod, and I like that there is mistrust. but as of now its really just turned into deathmatch with some zombies thrown in. hopefully with direct comm's installed this will be fixed. but right now its not even about zombies.

You are rewarded a lot more by killing other players then sneaking through zombie infested towns.

[bodycount 83]

I would argue that very few people are against PvP and the majority of the complaints are that there is no fucking focus.

No direction.

No objective.

No goal.

NO FUCKING REASON to PvP other than the fear of someone killing you just for the fuck of it or to kill someone just for the fuck of it as the maker of the mod rocket even pointed out.

He killed someone not because he needed their shit, not because they were a threat, not because he was low on ammo, or food or water or because they shot at him or pointed a gun at him. JUST FOR THE FUCK OF IT!

That is the end all be all of DayZ . Deathmatch style PvP for no purpose other than Lulz with a few NPC zombies thrown in the mix.

FUCK ME it's like you people have never played a video game before! What would Counter-Strike be without hostage rescue or bomb planting/defusal? It would be two people hiding behind a box for a couple hours waiting for the other person to walk into their camped concealed location to shoot them. Seriously SERIOUSLY DO YOU PEOPLE NOT PLAY VIDEO GAMES?

I want to smash my face into my keyboard.

Sorry about the raging rant but I am at the end of my rope watching people fumble around the PvP like this is the first time they have ever experienced it before in their lifetimes.

Do you not understand how the evolution of FPS has been? It started with quake like deathmatch arena kill people just to kill get a high score. Then it evolved to actual objectives after people learned that just killing for a higher score got stale. The objectives of carry the flag, or attack and defend, hostage rescue, assassination. Acquire resources, even base building.

There are some INCREDIBLY BRILLIANT ideas presented in DayZ. The flares and chemsticks are genius! They look incredible and add extreme atmosphere and literally make the survival horror aspect of the zombie game. GREAT job on making them. The medical system is VERY well done. Kudso to the mod team for the work they did on it. Bloodbags, injectors, painpills, blood loss. All really cool.

But god damn it's like you have absolutely no one on your team that has ever PvPed in any video game before. NONE of yall have ever played World of Warcraft? Counter-Strike? Starcraft?

[franko1932 0]

I believe that this mod achieves it's goal based on the complaints about PVP. This mod, as I understand it, is not meant to be JUST a zombie mod. It is a survival mod with a zombie element, as well as, a human interaction element. Hypothetically if a situation such as this occurred in the world, the human vs. human interaction would be just as dangerous as any human vs. zombie interaction.

[Freyar 8]

Of course it has a bearing on the issue. The concentration of sociopaths in this mod grow because they are willing to kill but are rarely killed themselves. The non-bandits like myself (I haven't shot a player since the bandit skin was introduced) get killed and respawn. Some of them in turn become bandits. The bandit population grows' date=' the non-bandit one does not. Unrealistic.

[/quote']

Respawning, unrealistic.

[Bandit (DayZ) 3]

...

But god damn it's like you have absolutely no one on your team that has ever PvPed in any video game before. NONE of yall have ever played World of Warcraft? Counter-Strike? Starcraft?

Man your opening yourself up for a world of hurt even trying to compare arma to any of those games.

Have you ever seen the movie "the road"?

[bodycount 83]

...

But god damn it's like you have absolutely no one on your team that has ever PvPed in any video game before. NONE of yall have ever played World of Warcraft? Counter-Strike? Starcraft?

Man your opening yourself up for a world of hurt even trying to compare arma to any of those games.

Have you ever seen the movie "the road"?

In the Road they had two fucking bullets.

How much would you have appreciated Cormac McCarthy's work if the protagonist had a Sniper Rifle and all the food they could ever eat and camped in the woods for the whole movie sniping everyone they saw?

The old man. BOOM HEADSHOT!

The thief. BOOM HEADSHOT!

His wife wants to leave. BOOM HEADSHOT!

The piano doesn't want to be burned up. BOOM HEADSHOT!

The road my ass.

[vert 0]

Just make a server that has no friendly fire and call it a day.

[Thesreyn 18]

ITT:

Players butthurt over getting shot insult other players who disagree with them. When suggested to not run around like a fucking moron in town, claim they are the only ones who know how best this mod should work.

I've done my share of PvP. I've had to to survive, or because I've needed supplies. I've also avoided PvP, or tried initiating conversation only to end up getting killed. Such is life. Respawn and move on, find new gear, find new people, get revenge if you want to and can.

There's so much complaining about this not being realistic, or that PvP is too prevalent, or whatever. This is a survival mod and the object is to survive, against zombies, against the environment and against other players. If you can't handle the fact that other players WILL kill you, I don't know why you're even playing this mod. Go play Left 4 Dead, it seems to be far more up your alley.

Your initial complaints are literally all built out of butthurt. Maybe the player who killed you needed supplies but was afraid you were a bandit. Maybe he wanted to get the drop on you first. Maybe he just wanted to kill you. There are plenty of players on the servers who are happy to work together, just yesterday there was a guy running around playing doctor for anyone who was injured, and there is a lot of chat on the servers about working together. The fact that you got killed should not be something you come on here to complain about so... poorly and viciously. Get over it and respawn, play the game again, see if you can try something different, beat a previous goal, whatever. Because frankly, all it sounds like right now is someone crying because they lost their hard-won beans to a better player.

---

In the Road they had two fucking bullets.

How much would you have appreciated Cormac McCarthy's work if the protagonist had a Sniper Rifle and all the food they could ever eat and camped in the woods for the whole movie sniping everyone they saw?

The old man. BOOM HEADSHOT!

The thief. BOOM HEADSHOT!

His wife wants to leave. BOOM HEADSHOT!

The piano doesn't want to be burned up. BOOM HEADSHOT!

The road my ass.

You say there's no focus or goals in the mod. Make your own. It's fairly apparent you've never played minecraft, or sim city or the like (at least, not enough to warrant your opinion being valid).

This is a survival mod, but after that you need to make your own goals. Some people choose to PvP, other people choose to do other things, like acquire vehicles, or help other players. The limits you perceive are placed there by you, so go and break them and have fun.